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A severe state of moral decadence

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The dictionary defines “decadence” as the act or process of falling into inferior condition or state, moral degeneration or decay or unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence.

This is often attributed as one of the reasons why empires fall, a good example being the Roman Empire. And this is also a great definition of our society right now.

All the social and technological improvements of the last decades were supposed to make us richer, healthier, smarter and happier than ever before. But are we really?

In French we have this expression to define how most people live: “metro, bulot, dodo”, meaning, we commute, we work and we go to sleep. Rinse and repeat.

In the past, many people fought tooth and nail for the freedom of the individual, specially from the church and state. While their cause was perfectly justified and valid, this new-found freedom gave birth to another master for us to slave to: the market. And this new master has a much greater influence in our lives than the church and the state.

We don’t control the markets. They control us. We were told that to grow the markets we need freedom. That translates into: everything is acceptable as long as someone makes a profit.

The market demands that jobs are shipped to countries where labor is cheaper and human and environmental rights don’t apply. But no worries, if we work more, if we give everything we are to the markets, we will have more money, so we can keep spending all the way to the grave.

The markets require that we drain our planet out of its natural resources, that we pollute the air, the ground and the water, that we drive millions of species to extinction and that we treat each other like nothing more than disposable objects.

Greed, corruption, narcissism and over competitiveness have all become normal and acceptable. A CEO who behaves like a psychopath is a hero as long as the shareholders of his company keep making money and he bring home millions. People identify that kind of person as successful, someone to look up to, the example to follow. Never mind how much destruction his company causes, that’s irrelevant. Just look at how much he’s achieved.

Most people want a happy, healthy lifestyle but that’s not what we’re getting. The family, the most fundamental building block of society is decaying spectacularly. Everything has become so disposable that we started to deal with our relationships the same way we deal with stuff: if it doesn’t fit the criteria throw it away and get another one.

We add and subtract people as if they were mere things. Our work environment is becoming more and more casual, without commitment, the gig economy or whatever. They tell us we need a more flexible work force to keep us competitive, but that flexibility means that younger people can no longer plan their lives and do what was once normal: have job security, buy a house, start a family. We live day to day, hoping that tomorrow we still have enough to get by and that we won’t need to move back to our parent’s basement.

We live in a world full of economic enslavement, moral decay and cultural confusion. Like in ancient Rome, after a period of progress, we are succumbing to self-indulgence and moral decay, filling our lives with excesses that we know will cost us dearly and cause our own fall.

Our culture, devoid of moral values and spirituality, sees only the superficial, but that superficial is not enough to make people believe that their lives are satisfying and fulfilling. Can we keep living like this? Sure. But looking at the rates of depression, anxiety, drug use and suicide, it's not working too well.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Our culture, devoid of moral values and spirituality, sees only the superficial, but that superficial is not enough to make people believe that their lives are satisfying and fulfilling. Can we keep living like this? Sure. But looking at the rates of depression, anxiety, drug use and suicide, it's not working too well.
Sadly, I'm more your "Crisis? What crisis?" kind of guy. I do not see our culture as devoid of moral values and spirituality. Likewise, my guess is the superficiality stems from having a sustained package of options available at any given moment, with many more options coming up in the next moment. So, we are somewhat superficial because we have unending, almost limitless arrays of choices. That can get bewildering and overwhelming. No one can follow the modern world, in real time, as there is simply too much information to process.

I'm not so sure that enhanced spirituality would actually change anything however. It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
I wish people would stop repeating the nonsense that "decadence" caused the fall of Rome. The Western half of the Empire collapsed for quite practical reasons - the Empire had stretched itself too thin, they weren't paying their soldiers, couldn't control the borders and kept being invaded. However, the Eastern half of the Empire continued for about another thousand years and became Byzantium.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I wish people would stop repeating the nonsense that "decadence" caused the fall of Rome. The Western half of the Empire collapsed for quite practical reasons - the Empire had stretched itself too thin, they weren't paying their soldiers, couldn't control the borders and kept being invaded. However, the Eastern half of the Empire continued for about another thousand years and became Byzantium.

