A long time, when the President is dead set on obstruction and extremely media savvy and vindictive.
And backed up by a hostile foriegn power who isn't bound by US law.
Probably a very long time.
Tom
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“I just choose to not listen”: why Trump supporters are tuning out the scandals
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
And backed up by a hostile foriegn power who isn't bound by US law.
Probably a very long time.
Tom
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, I do believe most people now realize what Hoover was like, including the highly partisan approach he took. And he basically ran the FBI as if he was a dictator of the agency, which is not the pattern today, especially since the leadership of the FBI is in transition.
It has been made quite clear that the investigation is not just based on "idle speculation", and I would also suggest that anyone who really looks at the news with any sense of objectivity should realize that Trump & Co. have been taking actions that defy even basic honesty, which undoubtedly is why he is researching the pardoning process.
Now, I do agree that we need to let these investigations run their course before jumping to any legal conclusions, but the actions of Trump defy even basic logic if he's done nothing wrong.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Going by past precedent, months to years. Watergate took over 900 days.
I think much of the public has been fooled into thinking that the FBI is different today than it was under Hoover, but I don't see how. Hoover tried to foster an image of the FBI as above politics, clean, and incorruptible. But that image turned out to be false. I don't see why anyone should believe it today.
Part of the problem we're facing today is that too many people give a blank check of blind trust to the police, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. Such attitudes are dangerous to a free and democratic society. In contrast, I believe that these agencies are run and operated by human beings who are just as fallible and susceptible to corruption/dishonesty/incompetence as any other human being. All humans are created equal - and just because someone wears a uniform, a suit, or a black robe, it doesn't make them any better or more honorable than someone wearing jeans and a t-shirt living out in the sticks.
Basically, the whole argument rests on the premise that the ruling class are "superior" to the Great Unwashed. Look at the methods of argumentation used and read between the lines of what they're actually saying.
Reagan was alleged to have colluded with the Iranians before the 1980 election, while they were still holding Americans hostage. He also made an arms for hostages deal with them and got away with it. I consider that far more serious than any of the scandals surrounding Trump, and yet, he got away with it - and Oliver North was heralded as an "American hero." Does that make any sense?
I'm not saying that Trump is innocent, but this is clearly a case of the rats investigating the mice. If one can wade through all the smoke-and-mirrors and the torrent of political rhetoric - there's not much left. To me, if their case was really that strong, it wouldn't be necessary to pile on or use such a barrage of emotionally-charged rhetoric. These are political tactics which lawyers and pundits are famous for, but it doesn't fool me for a second.
I don't think it was that long. The investigation didn't really start in earnest until early 1973, and most of it was legal wrangling over the White House tapes. They had investigated most everything else within a few months, but they were stalled because they wanted to get their hands on those tapes and Nixon wasn't giving them up. The whole question on everyone's mind was "What did the President know and when did he know it?" The tapes would have answered that question.
This case is different because they don't have any tapes. Where else are they going to look and what else can they possibly find? Perhaps some "surprise witness" may step forward? What else can we expect in this? Are there any secret tapes or hidden e-mails somewhere that haven't been released yet? From what some are saying, they seem convinced that there's enough evidence already to convict Trump, so what are they waiting for? Start the impeachment proceedings, get it over with, and let the country move on. Either poop or get off the pot.
Your offense doesn't make what I noted any less true. The delusional and idiotic claims that Obama was born in Kenya are not at all analogous to the criminal investigation of Trump or his campaign.
Yes, but that's just your opinion. It's not fact. Just remember that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And I don't see how they supposedly have been "fooled". Where does your evidence of such come from? Link?
When 17 different agencies, who often are in conflict with one another, say the same thing, I think we should take their word over Trump's. Do you believe in anyone or anything?
Here's a link to the timeline: Watergate Fast Facts - CNN.com
Since investigators record intercepted messages, my guess is that you're wrong.
Most legislators and party leaders on both sides don't appear to be jumping to conclusions.
You yourself implied that the FBI is different today than it was under Hoover. Where does your evidence of such come from? Link? If you believe that our government has gotten "kinder" and "gentler" since the bad old days, then it's just that: Your belief. I believe otherwise.
17 different agencies all part of the same government. In any case, they haven't said anything which would suggest enough evidence to convict, so what difference does it make what they're saying now?
Sure, I believe in some things. Why do you ask? One might ask the opposite question: Why are you so quick to believe what these "17 different agencies" are saying? Whatever happened to the notion of "Question Authority"? Why are so many people wanting to believe that our government has turned over a new leaf and should be viewed as a paragon of virtue now?
Every single argument I see regarding this issue carries the same implication: People try to paint the government as this noble institution, with Trump as some kind of "poison pill" who is somehow messing everything up. It's like they're all saying "Everything was great until Trump came along and ruined it all!" That's a notion I certainly do not believe.
I don't believe in our political system. I think the only way for America to move forward is to completely tear down the system and rebuild it from scratch.
I was already familiar with the Watergate timeline.
