Abortion

[chinu]

You mistake truth with belief.

Should the girl who probably doesn't believe in reincarnation be forced to have a child because of a belief? Thats wrong, very wrong.

If the girl, would have knowed it first --- that somebody is going to rape her, then she would have never been remain home alone.

Deed are deeds, then who will agree to pay them back, specially the hard ones.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Songbird]

It's actually a common enough attitude in societies and cultures where belief in reincarnation is widespread.

Here's what I mean - reincarnation in those societies is a means of soothing in the face of no justice. I've never heard of the suggestion that should justice, medical help, or whatever good and helpful thing be available, it should be withheld due to reincarnation.

 

[*Deleted*]

What happened to my post on this thread? Moderators? If you take down a post, do you not respond to the person as to why? You have our emails.

I wrote when this thread was about a page long:

It's a woman's body. Her decision. If males could get pregnant and had children, I don't think abortion would be debated much.
It's very strange to me that abortion causes so much upset in many quarters, but dropping bombs (and this has gone on for a long long time) on innocent fully developed human beings (collateral damage, I think they call it)---2 year olds, 5 year olds and so on---that is just "war" you know. Again, mostly a male thing. So it's OK---or it's just the "cost" of war.
But a woman's body---seems there has to be warring over that too (mostly instigated by patriarchal thinking---which is male-dominated thinking whether it is done by males or females.)
Still male-dominated.
Why was my original post disappeared on this thread---when the thread had barely begun?

 

[beenie]

If the girl, would have knowed it first --- that somebody is going to rape her, then she would have never been remain home alone.

Deed are deeds, then who will agree to pay them back, specially the hard ones.

_/\_
Chinu

Please tell me you are not serious.

 

[Storm]

What happened to my post on this thread? Moderators? If you take down a post, do you not respond to the person as to why? You have our emails.

1) I have no idea. I haven't seen anything regarding a post by you. Probably a glitch.
2) When we delete posts, it's standard prcedure to notify the poster of the action and reason via pm. Check your inbox (NOT your email.)
3) Although I don't think this violates it, there is a rule against discussing moderation. In the future, kindly post such questions in Site Feedback, rather than the open forum.

ETA: Just checked the first two pages of the thread, and I didn't see any deleted posts. It must have been a glitch.

 

[Songbird]

Clare, you don't mean post #109, do you? It looks similar to your most recent post, and it's still there.

 

[Father Heathen]

If the girl, would have knowed it first --- that somebody is going to rape her, then she would have never been remain home alone.

Deed are deeds, then who will agree to pay them back, specially the hard ones.

_/\_
Chinu

How repulsive.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because in their previous births, this 9 year old girl was a neighberour, and the neighberour was a girl, and he has raped her, and she has to bear lot of difficulties during whole life time, due to this.

I know this topic is based on just " Let's-Say "

But --- not only "The sum of Awe", Chinu too can say "Let's-Say", Let's-Say

: "Tho shalt you sow, so shall you reap"

_/\_
Chinu

What if you get reincarnated as a pinworm due to your lack of sympathy and compassion for innocent victims, especially children? Surely your blue gods frown upon you.

 

[*Deleted*]

Songbird,

Yes, you're right! I looked for it and couldn't find it---recall reading the posts and didn't think mine was that far down. Must have been. Thanks

Clare

 

[LuisDantas]

That's the first I've heard of reincarnation as a reason to withhold justice.

And yet, as Sunstone said, it is a common enough attitude in societies that believe in reincarnation. It is practically mainstream in Brazil, where a Spiritist variety of reincarnation is very popular.

 

[Kathryn]

I am pro life and opposed to capital punishment.

So at least I am consistent.

 

[Adramelek]

Let's say a 9 year old girl was raped and her mom died earlier than this, her dad was a poor, drunk. The girl had nobody else but her dad in that poor hillbilly place. Let's say her dad was a farmer who lived in a town by other farmers. One day while her dad went to milk the cows, one of the neighbors raped her, and nine months later she was pregnant.

Would it be fine for her to get an abortion?

Sum of Awe, for me you don't even have to present such an argument. No one, let alone a man, has any right to tell or put into law what a woman can or cannot do with her own body, let alone her own reproductive system. How do you all think men would feel if women put into law that all men had to have their testicales tied in order to prevent pregnancy? The preverbial sword cuts both ways.

 

[Sunstone]

Because in their previous births, this 9 year old girl was a neighberour, and the neighberour was a girl, and he has raped her, and she has to bear lot of difficulties during whole life time, due to this.

