Animal rights

[Reverend Rick]

What qualities make it not OK to kill other humans but OK to kill animals?

Good question, we can kill other humans and it is legal. We just may not murder them.

If a human lacked one or more of these qualities would it be OK to kill him?

I don't think so.

Would you have any moral objections to mentally or technologically superior extraterrestrials coming down and harvesting humans for food?
If so, and you were not a vegetarian, would your objection not be hypocritical?

Yes, I would object and yes my hypocrisy know no bounds.

 

[TheKnight]

I don't like the term rights. I hate the concept of rights all together. So no, I do not think we should give animals rights.


What I do believe is that we, humans, are obligated to treat animals a certain way. Indeed, we are to treat all of God's creations in a certain manner. That being said, mankind is prohibited (per Noahide law) from unnecesarily causing harm to animals with the exception of food.

That means that animal abuse, hunting for sport, taking limps from the animal while it is alive, etc etc etc are all prohibited by the Noahide code.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My wife says I treat my dog better than any human. Let me say this about that......

No human should take pleasure in harvesting animals. I fish all the time, I hardly ever kill a fish and when I do, I eat it. I had a chance to take a deer while hunting this year. I thought to myself, I have plenty of venison in my freezer. I did not pull the trigger. I still enjoyed my hunting trip.

 

[Ozzie]

I was watching Family Guy tonight. One of the major themes of the episode was animal equality. I got me thinking about animal rights. Do you think that the law should give more rights and equality to animals? Why?

No way animals deserve equal rights or equality to us because they are lower in the food chain. The most they deserve is to be treated "humanely", like asylum seekers.

No way animal rights is going to reach the political agenda while treatment of asylum seekers is justified on "humane" grounds, humane being an adjective popularly ascribed to human attitudes towards the treatment of animals.

Looks like the animals are left in the lurch.

 

[Vile Atheist]

I was watching Family Guy tonight. One of the major themes of the episode was animal equality. I got me thinking about animal rights. Do you think that the law should give more rights and equality to animals? Why?

More rights. No more equality.

 

[rojse]

All animals have the right to jump on my dinnerplate. Like the jellyfish in my avatar:

 

[whereismynotecard]

But we don't posess any methods for reading the minds of insects, so to say that isn't I think a well contemplated stance. Kristof Koch, a hugely revered neuroscientist and researcher into conciousness says that he became a vegetarian whe he started studying the minds of animals, and now that he has seen experiments with bees and had learned how intelligent they are, he no longer kills insects indescrimenantly.

You'll probably think I'm nuts, but this summer we had a sudden fly infestation in our kitchen. I tried to catch them and put them outside but it just wasn't happening. So, for personal health reasons, I decided to get fly catchers. I didn't sleep that night out of guilt. Watching those poor things get stuck and struggle into exhaustion was an awful experience. I was very unhappy with myself about it.

A long time ago I drowned a spider and then I felt really bad and buried it and gave it a tomb stone with a little flower. Later I found out they can survive under water longer than I thought and that I probably killed him by burying him. Bugs just scare me way too much for me to let them live in my house. I don't know if you realize how irrationally scared I am of them. I do transport them outside sometimes, but sometimes carrying them on a piece of paper while they are running toward my hand almost gives me a panic attack. And I NEED to get them OUT OF MY HOUSE! I cannot just let them stay... Maybe it's irrational, but I'm just a stupid animal anyway... You cannot expect me to be rational.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Johnathan Swift reports babies taste even better. Should we add them to the menu, then?

What a modest proposal...

What I do believe is that we, humans, are obligated to treat animals a certain way. Indeed, we are to treat all of God's creations in a certain manner. That being said, mankind is prohibited (per Noahide law) from unnecesarily causing harm to animals with the exception of food.

I think the word "obligation" is a good one. Expecially because no one being has any more "right" to do something than another. Why should anyone get to decide whether something should live and die?

To be more accurate, I say "live and let live." That's how I view the matter.

A long time ago I drowned a spider and then I felt really bad and buried it and gave it a tomb stone with a little flower. Later I found out they can survive under water longer than I thought and that I probably killed him by burying him.

Similarly, I used to keep worms as pets. I thought they were so neat. I would keep them in my sandbox. (Hint: don't do that...:no. I would get so upset when they died and I couldn't figure out why. So I'd dig up more, stick them in my sandbox, and give them some grass for "food".

They still died.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Animals are living creatures too. They shouldn't be abused. I am not against eating them. That is the natural cycle of life. I do have a problem when they are not aloud to actually live their short lives.

 

[MSizer]

Animals are living creatures too. They shouldn't be abused. I am not against eating them. That is the natural cycle of life. I do have a problem when they are not aloud to actually live their short lives.

But do you not agree that animals have the capacity to feel pain? Do you not agree that causing pain in another being is cruel? Current humanity has a huge case of cognitive dissonance going on. We make excuses so that we can ignore that we are causing pain. Just because other animals do it is no justification. By that justification, I should be allowed to rape anyone I want because it's natural, and other animals do it. Of course it's still wrong, and that's because it causes pain and suffereing. We have abolished slavery, next step meat eating.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

But do you not agree that animals have the capacity to feel pain? Do you not agree that causing pain in another being is cruel? Current humanity has a huge case of cognitive dissonance going on. We make excuses so that we can ignore that we are causing pain. Just because other animals do it is no justification. By that justification, I should be allowed to rape anyone I want because it's natural, and other animals do it. Of course it's still wrong, and that's because it causes pain and suffereing. We have abolished slavery, next step meat eating.

