A nice respectful thread on "doubt"

[Alceste]

I thought that locked thread on doubt was pretty interesting before things went pear-shaped, so here's another. Let's keep it civil: If you're looking to convert people to your own personal faith, go start your own thread. This one is for doubters.

What do you make of uncertainty? Do you fear it? Does it inspire you? How much and how often do you question your beliefs? Do your beliefs evolve to accommodate new information and experience? Or do you just do away with beliefs altogether and ride the uncertainty train, content to sit back and take in the scenery?

 

[sandandfoam]

I think doubt is vital. Everything is in a state of constant change but I find that a difficult thing to conceptualise. Without the benefit of doubt I might end up stuck in rigidity. Doubt keeps me aware that my understanding is always provisional.

 

[lunamoth]

It depends upon the dish. Occasional doubt can aid digestion but too much can have the opposite effect. Most often I just prefer a little dash of un in my certainty.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Stephenw oh yeh! Incidentally that stance you describe is vital to Zen Buddhist practice: -

'The greater the doubt, the greater the awakening; the smaller the doubt, the smaller the awakening. No doubt, no awakening.' - Zen Buddhist proverb

...though I should point out a Zen Buddhist teacher I quoted this to rephrased it like this, 'The greater the confusion, the greater the awakening; the smaller the confusion, the smaller the awakening. Awake! No confusion.' but I think he was just trying to be clever and get me doubting some more, as Zen teachers predictably do.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

It depends upon the dish. Occasional doubt can aid digestion but too much can have the opposite effect. Most often I just prefer a little dash of un in my certainty.

Again with the Zen, 'What is Mu? Do not believe it is the common negative symbol meaning nothing. It is not nothingness, the opposite of existence. If you really want to pass this barrier, you should feel like drinking a hot iron ball that you can neither swallow nor spit out.'

Indigestion would be preferable then, in Zen.

 

[DallasApple]

Well I spoke on this..but I doubt and it scares me..but at the same time Im curiouser then..So its a what do you say?..Not double edged sword but somethign like that..(sorry my mind is scrambled now)..

And I had no idea that thread was locked..I thought it just petered out! ...

Love

Dallas

 

[fantome profane]

What do you make of uncertainty? Do you fear it? Does it inspire you? How much and how often do you question your beliefs? Do your beliefs evolve to accommodate new information and experience? Or do you just do away with beliefs altogether and ride the uncertainty train, content to sit back and take in the scenery?

Hello, my name is fantôme and I am a doubtaholic. Doubt is the inspiration for all learning, and all new insights, all growth. I question my beliefs, my perceptions, my reality constantly. I find that I love the experience of doubt, the exhilaration. And yes, that exhilaration comes out of an experience of fear. But for me it is kind of fear that makes one more alive, not the kind of fear that paralyses or debilitates:faint:. To be honest I think that I fear certainty more, that kind of fear is for me debilitating.

'What is Mu?

Not much, what’s Mu with you?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

What do you make of uncertainty?

It makes room for growth.

Do you fear it?

I welcome it: it forces me to refine my understanding.

Does it inspire you?

Yes.

How much and how often do you question your beliefs?

A lot, but not as much as I used to. I'm quite comfortable but not completely so. I always question my beliefs, but have enough sense to know beliefs are nothing more than a finger pointing.

Do your beliefs evolve to accommodate new information and experience?

It's the story of my life.

Or do you just do away with beliefs altogether and ride the uncertainty train, content to sit back and take in the scenery?

Both: certainty leaves no room for growth; a mind that's completely open is empty.

 

[Somkid]

What do you make of uncertainty? Nothing is uncertain as nothing is permanent.

Do you fear it? Why should one fear what it natural.

Does it inspire you? Why should one be inspired by what is natural, inspiration is our nature.

How much and how often do you question your beliefs? One who does not question is a fool.

Do your beliefs evolve to accommodate new information and experience? As long as it is truth and can be known by me from personal experience.

Or do you just do away with beliefs altogether and ride the uncertainty train, content to sit back and take in the scenery? Nothing unreal exists and everything can be known we just don't know everything....yet

 

[lunamoth]

Huh, I would have thought balance would be more important in Zen, but maybe that's plain ole Buddhism.

 

[lilithu]

The opposite of faith is not doubt; it is certainty.

I understand what luna is saying tho about not wanting to have so many doubts that one becomes paralyzed. In general it's good to have some sense of direction but not be so certain about it that one can't recognize mystery.

btw, the middle way is as important in Zen as it is in "plain ole Buddhism."