I know this topic is based on just " Let's-Say "

But --- not only "The sum of Awe", Chinu too can say "Let's-Say", Let's-Say

: "Tho shalt you sow, so shall you reap"

_/\_
Chinu

If I was fated by some Cosmic Law to rape someone, I would infinitely prefer to rape a self-appointed wise man, than rape a 9 year old girl, no matter what her alleged karma. Just so you know.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This gives a good point ;P

 

[kepha31]

I didn't know that poverty was a criteria for determining who lives or who dies. :no:The girls needs help, not more violence.

 

[Father Heathen]

I didn't know that poverty was a criteria for determining who lives or who dies. :no:The girls needs help, not more violence.

What a strange non sequitur. Who's going to die? What would entail more violence?

 

[darkendless]

I didn't know that poverty was a criteria for determining who lives or who dies. :no:The girls needs help, not more violence.

Raising a child in poverty is not living, its surviving which is horrible to enforce on people due to draconian beliefs. The negative affects of brining a child into poverty are horrific and well documented.

 

[kepha31]

What a strange non sequitur. Who's going to die? What would entail more violence?

I will elaborate to show that I made no non-sequitur.

Normally, the primary concern of this question, normally, is not Do you think abortion is OK in this instance?, despite the fact that this is how the question may be expressed. The concern which is uppermost for the questioner is, Don't you care about this woman? Won't you have compassion and help her?

When we answer the question, therefore, let's start by addressing this point head on. Before we even mention abortion, we should stress that we agree totally that the woman who has been raped has undergone a terrible trauma, which we can hardly begin to understand, and that her well-being is very much our concern. Stress this point strongly, and go further by saying that we in the pro-life movement are ready to reach out to such women, giving them counsel, healing, and compassion.

This approach, of course, differs in that it does not start where most people would start in answering this challenge: namely, with the rights of the child. It starts with concern for the woman, which is where the questioner is.

Then, having agreed that the woman has been victimized and needs our help, you can frame the question of abortion in this manner: Will an abortion help her? By asking this, you are now questioning what is normally an unspoken, unchallenged assumption, namely, that the abortion is somehow a solution to the rape, and somehow helps alleviate the pain and trauma of the woman.

Having questioned this assumption, therefore, bring in the evidence that not only does the abortion not alleviate the trauma of the rape, but it brings a trauma of its own. Countless women suffer for years and decades after abortion.. I know of women who have been raped and then had abortions, and are in counseling not for the rape but for the abortion! In rape, the trauma is "Someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed someone else: my child." That brings even more grief.

We therefore help the questioner to see that our reason for denying the rape victim an abortion is not based on insensitivity but rather on compassion, that is, the same basis on which the questioner is challenging us to allow the abortion.

The next step of the process is to show that our compassion actually is more inclusive than that of those who would allow abortion. Having established that we care about the rape victim, we then ask the powerful question, Why can't we love them both? Why can't we extend to the child the same practical compassion which we both agree belongs to the woman? Why can't we expand the boundaries of those we welcome and care for? Why should helping and loving one (the mom) mean destroying the other (the child)? In reality, you cannot help one without helping the other and you cannot hurt one without hurting the other.
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I didn't know that poverty was a criteria for determining who lives or who dies. :no:The girls needs help, not more violence.

The baby dies needlessly; death does not cure poverty; the girl, in accordancce with the OP scenario, needs help, not the violence of an abortion making her worse. My statement stands. I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[beenie]

I didn't know that poverty was a criteria for determining who lives or who dies. :no:The girls needs help, not more violence.

The baby dies needlessly; death does not cure poverty; the girl, in accordancce with the OP scenario, needs help, not the violence of an abortion making her worse. My statement stands. I hope I have made myself clear. [/FONT][/SIZE]

What kind of help? Who can help her? The government? Welfare? For how long?

I'll go to the ends of the earth to make abortion as limited as possible, but we have to be able to fix other issues first, thus making abortion less of a need.

I'm torn on whether poverty alone is acceptable for abortion though. There are many who have overcome their rough start and become examples and successful. Aborting them gives them NO chance to turn things around. Poverty doesn't mean absence of love and nurturing.

Having said that, I know what MY choice would be, but I can't toss my morality onto everyone else.

 

[ninerbuff]

Being a former catholic, the church apparently values life so much that it would rather keep the gold and money rather than educate their own members on how to talk to teens of today how to correctly handle sex issues by spending money on it. No contraception (except for NFP), but no abortion if their teen gets pregnant. Then the teen is looked down upon because they have a baby.
Prohibition by religion for sex doesn't work. The catholic church still hasn't figured this out.