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Is Religious Faith a Choice

  • Yes it is!

    Votes: 16 34.8%
  • No it is not!

    Votes: 10 21.7%
  • Yes and No, I can explain.

    Votes: 18 39.1%
  • I am Undecided

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I offer Quotes from a Faith to demonstrate.

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • I offer my thoughts of faith in response.

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • Total voters
    46

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sure, it’s a choice!

I’ve known many who loved what they were learning about Jehovah God and His Word, the future hope & so forth, but when they realized they had to change their lifestyle, i.e., stop sleeping around, quit getting drunk, etc., they didn’t want it enough…”it” being God’s blessing, an approved relationship w/ Him.

He’s got standards, and there are some things we cannot practice according to His Word. (1 Corinthians 6 9,10,18; Colossians 3:5-6) Now, I do not mean we can’t make mistakes occasionally.…None of us are perfect.

But making a practice of doing what God condemns… that’s a whole ‘nother story!
And some just don’t want to change.

IMO.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Dictionary meanings of words is not good enough.

For word definitions? What other reference tool do you suggest we use?

You can sit all day and speak of burden of proof. But if you are not sure of your own epistemology, it is just an arbitrary situational pleasure for you. Nothing more, nothing less.

The epistemological standard will be applied when and if the objective evidence is offered, so far nada. In the meantime I have applied my epistemology to the claim, that's why I am withholding belief, as not one shred of objective evidence has ever been demonstrated. Why on earth would I set a different standard for god claims than any other claims?

So as usual, either you respond with a bit of humility, or respond with ad hominem.

Go ahead Sheldon.

I wasn't aware of using any ad hominem, let alone usually using it? However do please quote any of my posts where you claim I was using this, and I will see what the context was.

The burden of proof lies with the claim, one cannot guess what the evidence should be before it is offered, that is absurd, however I have repeatedly said my criteria for belief is that sufficient objective evidence be demonstrated to support any claim. The fact you are wasting time and energy arguing about epistemological limits, rather than demonstrating the most compelling piece of evidence you think you have, is not an unusual response in my experience, and the inference is pretty obvious.

It's odd how often theists try to blame atheists for their disbelief, as if the the dearth of objective evidence for any deity is somehow an unfair observation they make?

What criteria do you set for all the deities you disbelieve in? You can't possibly have examined them all, let alone applied your method for believing this one you claim is real?
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) was a Messenger of God.

You will need to demsonrate more than a bare claim before I will believe this, or any other claim.

That is what 8 see when I read the power contained within the Message recorded in the Quran.

A subjective opinion is not going to convince me, and even were it enough, there are simply too many theists with competing deities, making identical claims for them, for it to have any objective value.

It is your life to see faith, however you choose to do.

I have no use for blind faith, as one could quite demonstrably believe literally anything using this vapid notion. I believe I have mentioned this enough times now to render such platitudes unnecessary in this discourse, so repetition won't change this.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
For word definitions? What other reference tool do you suggest we use?

I didnt say word definitions.

The epistemological standard will be applied when and if the objective evidence is offered

Try and google epistemology.

I wasn't aware of using any ad hominem, let alone usually using it?

Great. Then use the other option. Humility.

If you dont understand what I am asking for, just ask. Thats humility.

The burden of proof lies with the claim

Of course. YOu can repeat it all you want, but even if you repeat it a million times, that would not make it seem I said "burden of proof does not lie with the claimant" and neither will it change the fact that you still have to state your epistemology.

If you dont understand, clarify.

Cheers.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You will need to demsonrate more than a bare claim before I will believe this, or any other claim.

Do as you choose, no further proof will be given.

I, or no other person, not even a Messenger from God themselves has ever have any obligation at all to prove to any person the claim of any Messenger.

The demonstration is the person the life and the Message of the Messenger, which is ample proof given by God to us as a freewill choice. In turn it becomes the hearers capacity of spirit to embrace that Message and their ability to live the life God asked of them, that can reflect what the Messenger offered.