Interesting points. I still think that meat eating isn't bad. I personally am almost a vegetarian. I only eat chicken on a regular basis(I have health issues with beef and pork). Death can be quick and painless. Rape causes emotional suffering over a long period of time. I think rape is one of the worst things someone can do to another person. Also meat is nearly essential to the human diet. We need the fats and protein found in meat. Maybe if a safe vegetarian alternative could be developed, then I would be against meat eating. Not until then though.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Besides, all animals will die some time. It is not necessary to inflict any more pain and suffering on an animal to eat it than would otherwise be the case. The problem is that almost all of the meat we eat comes from animals who are caused an incredible amount of pain and suffering. The food industry causes incredible cruelty to an insanely large amount of animals. It really is horrible!

As to objecting to aliens trying to eat us, that wouldn't be hypocritical. I acknowledge an animal's right to resist being eaten by me. Why can't I try to resist being eaten?

 

[Vile Atheist]

Why can't I try to resist being eaten?

Because I and my brethren from Zargon-6 require a source of protein.

 

[Valjean]

Interesting points. I still think that meat eating isn't bad. I personally am almost a vegetarian. I only eat chicken on a regular basis(I have health issues with beef and pork). Death can be quick and painless. Rape causes emotional suffering over a long period of time. I think rape is one of the worst things someone can do to another person. Also meat is nearly essential to the human diet. We need the fats and protein found in meat. Maybe if a safe vegetarian alternative could be developed, then I would be against meat eating.Not until then though.

That's not true, Xiao_Shu, as any dietitian would tell you. I'll bet most of the lipids (fats/oils) in your fridge are of vegetable origin, and you'd have to eat a diet exclusively of jellybeans for your diet to be protein deficient.
Protein, lipids and calcium are simply not a problem in any reasonable vegetarian diet. In fact, the average western diet yields toxic amounts of protein and often unhealthful amounts of fat.

You could make a valid criticism of a meatless diet with reference to B-12, for example, but fats and protein simply aren't a problem.

Gonna go veggie now?

 

[rojse]

I want to know why we consider the pain of large mammals more important than, say, bugs or spiders, and why there's no consideration of the pain that a plant might experience.

 

[Valjean]

Plants don't have the nervous system to mediate pain and, in a sessile organism, pain would be a useless yet metabolically costly feature -- Nature weeds out such useless waste. Hence we can conclude that any sensation resembling pain is unlikely in plants.

In addition, there is more to consider in our interaction with others than simple pain. There is the capacity to suffer, to experience fear or joy, to anticipate futurity, &c.

 

[Metalic Wings]

So basically what everyone is saying here is along the the lines of "Well, sure, animals eat other animals. That doesn't mean we have to."?

Alright, so what about early humans? They ate meat. That's why we do. Are you saying that humans have evolved to the point where eating meat is wrong? It is a part of how we've developed. Humans have always ate meat. I believe that if it's done in a humane way with as little pain as possible and IN APPROPRIATELY SIZED AMOUNTS, eating meat is just part of nature. Nothing wrong with choosing not to. I say "more power to you."

Besides. The food chain is a way of regulating population. (I know, major flaw here for anyone who cares to ponit it out....) But does that make it morally wrong?

 

[Herr Heinrich]

That's not true, Xiao_Shu, as any dietitian would tell you. I'll bet most of the lipids (fats/oils) in your fridge are of vegetable origin, and you'd have to eat a diet exclusively of jellybeans for your diet to be protein deficient.
Protein, lipids and calcium are simply not a problem in any reasonable vegetarian diet. In fact, the average western diet yields toxic amounts of protein and often unhealthful amounts of fat.

You could make a valid criticism of a meatless diet with reference to B-12, for example, but fats and protein simply aren't a problem.

Gonna go veggie now?

Thank you for that information. Maybe it is just in my house that we have a lack of protein rich vegetables. My parents aren't the most healthful shoppers. I try to eat as healthy as I can though.

 

[Valjean]

So basically what everyone is saying here is along the the lines of "Well, sure, animals eat other animals. That doesn't mean we have to."?

Alright, so what about early humans? They ate meat. That's why we do. Are you saying that humans have evolved to the point where eating meat is wrong? It is a part of how we've developed. Humans have always ate meat. I believe that if it's done in a humane way with as little pain as possible and IN APPROPRIATELY SIZED AMOUNTS, eating meat is just part of nature. Nothing wrong with choosing not to. I say "more power to you."

Besides. The food chain is a way of regulating population. (I know, major flaw here for anyone who cares to ponit it out....) But does that make it morally wrong?

Humans are not part of a natural food chain. We mass produce meat as a commodity from creatures never seen in Nature.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Humans are not part of a natural food chain. We mass produce meat as a commodity from creatures never seen in Nature.

Yup. That's the flaw I was talking about.

That's why I said that I think it's okay if done in appropriate amounts: ie, only however much you need to get by, and utilizing every part of the animal you kill so that it's death wasn't useless or a waste.