1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Chosen People and Christianity.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2017
    Messages:
    6,811
    Ratings:
    +1,322
    Religion:
    Christian
    Read the book of Romans. Paul covers it explicitly.
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    20,206
    Ratings:
    +29,051
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheist
    The Moasaic Law can never be invalidated and G-d will never reject His people Israel.

    Genesis 17:7:

    And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.


    Deut 12:1:

    These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth.


    Deut 29:28:

    The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

    Psalm 111:7-8:

    The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


    Ezekiel 37:24:

    My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd.They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.



    G-d will never reject Israel

    Jeremiah 31:35-36:

    Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar – the Lord of hosts is His name: If this fixed order were ever to cease from My presence, says the Lord, then also the offspring of Israel would cease to be a nation before Me forever. Thus says the Lord: If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will reject all the offspring of Israel because of all they have done.

    Ezekiel 11:19-20:

    And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Beth Stitely

    Beth Stitely Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Ratings:
    +27
    Religion:
    Christian
    the Jews are "chosen" because the Messiah comes through the Jewish line. Even the Jews believe that the Messiah comes via
    Judaism.

    We are also told that the Torah (Law) is not made invalid by Jesus. It is fulfilled by Jesus. We are told that not one lick of the Law will go away. Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by the OT.

    Paul also tells us in the letter to the Romans that God has not forgotten the Jews and that His promises to them still stand.

    Why do you no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah?
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    20,206
    Ratings:
    +29,051
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheist
    He fulfilled none of the prophecies.

    But please, this thread is not about that :)
     
  5. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Mihi Quaestio Factus Sum

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,829
    Ratings:
    +1,399
    Religion:
    Ordinariate Catholic
    Didn't think they were. Christ redeemed humanity. All of it.
     
  6. Corvus

    Corvus Feathered eyeball connoisseur

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    602
    Ratings:
    +226
    Religion:
    Grokk-ism
    It is laughable parochial drivel.
     
  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    Obviously, we shall not see eye to eye on this. However, ponder this:
    1 Kings 19:18 And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
    Psalm 106:24-26 And they got to contemning the desirable land; They had no faith in his word. 25 And they kept grumbling in their tents; They did not listen to the voice of Jehovah. 26 So he proceeded to raise his hand [in an oath] concerning them, That he would make them fall in the wilderness,​

    Only the obedient ones were permitted to survive, the ones who had faith in God. He kills all the evildoers and those without faith.

    He is also not the God only of Israel, but of all humanity. So, rather than reject Israel, he has widened the scope of those he calls Israel. In this manner, it is not of the flesh but of the hearth, one becomes of Israel - spiritual Israel. All, Jew or Gentile, may become one of God's chosen people now, if they obey and have faith.

    I don't expect you to agree. However, you totally avoided my points about the temple and the priesthood.
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    20,206
    Ratings:
    +29,051
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheist
    There is a verse in the prophets that says Israel will be without sacrifices and so on. The Messiah will build the 3rd Temple etc. and bring sacrifices.

    Hosea 3:4-
    For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or household gods.
     
    #48 Rival, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  9. corynski

    corynski Reality First!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    383
    Ratings:
    +152
    Religion:
    none ........
    Religions evolve, as do languages and everything else..... nothing really stays the same does it? You and I, and everyone else have been chosen to exist briefly, then vanish without a trace. Humans create gods and goddesses at will apparently. See Michael Jordan, "Encyclopedia of GODS - Over 2,500 Deities of the World."
     
  10. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    Judaism as it is today, is based on the Talmud and the people that call themselves 'Jews' are not 'Judeans' (People who live in Judea) in the Old Testament or the people of the Roman province of Iudaea, which was renamed Syria Palestine ( Israel-Philistia ) in 135 CE, therefore the Iudaeans became known as Syrians or Palestinians.

    They just don't seem to understand that the so-called 'Chosen People' mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are all gone or assimilated, it does not apply to anyone in the 21st century, but still they go on and on and convince people they are 'chosen' and have the right to live in Palestine along with Syria.