That and they abandoned their pantheon to take up the worship of some upstart xenos deity. ;)

No Pax Deorum, no Imperium.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
In the past, many people fought tooth and nail for the freedom of the individual, specially from the church and state. While their cause was perfectly justified and valid, this new-found freedom gave birth to another master for us to slave to: the market. And this new master has a much greater influence in our lives than the church and the state.

We don’t control the markets. They control us. We were told that to grow the markets we need freedom. That translates into: everything is acceptable as long as someone makes a profit.
I feel this is all driven by the lack of personal responsibility a lot of people operate under. It causes us to not look out for each other the vast majority of the time because you never know who to trust. You get burned more times than you feel it was worth the effort and you're going to stop trying to stick your neck out for people.

So, if we maintain our current nature and predilections, all we'd do if we tore down the market, chucked much of our technology and started living off the land/locally/etc. is trade what you consider our "market master" for a new master - our stomachs. I feel that very few people know how hard a life is lived having to get out there, hunt/gather, source clean water, build/maintain shelter, farm, etc. - to live without all the implements that naturally lead to competitiveness and drive people to create the implements in the first place. I'm not sure there is a ton of difference in meting out existence surviving from day to day this way, or doing so with the conveniences and having to work in a more abstract mode of thought/action. You're going to have people unhappy with life in general no matter what. Surviving, it would seem to me, is simply difficult.

It wouldn't need to be if we all pitched in, all made sure we respected one another and earned respect back, etc. And that's where human nature steps in and makes sure we'll always have to struggle, and do it mostly alone.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The dictionary defines “decadence” as the act or process of falling into inferior condition or state, moral degeneration or decay or unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence.

This is often attributed as one of the reasons why empires fall, a good example being the Roman Empire. And this is also a great definition of our society right now.

All the social and technological improvements of the last decades were supposed to make us richer, healthier, smarter and happier than ever before. But are we really?

In French we have this expression to define how most people live: “metro, bulot, dodo”, meaning, we commute, we work and we go to sleep. Rinse and repeat.

In the past, many people fought tooth and nail for the freedom of the individual, specially from the church and state. While their cause was perfectly justified and valid, this new-found freedom gave birth to another master for us to slave to: the market. And this new master has a much greater influence in our lives than the church and the state.

We don’t control the markets. They control us. We were told that to grow the markets we need freedom. That translates into: everything is acceptable as long as someone makes a profit.

The market demands that jobs are shipped to countries where labor is cheaper and human and environmental rights don’t apply. But no worries, if we work more, if we give everything we are to the markets, we will have more money, so we can keep spending all the way to the grave.

The markets require that we drain our planet out of its natural resources, that we pollute the air, the ground and the water, that we drive millions of species to extinction and that we treat each other like nothing more than disposable objects.

Greed, corruption, narcissism and over competitiveness have all become normal and acceptable. A CEO who behaves like a psychopath is a hero as long as the shareholders of his company keep making money and he bring home millions. People identify that kind of person as successful, someone to look up to, the example to follow. Never mind how much destruction his company causes, that’s irrelevant. Just look at how much he’s achieved.

Most people want a happy, healthy lifestyle but that’s not what we’re getting. The family, the most fundamental building block of society is decaying spectacularly. Everything has become so disposable that we started to deal with our relationships the same way we deal with stuff: if it doesn’t fit the criteria throw it away and get another one.

We add and subtract people as if they were mere things. Our work environment is becoming more and more casual, without commitment, the gig economy or whatever. They tell us we need a more flexible work force to keep us competitive, but that flexibility means that younger people can no longer plan their lives and do what was once normal: have job security, buy a house, start a family. We live day to day, hoping that tomorrow we still have enough to get by and that we won’t need to move back to our parent’s basement.

We live in a world full of economic enslavement, moral decay and cultural confusion. Like in ancient Rome, after a period of progress, we are succumbing to self-indulgence and moral decay, filling our lives with excesses that we know will cost us dearly and cause our own fall.