What is asked of a person that accepts Faith by God, is to live the life offered as an example and in the Message and I turn offer the Message as pure as our ability enables us to do. That is the end of the obligation, as the onus to determine the validity of that Message is transferred to the hearer, as no persons Faith is of any other persons responsibility.

In fact I have come to see that it is a personal fault of believers to deliver God's message to those that demand proof, this quote is adequate guidance for the proof you demand.

"If ye find one athirst, give him to drink from the chalice of Kawtha and Tasneen; and if ye find one endowed with an attentive ear, read unto him the verses of God, the mighty, the merciful, the compassionate! Unloose the tongue with excellent utterance, then admonish the people if ye find them advancing unto the sanctuary of God; otherwise abandon them unto themselves and forsake them in the abyss of hell. Beware lest ye scatter the pearls of inner significance before every barren, dumb one. Verily, the blind are deprived of witnessing the lights and are unable to distinguish between the stone and the holy, precious pearl. Verily, wert thou to read the most mighty, wonderful verses to the stone for a thousand years, will it understand, or will they take any effect therein? No! by thy Lord, the merciful, the clement! If thou readest all the verses of God unto the deaf, will he hear a single letter? No! Verily, by the beauty, the mighty, the ancient!"

Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 207

You constant demands for proof, I turn proves that Faith is a choice of Spirit.

The abyss of hell is our own selves in preference to God.

Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

And/Or

Can we have a faith without making choices?

So all the best and it will be interesting to ponder the replies people offer.

Regards Tony
Let's just talk about one religious belief as a for example: the existence of God. People do not choose to believe in God (or not to believe in God). They are convinced of it, often because those they trust say that there is a God or not a God. But no one says, "Well it sure looks like God exists, but I choose not to believe," or the reverse.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe I have mentioned this enough times now to render such platitudes unnecessary in this discourse, so repetition won't change this.

I offered many times that Faith is one's own choice, it is also what this OP is exploring, as such I offer a quote one more time that demonstrates that you a oerson can demand proof for eternity, but not be given it until one's own self chooses to look for it.

This is what God has offered to the Messenger to pass on to us.

"If ye find one athirst, give him to drink from the chalice of Kawtha and Tasneen; and if ye find one endowed with an attentive ear, read unto him the verses of God, the mighty, the merciful, the compassionate! Unloose the tongue with excellent utterance, then admonish the people if ye find them advancing unto the sanctuary of God; otherwise abandon them unto themselves and forsake them in the abyss of hell. Beware lest ye scatter the pearls of inner significance before every barren, dumb one. Verily, the blind are deprived of witnessing the lights and are unable to distinguish between the stone and the holy, precious pearl. Verily, wert thou to read the most mighty, wonderful verses to the stone for a thousand years, will it understand, or will they take any effect therein? No! by thy Lord, the merciful, the clement! If thou readest all the verses of God unto the deaf, will he hear a single letter? No! Verily, by the beauty, the mighty, the ancient!

Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 207

There are hundreds of passages in many Holy books that reflect this same advice.

The onus of Faith is a choice of each individual.

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let's just talk about one religious belief as a for example: the existence of God. People do not choose to believe in God (or not to believe in God). They are convinced of it, often because those they trust say that there is a God or not a God. But no one says, "Well it sure looks like God exists, but I choose not to believe," or the reverse.

Then we might be able to agree that the strongest conviction, is the one made of one's own personal choice?

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You constant demands for proof, I turn proves that Faith is a choice of Spirit.

Why do theists think that atheists are going to them for proof or even evidence of a God? We know there is none, which is why people that need empirical evidence before believing are atheists.

I don't know what 'faith is a choice of spirit' means to you, but I see it as a choice to hold unjustified beliefs. I don't see it as a virtue like you do. Faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. Why is that respectable? They say that faith transcends reason, but only in the sense that a thief transcends the law. Faith is a disregard for the laws of reason the way that crime is a disregard for the laws of society.

The abyss of hell is our own selves in preference to God.

You must be projecting from your own life experience, otherwise why would you believe that, especially with so many people, including me, telling you that their lives improved when they replaced an imagined god with themselves?

