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To Muslims & Non Muslims
- Thread starter basem
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lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Dude, it was bad enough when you said that no one would want to convert to Judaism, which is a crock of bull but I chalked that up to your general ignorance, but now you're being grade-A bunghole to someone who's patiently trying to understand you, and who's more than demonstrated her ability to think in these forums, which is more than I can say for you.basem said:
You certainly don't give non-Muslims a very good impression of your faith. Luckily, there are Muslims here who do.
mr.guy
crapsack
I'm sure i don't know in it's entirety, but let's start here:Radar said:
Using this argument is usually for one's one moral conveniance. Plenty of secular institutions have more than adequately convinced mass populations to behave similarly.radar said:
Seems you've isolated one that's made the news a little more this century.
Largely unfounded assumption. You've decided that since you've no need for a mainstream/denominational religion, everyone who's adopted one is necessarily morally handicapped.
I bet we could round up some folk on this forum who would consider religious abolition pretty pregudicial. I'm wondering though, why didn't you suggest the banning of God? He's the root of the problem, isn't he? I think i could do without God, would my enforcement of such policy offend you?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
it does seem a bit of a judgmental attitude to have about religion there Radar 
as for the convirsion subject... every religion has something about it that draws converts. I know of no major religion (and very few minor ones) that don't allow for and welcome new members from outside thier 'born' ranks.
wa:do
as for the convirsion subject... every religion has something about it that draws converts. I know of no major religion (and very few minor ones) that don't allow for and welcome new members from outside thier 'born' ranks.
wa:do
You have taken me wrongly. I do not care if others practice whatever religion they want. I am for freedom of religion. I do not think badly of those who choose to worship anything in any way. I do not judge anyone who does so either. I do not necisarily think religion is a bad thing. I think far to often people use religions to make prejudice decisions. I judge people on their character no matter what faith they are or if they have no religion at all. I do not think badly of the religious but many would think badly of you and I. I guess what I was saying is that religion does not make anyone better than the next. I can see that but people of different faiths can't. I am not saying let's abolish all religion. I am saying that I believe if there were no religion ever that the world would have been better place. We cannot change the past but I don't think that religion has made the world a better place. We are handed so much to handle when we are born religion just adds to that. We have to get past people looking at the color of our hair, skin, what gender we are, what country we come from, if we are tall, short, bald, fat, skinny, etc. And believe or not religion amplifies those other prejudices. Again I don't want to abolious any or all religions I just think the world would be a better place if we never had any religion. Did that clear anything up?mr.guy said:
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Excuse me?? And you base this statement on what?Radar said:
No.Radar said:
For all the bad that has been done in the name of religion, there has also been a lot of good done in its name as well. You might argue that good people will do good regardless and it's not fair to give religion credit for what good people do in its name. If that's the case, then the opposite is true as well. Bad people will do bad regardless and it's not fair to blame religion for what bad people do in its name.
"We have to get past people looking at the color of our hair, skin, what gender we are, what country we come from, if we are tall, short, bald, fat, skinny, etc. And believe or not religion amplifies those other prejudices. "
Again, what do you base this statement on other than your own prejudices?
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
Slay the pagans is unclear?
bin Laden's Fatwa to kill all Americans wherever you find them is unclear?
I know the politically correct thing to say is that Islam is a religion of peace, and all people of different religions should be getting along, but this ignores the facts. Islam is about the violent, if necessary, overthrow of other religions, attempting to bring the world under Islamic law.
You can choose not to beleive this, but you have to ignore history to do so. I was simply pointing out in my previous post a couple of sections of the Koran which shows that the modern jihadist way of thinking has roots which go way back, to the origins of Islam.
I did not dream this stuff up. For a thorough discussion of the subject feel free to visit jihadwatch.org
And you don't strengthen your position, Lilith by saying that other texts in other religions can also be pointed out which urge violence toward outside groups. I don't disagree with that at all. Part of my lineage goes back as long as there have been what are now called Native Americans in North America. Catholic missionaries who wanted to convert my ancestors to Christianity, and would "share" a polio infested blanket with the villagers they could not convert are not much better than the Al Quaeda operatives of today.
Native peoples the world over have suffered at the hands of Christians. Modern society today suffers at the hands of Islamic Jihadists. You say I am an example of a little knowledge being a bad thing. If you really think so, then convince me that religion at large has done more good than harm over the centuries.