Our culture, devoid of moral values and spirituality, sees only the superficial, but that superficial is not enough to make people believe that their lives are satisfying and fulfilling. Can we keep living like this? Sure. But looking at the rates of depression, anxiety, drug use and suicide, it's not working too well.
This is so French.

The funny thing is that we who live across the border look with such envy at the French way of life. The Germans, I understand, even have an expression "to live like a god in France". (They have even tried to act on this, a few times in the past.) Maybe it is that France still actually retains many of the things other societies have lost, but the people there can feel the pressure of trying to keep them in being.

You certainly put your finger on two of the big defects of the market economy we have in the UK: the erosion of employment security and the atrocious cost of housing, both of which affect the young disproportionately. However I think one has to remember that consumers do have market power. Those like me who are old enough to remember the 1970s will recall with a shudder the terrible quality of cars and some other manufactured goods, the eternal grèves, partout, and even how long it took a state-controlled enterprise to put in a telephone line. Markets are a good way to deploy effort efficiently to meet the needs of society, but they need regulation when the distribution of power between buyer and seller gets too one-sided. That's not a new problem, but it is popping up in new areas and we need some new solutions.

Also, don't blame pollution and consumption of natural resources on markets. The worst environmental catastrophes have occurred in planned economies. On the contrary, only in a market economy can companies be forced by public opinion to change the way they operate.

But I do agree that many of the changes, while they have led to healthier and longer lives for us all, and a far greater degree of physical comfort (I still remember the change when we got central heating in 1971), none of this does anything for sense of community or spiritual satisfaction.

And we are too busy to reflect, a lot of the time. My son's school is continually advertising the virtues of something called "mindfulness", to try to get parents and their teenage children to be less manic. When you look at what this is, it is simply an atheistic repackaging of prayer or meditation! So...maybe these old priests and monks had something, after all..... This is in fact why I like to go to mass on Sunday. It is a time to reflect, from a different perspective and according to a different set of priorities from daily life in the city.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@Vee, it seems to me you raise a number of valid points. For the past forty or so years -- at least -- the economy has increasingly benefited the top 10% of the population (and especially the top 0.01%), while it has decreasingly benefited the rest of the population. So far as I know, this has been a worldwide tendency.

It seems most people are unaware of those facts -- or at least lack the knowledge to quite grasp what they bode. But in addition to the growing disparity between rich and poor, and what that means for most lives, you also seem to me spot on about the effects of unbridled economic exploitation of the environment.

I'm not entirely pessimistic about the future -- if only because there are too many variables involved to confidently predict that things will overall get better or get worse. But I'm fairly certain that the future has the potential to be pretty bleak for most people if we do not successfully address a number of existential threats to humanity.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@Vee, here's something from the New York Times' morning email. You might find the article interesting. The China model could become the future for much of the world, after all.

"A few decades ago, Western economists agreed: Centrally planned economies bred waste and corruption. Big government ambitions crippled future generations with debt. Price controls led to hunger and want. Free markets solved it all.

"Then the People’s Republic changed the game.

"We’ve been examining China’s rise. This article looks at the country’s economy, a dominating force that Western experts once denied could exist."​

Whatever the case, I don't think any knowledgeable person thinks free markets are necessarily superior to planned economies anymore -- only the people who haven't been able to absorb the lessons from China still think that. And I say that as someone who would hate living under the Chinese government.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
@Vee, here's something from the New York Times' morning email. You might find the article interesting. The China model could become the future for much of the world, after all.

"A few decades ago, Western economists agreed: Centrally planned economies bred waste and corruption. Big government ambitions crippled future generations with debt. Price controls led to hunger and want. Free markets solved it all.

"Then the People’s Republic changed the game.