I recall driving the rural roads of Missouri, where there would frequently be turtles crossing the road. I would always stop the car, and move it to the where it was heading, but off the road. And I would have a spiritual experience in the process from the satisfaction. It was a godlike experience that filled me with satisfaction. This is what tri-omni gods ought to do if they existed, but none were doing it, so I did.

Yes, I know how horrible that sounds to a theist. I used to be one, and it was always assumed that it was pride or sin or rebellion or trying to avoid accountability, not to mention blasphemous, that one would see themselves as capable of replacing God in their lives with themselves. But I did it, and I assure you there was no abyss. Life got better once I stood up on my own two feet and put myself back in the pilot's seat of my life.

a person can demand proof for eternity, but not be given it until one's own self chooses to look for it.

And not even then. One will never find any god, just his own mind and mistake his mental state for an apprehension of God. He'll misinterpret the cognitive dissonance caused by the imperatives from the limbic system, the animal urges, contradicting his higher self, his reason and conscience (cortex) sending a contradictory imperative. And he mistakes this for a God and a demon warring in his head - you know, the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, having an argument talking through his earholes to one another.

It's a well-known phenomenon. The ancient Greeks, who apparently didn't have a concept of the mind being creative, assumed that all creative impulses came from muses whispering in their ears, once again mistaking one's inherent mental state for something outside of his head speaking to him.

Once I recognized this in myself, I realized that the god I was worshiping was my own mind, and made the substitution.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to imply that anybody that hasn't found a god hasn't chosen to look for one? I could say the same about the theist - if he hasn't found reason and discarded his gods, he just hasn't tried hard enough, and I would be correct. He hasn't made the effort that any successful former theist has made. It wasn't easy. For a year, I was praying to a god I no longer believed in, asking Jesus to give me a sign if I was making a mistake. No answer as usual. Tunneling out of that mental prison that had me talking to a nonexistent god even as I was tunneling was very difficult, just like quitting smoking. It's so much easier to maintain the status quo, but there is a reward in store for whomever remains steadfast and sees the transition through. I'm still a non-smoker and a non-theist. Asking me to try to return to theism is about as appealing as returning to cigarettes.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

And/Or

Can we have a faith without making choices?

So all the best and it will be interesting to ponder the replies people offer.

Regards Tony

if you were born in ancient Greece, what would you have chosen? What could have people at that time choose?

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You must be projecting from your own life experience, otherwise why would you believe that, especially with so many people, including me, telling you that their lives improved when they replaced an imagined god with themselves?

I recall driving the rural roads of Missouri, where there would frequently be turtles crossing the road. I would always stop the car, and move it to the where it was heading, but off the road. And I would have a spiritual experience in the process from the satisfaction. It was a godlike experience that filled me with satisfaction. This is what tri-omni gods ought to do if they existed, but none were doing it, so I did.

Yes, I know how horrible that sounds to a theist. I used to be one, and it was always assumed that it was pride or sin or rebellion or trying to avoid accountability, not to mention blasphemous, that one would see themselves as capable of replacing God in their lives with themselves. But I did it, and I assure you there was no abyss. Life got better once I stood up on my own two feet and put myself back in the pilot's seat of my life.
Why does it have to be God or self? Some believers see it that way but I don't because that is illogical, the fallacy of black and white thinking . I certainly do not see you as a selfish person. Whether someone is selfish or not has nothing to do with whether they believe in God or not. A believer can be more selfish than an atheist or vice versa, it all depends upon the person. How many people would stop and move the turtles?

I don't think that God should move the turtles even though God allegedly has the power to do so, but I think that God should care more about what He created, not just the humans but also the animals. There is no evidence that God cares about animals and the 'not a sparrow falls' verse does not cut it for me when I see animals suffering in the wild and from abuse domestically. I care about animals maybe too much, and that is why my home life is often difficult as I said on the other thread. I feed the wild animals and the birds but there is a price to pay for that since they have taken over my property and it has turned into a wildlife/bird refuge!
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Yes it is a tricky concept, but we are told all we can know of God is the Messenger and the essence of the Messengers are the attributes.