I am not favoring Christianity over Islam, tho in my lifetime, Christians have been much less likely to mass murder others just because they didn't share the same faith. Organized religions, Christian, Muslim, whatever, have been major forces of evil throughout history. Man's inhumanity to man can be easily studied by a close examination of religion throughout history.
In Aztek society the streets flowed with blood. And guess who was at the top of the temple cutting the hearts our of the still living victims? Priests. Need we get into the horrific torture handed out during the Spanish Inquisition, which was a thinly veiled attack on Jews by the Catholic Church? When Theo Van Gogh's murderer, Mohammed Bouyeri, was sentenced he told Theo's mom he admitted he could not feel sorry for her because he beleived she was an infidel (non-Muslim).
These are but a few of the anecdotal accounts of what has been a rampant problem throughout recorded history. Friction between religious factions have led to countless deaths, untold bloody wars in which many innocents were killed, maimed and tortured. I can't imagine something which leads to such outcomes to be a positive influence.
B.
bin Laden's Fatwa to kill all Americans wherever you find them is unclear?
I know the politically correct thing to say is that Islam is a religion of peace, and all people of different religions should be getting along, but this ignores the facts. Islam is about the violent, if necessary, overthrow of other religions, attempting to bring the world under Islamic law.
You can choose not to beleive this, but you have to ignore history to do so. I was simply pointing out in my previous post a couple of sections of the Koran which shows that the modern jihadist way of thinking has roots which go way back, to the origins of Islam.
I did not dream this stuff up. For a thorough discussion of the subject feel free to visit jihadwatch.org
And you don't strengthen your position, Lilith by saying that other texts in other religions can also be pointed out which urge violence toward outside groups. I don't disagree with that at all. Part of my lineage goes back as long as there have been what are now called Native Americans in North America. Catholic missionaries who wanted to convert my ancestors to Christianity, and would "share" a polio infested blanket with the villagers they could not convert are not much better than the Al Quaeda operatives of today.
Native peoples the world over have suffered at the hands of Christians. Modern society today suffers at the hands of Islamic Jihadists. You say I am an example of a little knowledge being a bad thing. If you really think so, then convince me that religion at large has done more good than harm over the centuries.
I am not favoring Christianity over Islam, tho in my lifetime, Christians have been much less likely to mass murder others just because they didn't share the same faith. Organized religions, Christian, Muslim, whatever, have been major forces of evil throughout history. Man's inhumanity to man can be easily studied by a close examination of religion throughout history.
In Aztek society the streets flowed with blood. And guess who was at the top of the temple cutting the hearts our of the still living victims? Priests. Need we get into the horrific torture handed out during the Spanish Inquisition, which was a thinly veiled attack on Jews by the Catholic Church? When Theo Van Gogh's murderer, Mohammed Bouyeri, was sentenced he told Theo's mom he admitted he could not feel sorry for her because he beleived she was an infidel (non-Muslim).
These are but a few of the anecdotal accounts of what has been a rampant problem throughout recorded history. Friction between religious factions have led to countless deaths, untold bloody wars in which many innocents were killed, maimed and tortured. I can't imagine something which leads to such outcomes to be a positive influence.
B.
What is really, really sad is that you find it necessary to try and convert me away from my beliefs and then critisize me for teaching people who were actually interested in what I had to say.Merlin said:
This thread is about how excited someone was to convert people to Islam from Judasm and Christianity. He asked why no one converted from Islam. I gave an answer of why it might be.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
What do you think "Pagans" means?
I'm not denying that those verses exist in the Qur'an. I am disputing your pulling them out as evidence that Islam is somehow more inherently violent than other religions. Such verses exist in other scriptures, AS WELL AS many other verses which exhort the believer to be kind and generous to others. Both of those impulses exist in the Qur'an. Both the those impulses exist in religion in general. And it is up to the individual person to interpret for him or herself what they mean. Yes, there are Osama bin Ladens in the world. There are Muslims who fly airplanes into buildings and kill little kids in daycare there. But what about the over 1 billion other Muslims who exist in this world and do not do that? Who go about their lives trying to live the best they can? Why do they not count at least as much when we decide whether Islam is peaceful or not? For you to pull out these verses and claim that it proves that Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims is wrong and it's prejudicial and inflamatory. And it's morally irresponsible when we already live in an environment where Muslim-Americans have been jailed, beaten, and killed simply for being Muslim.