Then they already would have had access to these messages and continued with the investigation. It shouldn't take that long to transcribe recorded messages and make them part of the official investigation. Not years, anyway.
Perhaps not, although some people in this forum somehow get contentious and upset at people who refuse to jump to conclusions. That's what I can't figure out.
Why would Mueller stop before investigating all possible crimes? A new lead goes public nearly every day. Who knows how much he is aware of that hasn't gone public.
I'm hoping that the indictments take another year to appear and that Trump doesn't resign much sooner - in time to have maximal impact during the midterm elections. That's the prize - retaking both houses of Congress.
The Trump base is in for a rough ride. If you are part of that base, you might consider acceptance of what appears inevitable to those that are not. Trump appears to be finished. All that remains to be seen is what crimes he and his family have committed, which modus exodus will obtain, and what consequences will follow.
If Trump had lived in the sixteenth century, he would likely have been the title character of a Shakespearean tragedy. Hamlet, Macbeth, and Lear were all larger than life personas with fatal flaws that brought them down. What is this if not that? Trump's hubris, contempt for the law and fair play will likely account for his political demise.
If "we" means the legal system, I agree. If it includes you and me, I don't.
I've made judgments about Trump since I first learned who he was, and I suspect that you have as well. I think that's what reason and evidence based thinkers ought to do. The judgements should be tentative, no more certain than the present quality and quantity of evidence justifies, and amenable to revision pending additional relevant evidence.
Trump appears to be guilty of multiple categories of crimes - money laundering issues, collusion issues, emoluments issues, and obstruction of justice issues.
"In science and history, consilience (also convergence of evidence or concordance of evidence) refers to the principle that evidence from independent, unrelated sources can "converge" to strong conclusions."
We have found common ground, although I would go much further. I have no faith in the American media, the American education system, American jurisprudence, or the American voter. I'm beginning to doubt my lifelong commitment to democracy and free speech thanks to recent American history. Fools voting and endless political indoctrination weren't part of the equation when I was younger.
While on the road, I listen to either podcasts (Science Friday, Freakonomics,
TED radio) or NPR .Talking heads on the latter was going on & on about the
scandalous meeting between Trump & Putin. The 2 of them met & conversed.
In private. No one monitored what they had to say. Suspicious....conspiracy!?
Some wonder why I don't get all worked up over this latest 'scandal'.
Where they see verification of the conspiracy, I see what is....a private discussion.
I don't know what was said.
So I'll reserve my ire & outrage not for what's possible, but for what is made real.
And there's plenty of that.
TED radio) or NPR .Talking heads on the latter was going on & on about the
scandalous meeting between Trump & Putin. The 2 of them met & conversed.
In private. No one monitored what they had to say. Suspicious....conspiracy!?
Some wonder why I don't get all worked up over this latest 'scandal'.
Where they see verification of the conspiracy, I see what is....a private discussion.
I don't know what was said.
So I'll reserve my ire & outrage not for what's possible, but for what is made real.
And there's plenty of that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I told you why previously, namely that Hoover left a sour taste whereas there simply is no "dictator" of the FBI any longer, especially since the leadership is in transition. Why is this so difficult to understand? Federal Bureau of Investigation - Wikipedia Scroll down to 2.3 and 10.1+
I never said nor implied that, so your use of such a strawman is pathetic and utterly dishonest.
It is obvious that you simply are not aware of how long the FBI takes on issues such as this.
I already explained why.
I taught political science for roughly 25 years, and I never taught anything like that. Just another one of your pathetic little strawmen.
Now you are lying because you said that you didn't believe it took over 900 days.
You simply do not know what you're talking about.
nous fini.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Even though I'm quite liberal in some areas, I am also quite conservative in some others.
OTOH, as I believe you're probably aware of, I have stated even long before the election that Trump simply cannot and should not be trusted because of his past performance in many different areas. And since he become president, his pace of utter dishonesty has only accelerated.
However, with that being said, have doubts that he has reached the stage whereas he should be impeached. These investigations take gobs of time and for good reason, and I'm willing to wait them out.
You're coming unglued by all this. Take a chill pill and try again.
It is a fact that the delusional and idiotic claims that Obama was born in Kenya are not at all analogous to the criminal investigation of Trump or his campaign.
- These people tend to be remarkably uncritical of established authority, and dismissive of any criticisms. They "choose not to listen."
- They're brains are just wired that way.
No, it is not a fact. That is just your opinion.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
That's the thing. We don't really need to see the evidence. President Trump has made it abundantly clear he is guilty. We are just waiting to hear the details at this point.
I haven't seen a politician act this guilty since Rob Ford and his cocaine fueled insanity!
They clearly aren't analogous. One was a completely made up conspiracy theory. The other has a bunch of evidence and various governmental agencies investigating it.
It's like saying that the "moon landing is a hoax" theory is analogous to the "Al-Qaida is responsible for 9/11" theory. There is clearly much more reason and valid evidence to believe one over the other.
Opinions are not all made equal. Some actually have facts, evidence, and rational arguments to back them up.