Those attributes do no define God.

There is much written in this, but it really needs to be studied.

Regards Tony

So you're not claiming that you know this god exists... only that you there are messengers who claim to know that this god exists?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do theists think that atheists are going to them for proof or even evidence of a God? We know there is none, which is why people that need empirical evidence before believing are atheists.

I don't know what 'faith is a choice of spirit' means to you, but I see it as a choice to hold unjustified beliefs. I don't see it as a virtue like you do. Faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. Why is that respectable? They say that faith transcends reason, but only in the sense that a thief transcends the law. Faith is a disregard for the laws of reason the way that crime is a disregard for the laws of society.



You must be projecting from your own life experience, otherwise why would you believe that, especially with so many people, including me, telling you that their lives improved when they replaced an imagined god with themselves?

I recall driving the rural roads of Missouri, where there would frequently be turtles crossing the road. I would always stop the car, and move it to the where it was heading, but off the road. And I would have a spiritual experience in the process from the satisfaction. It was a godlike experience that filled me with satisfaction. This is what tri-omni gods ought to do if they existed, but none were doing it, so I did.

Yes, I know how horrible that sounds to a theist. I used to be one, and it was always assumed that it was pride or sin or rebellion or trying to avoid accountability, not to mention blasphemous, that one would see themselves as capable of replacing God in their lives with themselves. But I did it, and I assure you there was no abyss. Life got better once I stood up on my own two feet and put myself back in the pilot's seat of my life.



And not even then. One will never find any god, just his own mind and mistake his mental state for an apprehension of God. He'll misinterpret the cognitive dissonance caused by the imperatives from the limbic system, the animal urges, contradicting his higher self, his reason and conscience (cortex) sending a contradictory imperative. And he mistakes this for a God and a demon warring in his head - you know, the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, having an argument talking through his earholes to one another.

It's a well-known phenomenon. The ancient Greeks, who apparently didn't have a concept of the mind being creative, assumed that all creative impulses came from muses whispering in their ears, once again mistaking one's inherent mental state for something outside of his head speaking to him.

Once I recognized this in myself, I realized that the god I was worshiping was my own mind, and made the substitution.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to imply that anybody that hasn't found a god hasn't chosen to look for one? I could say the same about the theist - if he hasn't found reason and discarded his gods, he just hasn't tried hard enough, and I would be correct. He hasn't made the effort that any successful former theist has made. It wasn't easy. For a year, I was praying to a god I no longer believed in, asking Jesus to give me a sign if I was making a mistake. No answer as usual. Tunneling out of that mental prison that had me talking to a nonexistent god even as I was tunneling was very difficult, just like quitting smoking. It's so much easier to maintain the status quo, but there is a reward in store for whomever remains steadfast and sees the transition through. I'm still a non-smoker and a non-theist. Asking me to try to return to theism is about as appealing as returning to cigarettes.

I say that is our greatest challenge, the God's of our own mind, influences by the material condition, a Baha'i has the same issues, yet there is a bounty in Oneness that can not be refuted by logic or reason.

So is Faith a gift, that choices can unpack?

Regards Tony
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I already explained that. It is the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) that is completely unknowable.

I did not create that situation, it is simply the way it is. there is no way to 'objectively verify' that God exists because God is not a material object. the only way that we can know if God exists or anything about God is from what the Messengers of God reveal. I did not set it up that way, God did.

No, I have never changed my definition of COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE. As it says about God on the wiki site:
"his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable."

God's attributes are not God's Essence. We can know from scripture that God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Immaterial, Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient but we can never know the intrinsic nature of God (God's Essence).

God is not completely unknowable, only God's Essence is completely unknowable.
I don't know what you mean by "some verifiable evidence to back up the claim." What are you wanting to verify?

I already explained that. It is the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) that is completely unknowable.

So what CAN you know, if god's intrinsic nature is unknowable? And what are other things in reality that this applies to?

his reality is completely unknowable."