I'm not denying that those verses exist in the Qur'an. I am disputing your pulling them out as evidence that Islam is somehow more inherently violent than other religions. Such verses exist in other scriptures, AS WELL AS many other verses which exhort the believer to be kind and generous to others. Both of those impulses exist in the Qur'an. Both the those impulses exist in religion in general. And it is up to the individual person to interpret for him or herself what they mean. Yes, there are Osama bin Ladens in the world. There are Muslims who fly airplanes into buildings and kill little kids in daycare there. But what about the over 1 billion other Muslims who exist in this world and do not do that? Who go about their lives trying to live the best they can? Why do they not count at least as much when we decide whether Islam is peaceful or not? For you to pull out these verses and claim that it proves that Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims is wrong and it's prejudicial and inflamatory. And it's morally irresponsible when we already live in an environment where Muslim-Americans have been jailed, beaten, and killed simply for being Muslim.
Ok look at any white supremist organization goes way past just the color of skin. It goes into religion. There many events, the inquisition, the crusades, the taking of mecca, WWII, what's happening in Isreal, terrorist attacks all done in the name of religion. I try my best not to have any prejudices and I can't think of any that I have. I look for and at the character of the person. And all that I was mentioning are examples of prejudices that are out there and don't not reflect me as a person. None of you know me here so none of you can say that I have any prejudices at all. People at least in this country are free to do as they please for now. And I think we should have more freedoms. So worship who and what you like, think what you will of me or anything else, and feel free to express them verbally or in writting. So don't acuse me of being prejudice when you don't know me. Most religions are prejudice because they have to be the only true one and the only way. Therefore if you don't worship how they worship you are going to hell that is prejudging thus a prejudice.lilithu said:
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Dude, the only reason why I'm accusing you of prejudice is because of what you're writing. Beyond that, I don't pretend to know anything about you. You list things like the inquisition as an example of what harm religion can do. You claim Hitler's actions were inspired by religion. And I'm saying that you're prejudice against religion biases what you see.Radar said:
What about the French revolution, which had nothing to do with religion? What about Stalin? What about Mao? There's been tons of violence that had nothing to do with religion.
On the flip side what about Ghandi? What about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr? What about Mother Theresa? What about the abolitionists of the 1800's who based their anti-slavery arguments and actions on the bible? What about the people who risked their lives to help hide and transport Jews during the holocaust because of their faith.
It isn't religion that causes harm. It's making generalized blanket statements against everyone in a certain group. Like your statement that people who are religious can't see that religion doesn't necessarily make them better. That's just bull. There are plenty of religious people right here on RF to serve as counter examples to your claim. When you can't see the examples right in front of you that dispute your generalization, that by its very definition, is a prejudice. You have pre-judged an entire group of people without looking at each one as an individual.
Shows what you know. I can only think of two religions out of the dozens with which I have some familiarity that say they are the only one and the only way. And I can only think of a few that have any concept of hell. And even in these religions, many adherents concede that they do not know who will be damned and who will be saved. It's not for them to pre-judge.Radar said:
hey jonny, are you a missionary to convert other people??
Then come here ...and see to explain for them how what you hold under your arm contain this.
i was trying just to discuss topics in here without any haters to make ourselves more closer but to give you a lesson in how to respect other religions and to not take some verse out of it's context and out of it's real meaning. I can respond to every verse you mentioned but i'll give you a simple example of what i found in RF.
"He ordered the guards and officers to slaughter them all, and to let not a single one escape." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 25) "God said to Jehu, 'you have done well in carrying out what is right and have completed what I wanted done to the house of Ahab. Therefore your sons will be kings over Israel to the fourth generation." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 30)
"Joshua destroyed everyone. They did not leave anyone alive." (Joshua 11:14)
"They were put to the sword, destroying them all." (Joshua 11:12)
"Devour the nations the lord your god delivers over to you. Show them no pity." Deut. 7:16
"He struck them hip and thigh with great slaughter." Judges 15:8
"Joshua put them to the sword, destroying them all." (Joshua 11:12)
Imagine how many threads i can start with this but i didn't do it because i'll not get anything with it and i can't just simply take these verses out of it's original context, chapters and stories as a whole.:tsk:
understand now?
Then come here ...and see to explain for them how what you hold under your arm contain this.
i was trying just to discuss topics in here without any haters to make ourselves more closer but to give you a lesson in how to respect other religions and to not take some verse out of it's context and out of it's real meaning. I can respond to every verse you mentioned but i'll give you a simple example of what i found in RF.