"We’ve been examining China’s rise. This article looks at the country’s economy, a dominating force that Western experts once denied could exist."​

Whatever the case, I don't think any knowledgeable person thinks free markets are necessarily superior to planned economies anymore -- only the people who haven't been able to absorb the lessons from China still think that. And I say that as someone who would hate living under the Chinese government.
It seems to me there is a rather misleading dichotomy implied here. The Chinese model is in fact a market model with very strong government control. It is nothing like the "planned economies" of the old Soviet Bloc. China's economy took off when they allowed free enterprise back into their society. Sort of Communism without the communism.

Furthermore it is a half-finished project that has a number of areas for screwing up badly, not least the long term effects of the centrally mandated one child policy on their demographics.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
By being "devoid of moral values" you mean a lack of uncritical adherence to arbitrary rules based on superstition, right?

I think the OP was more concerned with the effects of unbridled capitalism on the lives of ordinary people. She sees that as a moral issue, which I believe it is -- among other things. I do not believe she was espousing "moral values" in any other sense -- at least not in this thread. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It seems to me there is a rather misleading dichotomy implied here. The Chinese model is in fact a market model with very strong government control. It is nothing like the "planned economies" of the old Soviet Bloc. China's economy took off when they allowed free enterprise back into their society. Sort of Communism without the communism.

Furthermore it is a half-finished project that has a number of areas for screwing up badly, not least the long term effects of the centrally mandated one child policy on their demographics.

I agree with you that China has a number of challenges. Inflation, debt, slowing growth, etc. Not everything about their economy is rosy. But to me the point here is that the Chinese have managed to create the world's second largest economy with a degree of government control that Western experts thought impossible -- until they did it.

I don't think one can deny that their success was in part because they loosened up the restrictions on entrepreneurs, etc. But their "bird cage economy" -- as they sometimes call it -- has appreciably more government control than many Westerners once thought compatible with such growth. That, too, cannot be denied.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I wish people would stop repeating the nonsense that "decadence" caused the fall of Rome. The Western half of the Empire collapsed for quite practical reasons - the Empire had stretched itself too thin, they weren't paying their soldiers, couldn't control the borders and kept being invaded. However, the Eastern half of the Empire continued for about another thousand years and became Byzantium.
You could have given Gibbon a lesson in brevity!
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I wish people would stop repeating the nonsense that "decadence" caused the fall of Rome. The Western half of the Empire collapsed for quite practical reasons - the Empire had stretched itself too thin, they weren't paying their soldiers, couldn't control the borders and kept being invaded. However, the Eastern half of the Empire continued for about another thousand years and became Byzantium.

Watch out, Franky, you're poking me on one of my soapbox topics!!
What was decadent was a number of Roman Emporers, and the soldiery became tied to individuals rather than the Republic, some of whom were decadence personified. And quite possibly both mentally and physically unfit in a surprisingly high number of cases.

Less homogeny contributed massively to this too, rather than just the army being spread thin. Basically, the percentage of Roman soldiers, commanders and even Emporers who were Roman became increasingly diluted.

In short, I completely agree that 'decadence' is overplayed as the reason for the empires disintegration, and the Eastern Empire is commonly forgotten about when judging the Empires end.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It seems to me there is a rather misleading dichotomy implied here. The Chinese model is in fact a market model with very strong government control. It is nothing like the "planned economies" of the old Soviet Bloc. China's economy took off when they allowed free enterprise back into their society. Sort of Communism without the communism.

Furthermore it is a half-finished project that has a number of areas for screwing up badly, not least the long term effects of the centrally mandated one child policy on their demographics.
B I N G O!
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
And we are too busy to reflect, a lot of the time. My son's school is continually advertising the virtues of something called "mindfulness", to try to get parents and their teenage children to be less manic. When you look at what this is, it is simply an atheistic repackaging of prayer or meditation! So...maybe these old priests and monks had something, after all..... This is in fact why I like to go to mass on Sunday. It is a time to reflect, from a different perspective and according to a different set of priorities from daily life in the city.

If it's anything like the same concept in Australia, it's a secular version of Buddhist principles.
I'm not sure where atheism fits in!

But of course there are good things we can learn from religions, just like there are bad things.
 
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