 

[lunamoth]

The opposite of faith is not doubt; it is certainty.

I understand what luna is saying tho about not wanting to have so many doubts that one becomes paralyzed. In general it's good to have some sense of direction but not be so certain about it that one can't recognize mystery.

btw, the middle way is as important in Zen as it is in "plain ole Buddhism."

She understands me! :swoon:

In your honor, a zen sermon: :flower:

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

The opposite of faith is not doubt; it is certainty.

I understand what luna is saying tho about not wanting to have so many doubts that one becomes paralyzed. In general it's good to have some sense of direction but not be so certain about it that one can't recognize mystery.

btw, the middle way is as important in Zen as it is in "plain ole Buddhism."

That's pithy but it doesn't ring true for me personally.

Being paralyzed by doubts can be very uncomfortable. I used to worry about it a great deal because that was the situation I felt myself to be in and it went on for many seemingly unproductive & spiritually dry years. In the end it wasn't faith or certainty that won out, it was doubt.

Great doubt isn't so bad or extreme as it often appears and in retrospect what was considered good & balanced before can be revealed as rather twisted, hence doubt arising in the first place.

 

[PureX]

What do you make of uncertainty?

It is the nature of the human condition.

Do you fear it?

Sometimes. We human survive and thrive by figuring out how our environment works, so the unknown represents a real danger to us.

Does it inspire you?

Yes, in that it's what I DON'T know that makes my life so interesting and free.

How much and how often do you question your beliefs?

I believe that doubt is unavoidable. It never leaves me.

Do your beliefs evolve to accommodate new information and experience?

Yes. I think everyone's do.

Or do you just do away with beliefs altogether and ride the uncertainty train, content to sit back and take in the scenery?

That would be a worthy pursuit, but I choose to believe in the value and power of love.

 

[Manipulated]

Can this be true, doubt is the thief of time, every moment spent in uncertainty is wasted for all eternity?

 

[lilithu]

That's pithy but it doesn't ring true for me personally.

Being paralyzed by doubts can be very uncomfortable. I used to worry about it a great deal because that was the situation I felt myself to be in and it went on for many seemingly unproductive & spiritually dry years. In the end it wasn't faith or certainty that won out, it was doubt.

Great doubt isn't so bad or extreme as it often appears and in retrospect what was considered good & balanced before can be revealed as rather twisted, hence doubt arising in the first place.

That's funny because from my perspective it sounds like you had many doubts and now you have resolution. And it was only after you had resolution that you could move forward instead of being stuck.

You say that being paralyzed by doubt can eventually be spiritually productive. I agree. But you wouldn't want to stay in that position perpetually, would you?

Doubt is most certainly a good thing, necessary for spiritual growth. But like everything else in this word, too much of a good thing is no longer a good thing.

Eventually one has to pick a path and explore it. That requires a certain amount of faith. Not "blind faith," which equals certainty. To me, faith is a probing, questioning trust in a path pioneered by others.


SW, you may be interested in this book, Buddhist Faith and Sudden Enlightenment. It's written by professor Sung Bae Park, former Zen monk and now a professor at SUNY Stony Brook. I learned Zen from him while I was at Stony Brook. Coincidentally, the koan he gave us was the one you refer to:

A monk asked Chao-chou, "Has the dog Buddha nature or not?"
Chao-chou said, "Mu."

 

[fantome profane]

Can this be true, doubt is the thief of time, every moment spent in uncertainty is wasted for all eternity?

What do you believe “eternity” is?

If “eternity” is really infinite time then why should you be concerned about wasting something of which there is an infinite supply?

 

[Magic Man]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that doubt, for lack of a better word, is good. Doubt is right, doubt works. Doubt clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Doubt, in all of its forms; doubt of life, of money, of love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind.

This message brought to you in part by "Wall Street".

 

[Manipulated]

What do you believe “eternity” is?

If “eternity” is really infinite time then why should you be concerned about wasting something of which there is an infinite supply?

Good question, I have heard it is said that what we do here on earth will echo into all eternity. My thoughts are, if we waste time in doubt we lose out on preparing for eternity. Can this be true?

 

[fantome profane]

Good question, I have heard it is said that what we do here on earth will echo into all eternity. My thoughts are, if we waste time in doubt we lose out on preparing for eternity. Can this be true?

I don’t know. All I can say is it sounds very poetic – “echo into all eternity”. Lovely. But I would be more concerned that my mistakes become cemented because I am afraid to question. The idea that my error could last not just for life but for eternity (if this can be true) makes it all the more important that I subject my beliefs to serious questioning.