Yet you claim to KNOW this god is REAL, when his reality is COMPLETELY unknowable. How ridiculous.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You must be projecting from your own life experience, otherwise why would you believe that, especially with so many people, including me, telling you that their lives improved when they replaced an imagined god with themselves?

This is what religious Scriptures offer, we can to choose to pursue what they are offering.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I just said the exact opposite.

Sorry being black and white person, I really can not understand how that can that be so?

If faith is not a choice, how can one show conviction?

Maybe I see where this is coming from, this quote from an agnostic

“Belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction.”
Robert G. Ingersoll

So that would make sense, those that have no strong conviction about the existence of one God, would not see they have a choice.

Not sure that is right yet, need to think about this more.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, I know how horrible that sounds to a theist. I used to be one, and it was always assumed that it was pride or sin or rebellion or trying to avoid accountability, not to mention blasphemous, that one would see themselves as capable of replacing God in their lives with themselves. But I did it, and I assure you there was no abyss. Life got better once I stood up on my own two feet and

Firstly, thanks for the reply and I understand what you offer.

I see that is a quandary we face, if you have time, it is a holy day for Baha'i today and tomorrow, Birth of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, if you wish have, have a read and consider this prayer given by the Bab.

The entire prayer to me sums up our choices in Faith and ends with what we can face, we are tested with the good of this world and the next.

"Vouchsafe unto me, O my God, the full measure of Thy love and Thy good-pleasure, and through the attractions of Thy resplendent light enrapture our hearts, O Thou Who art the Supreme Evidence and the All-Glorified. Send down upon me, as a token of Thy grace, Thy vitalizing breezes, throughout the daytime and in the night season, O Lord of bounty.

No deed have I done, O my God, to merit beholding Thy face, and I know of a certainty that were I to live as long as the world lasts I would fail to accomplish any deed such as to deserve this favor, inasmuch as the station of a servant shall ever fall short of access to Thy holy precincts, unless Thy bounty should reach me and Thy tender mercy pervade me and Thy loving-kindness encompass me.
All praise be unto Thee, O Thou besides Whom there is none other God. Graciously enable me to ascend unto Thee, to be granted the honor of dwelling in Thy nearness and to have communion with Thee alone. No God is there but Thee.

Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance." Bab

That is very interesting to me.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I already explained that. It is the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) that is completely unknowable.

So what CAN you know, if god's intrinsic nature is unknowable? And what are other things in reality that this applies to?

his reality is completely unknowable."

Yet you claim to KNOW this god is REAL, when his reality is COMPLETELY unknowable. How ridiculous.
So what CAN you know, if god's intrinsic nature is unknowable? And what are other things in reality that this applies to?

According to my beliefs we can know some of the Attributes of God and we can know the Will of God for every age and we can know that from what the Messengers of God reveal in scriptures.

Yet you claim to KNOW this god is REAL, when his reality is COMPLETELY unknowable. How ridiculous.

As I said, the Essence of God is completely unknowable, but we have no need to know what the Essence of God is in order to know that God exists and know what His Attributes are and know what His Message is for us. Not even the Messengers of God know the Essence of God! God alone knows His Essence.

“Exalted, immeasurably exalted, art Thou above the strivings of mortal man to unravel Thy mystery, to describe Thy glory, or even to hint at the nature of Thine Essence. For whatever such strivings may accomplish, they never can hope to transcend the limitations imposed upon Thy creatures, inasmuch as these efforts are actuated by Thy decree, and are begotten of Thine invention. The loftiest sentiments which the holiest of saints can express in praise of Thee, and the deepest wisdom which the most learned of men can utter in their attempts to comprehend Thy nature, all revolve around that Center Which is wholly subjected to Thy sovereignty, Which adoreth Thy Beauty, and is propelled through the movement of Thy Pen.

Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty. “
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3- 4
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you're not claiming that you know this god exists... only that you there are messengers who claim to know that this god exists?

They are all we can know of God, so I can say that knowing the Messenger gives us the knowledge of God, we have been created in the image of the Messengers.

In faith I see they are trustworthy and are truthful and all they offer is truth relative to my capacity of understanding.

Regards Tony
 
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