    Not only is Palestine part of the fictional land agreement with God, but Syria , all of the west banks of the Euphrates River, is that the reason Israel won't defend Syria, just watching it's neighbour Syria suffer, waiting for an opportunity to steal its land. in fact they already have, they nabbed the Golan heights.
     
    #50 Magus, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  11. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    3,271
    Ratings:
    +377
    All of Israel was chosen to be the first nation God would purify -and through which the whole world would eventually be blessed.

    "Jews" today are essentially the house of Judah -and many (certainly not all) "Christians" are also Israelite, but of the house of Israel.

    The apostles were Israelites, but not necessarily of Judah.
    When the New Testament refers, for example, to "the Jew's feast of tabernacles", it is because the house of Judah and house of Israel had been split by civil war.

    Most "Christians" believe that "Jews" will eventually realize -when he returns -that Christ is indeed the Messiah -but did not fulfill all when he lived on Earth as a man.

    Though many Christians believe Old Testament law to be void or unnecessary, that is not actually the case. Only some judgments under the law were actually changed by Christ.

    There are many prophecies in the old and new testaments which concern the Jews -house of Judah -specifically -and "Christians" generally believe all of those have been and/or will be fulfilled.

    Though not widely known or understood, prophecy indicates that the breach between the two houses will be healed when the house of Israel joins the house of Judah in the area around Jerusalem -to dwell together there as a human nation.

    While human nations will continue on Earth -rebuilding, repopulating, etc., after "great tribulation" and the "great and terrible day of the Lord", those made immortal will be of those " in Christ" of all nations -and will be immortal kings and priests under Christ -whereas human Israel will bless the Earth as the human administration of God's government -though humans will continue to be made immortal and eventually create throughout the universe -which was "formed... to be inhabited".

    As God purified the house of Judah first and very intensely, God will also save and bless Judah first.

    …Zech 12:6"In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7"The LORD also will save the tents of Judahfirst, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified aboveJudah. 8"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.…
     
  12. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    So the Israelis or Jews are pure and chosen by God, which means Palestinians are Immure and not chosen by God, therefore they deserve to die , that seems to be belief of many Jews & Christians here,

    Was Jesus was a young Palestinian in occupied territories?

    The Bible likes to use so many different names for the same people, Samaria is synonymous with Israel .

    Hosea 13:16 ( Chosen people dashed to pieces )
    The people of Samaria ( = Israel) must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

    The second part of the Old Testament , these 'chosen people' rebelled became evil, so he cut off these people and gave the Land of Israel & Judea to a Persian monarch called Cyrus, the actual 'Messiah', these books are referring too ( Not a 1st century nobody), see Isaiah 45:1, 61:1, Ezra 1:2 , it seems people whom quote the second part of the Old Testament, have no idea what they are reading.
     
    #52 Magus, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  13. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    Yes, I know the OT well. Again, we cannot see eye to eye. You look at this with a simple interpretation that fits your nation of Israel. Because of my belief in Christ and the NT, I believe that God is not for Israel alone, but is for all mankind. As He promised Abraham: (Genesis 18:18) " . . .all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him. . ."

    In this then, by means of Messiah, the Lamb of God, forgiveness is obtained for all, Jew and Gentile, righteous person. (Isaiah 53:12, please read the chapter) "and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    Israel in the prophecies of Isaiah and others - that still will be fulfilled in ours time and later refer to Israel as all earth, all nations. All nations who survive the destruction of the wicked in Armageddon, that is.

    The following quote is a bit long, but please read it. It is about the Messianic Kingdom:
    Ps 72:2 He will judge thy people with righteousness, And thy poor with justice. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, And the hills, in righteousness. 4 He will judge the poor of the people, He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear thee while the sun endureth, And so long as the moon, throughout all generations. 6 He will come down like rain upon the mown grass, As showers that water the earth. 7 In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth.
    Ps 37: 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and he shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the land, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. ​

    So, while the Word of God, the inspired utterances of God came through the Jews, the Messiah sprang from their flesh, the tribe of Judah, the King of David - all earth shall become Israel in a spiritual sense. As Daniel says:
    2: 44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. ​

    Please read chapter 7 of Daniel by yourself. You will see that God no longer considers only the small part of earth where the nation of Israel is. All earth shall become Paradise, Israel, ruled by the king of God sitting on King David's throne.

    So, this may be where you have a different view than the NT teaches. But, you are welcome to ask questions and make comments to the above.
     
  14. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    It seems Jews & Christians have similar beliefs, "The upcoming Messiah will build the 3rd Temple", or "Jesus was already the Messiah, but he will return again upon the construction of the 3rd Temple' .

    Hosea 3:4
    For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without King

    Israel as it is today, is not a Kingdom, it is a republic, therefore these prophecies are Invalid and not referring to the Israel of today, rather it referring to the Period between King Hoshea and King Cyrus, for the so-called 3rd temple messianic prophecy to work, Israel would have to become a Kingdom, is that what Israelis want?

    Daniel was contemporary with Nebuchadnezzar II and the upcoming King at that time was Cyrus.

    Daniel 9:25
    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Isaiah 45:1
    Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden

    Isaiah 45:13
    I have raised him (Cyrus) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts

    Ezra 1:2
    Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

    These Books where already fulfilled in the 5th century BCE * before they where written.

    All the nonsensical claims of 3rd, 4th, 5th temples or numerous coming of the Messiah is pure fantasy.
     
    #54 Magus, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  15. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    20,206
    Ratings:
    +29,051
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheist
    G-d is not just for Israel and never has been. The non-Jews have the Noahide laws. All the characters in Genesis are not Jews, but are considered very righteous; figures such as Noach, Abraham, Joseph and others. So we don't need a Messiah for all nations to worship G-d. They were doing that the whole time. In the Greek and Roman periods they were called 'G-d Fearers' - non-Jews who had attached themselves to the Jewish people and agreed to abide by the Noachide Code and become a Ger.

    Again, Messiah is not needed for anyone, Jew or goy, to obtain forgiveness. The people of Nineveh were warned by Jonah to repent, which they did and they were spared. They were a nation of non-Jews.

    Isaiah is talking about the nation of Israel here, not Messiah. In the original Hebrew scrolls there are no chapter divisions and chapter 53 just continues straight from chapter 52. Chapter 52 talks about 'My Servant', a term referring to the Nation of Israel. See here for a Jewish commentary on this chapter in Isaiah.

    Verse?

    And this hasn't happened. It's supposed to happen when Messiah comes. Which he clearly hasn't.

    And this hasn't happened yet either. So your messiah failed.

    Again see here for the Jewish perspective. I am quite clear on the Christian perspective. I spent years as a Christian.
     
    #55 Rival, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,564
    Ratings:
    +9,966
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Many Baha'is believe that the nation of Israel will be the first nation to recognise the returned Messiah or the second coming of Christ. In that manner their 'redemption' shall be complete and the Jews will be distinguished amongst all people for having brought in a new era of world peace. 'He who is last shall later be first...' (Matthew 20:16)

    How that idea sits in Christian theology is anyone's guess. Christians have such diverse beliefs about the Parousia or return, as they do about the relationship of the Jews with God.
     
  17. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I am expecting the foretold Great Tribulation to begin any day now, within a certain framework. Already, there are reports of sightings of the sign of Christ, though, it remains 3rd person stuff not well enough verified.
     
  18. RedDragon94

    RedDragon94 Love everyone, meditate often

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,704
    Ratings:
    +727
    They're the people God chose to reveal the Messiah (Moshiach) through.
     
  19. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    34,333
    Ratings:
    +19,576
    What a coincidence that a god of a religion would choose the people from which that religion originated.
     
  20. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    20,206
    Ratings:
    +29,051
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheist
    It originated from them because G-d chose them :D

    But try telling Magus that. He's on with some Persians-recieved-Torah-first BS which there is no historical evidence for whatsoever.
     
Loading...