There are many verse in Quran talking about Jihad and God's command to do so but before the Muslims at the time of Prophet Mohammed were going to war he was stopping them ordering them saying: "Don't kill a child, don't kill an old, don't kill a woman and don't cut a tree".
This text is necessary, because of the false idea, that Aryanity, or Aryan Messianic Identity has stolen the idea of Jihad from Islam, for this I have to say, the only thing we "adopted" is the name for it, the word "Jihad". The concept of Martyrs, Holy Warriors, those who choose military actions for the purpose of restoring Divine Order, has been with us since before the Islamic Religion even existed. You cannot steal what you have always had, and Jihad is as Biblical, as it is Islamic. The Jihadeen, or Jihadi, the operatives of Divine Will, have been with us from our conception, for this I will show you Jihad in the Bible as it appeared to me but plus the ultimate horror.
"Kill every woman." Numbers 31:7
"Kill every little boy." Numbers 31:7
"Kill all the infants and suckling babies." 1 Samuel 15:3
"This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head ... that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel." 1 Samuel 17:46
I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. 1 Samuel 17:47
"He ordered the guards and officers to slaughter them all, and to let not a single one escape." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 25) "God said to Jehu, 'you have done well in carrying out what is right and have completed what I wanted done to the house of Ahab. Therefore your sons will be kings over Israel to the fourth generation." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 30)
"Joshua destroyed everyone. They did not leave anyone alive." (Joshua 11:14)
"They were put to the sword, destroying them all." (Joshua 11:12)
They were "cut down until they had not a single survivor." (Joshua 11:8)
"Their cities were destroyed," (Joshua 11:12) and the people living there were "put to the sword, destroying them all". The Israelites then "plundered the cities," (Joshua 11:14) and "every living soul they put to the sword until they had destroyed everyone. They did not leave anyone alive." (Joshua 11:14)
"Joshua killed everyone. He did not leave anyone alive." (Joshua 11:14)
"Devour the nations the lord your god delivers over to you. Show them no pity." Deut. 7:16
"You must completely destroy them; you shall make no peace treaties with them, and show no mercy to them." Deut 2:1
"Utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling baby." 1 Samuel 15:3
"Joshua and the men of Israel had finished slaying them with a very great slaughter, until they were wiped out." Joshua 10:20
They pursued them and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword" Joshua 8:24
"He struck them hip and thigh with great slaughter." Judges 15:8
"Joshua put them to the sword, destroying them all." (Joshua 11:12)
"Put the inhabitants to the slaughter without giving any quarter and burn their town down." Deut. 13:15
And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armor in his tent. And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand." 1 Samuel 17:54
"Then Abishai the son of Zeruiah said to the king, "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and take off his head."... And there is also with you Shimei the son of Gera, the Benjaminite from Bahurim, who cursed me with a grievous curse on the day when I went to Mahanaim; but when he came down to meet me at the Jordan, I swore to him by the LORD, saying, I will not put you to death with the sword.' Now therefore hold him not guiltless, for you are a wise man; you will know what you ought to do to him, and you shall bring his gray head down with blood to Sheol." 2 Samuel 16:9, 1 Kings 2:8
"And a certain woman threw an upper millstone upon Abimelech's head, and crushed his skull." Judges 9:53
"She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sisera a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple." Judges 5:26
Then the woman went to all the people in her wisdom. And they cut off the head of Sheba the son of Bichri." 2 Samuel 20:21
King Jehu ordered the people to behead Ahab's sons and to bring him the heads of Ahab's sons "at Jezreel by this time tommorrow...And when the letter came to them, they took the king's sons, and slew them, seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent them to him at Jezreel. When the messenger came and told him, "They have brought the heads of the king's sons," he said, "Lay them in two heaps at the entrance of the gate until the morning.". (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 6) "God has now fulfilled the prophecy of the prophet Elijah. So Jehu put to death all who were left of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, as well as all of his close friends and priests, until he had left not one single survivor." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 10) "He put to death all of Ahab's house, who were left there and so blotted it out, in fulfillment of the word which YAHWEH had spoken to Elijah." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 7) "He ordered the guards and officers to slaughter them all, and to let not a single one escape." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 25) "God said to Jehu, 'you have done well in carrying out what is right and have completed what I wanted done to the house of Ahab. Therefore your sons will be kings over Israel to the fourth generation." (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 30)
You are a wise man; you will know what you ought to do to him, and you shall bring his head down with blood to the grave." 1 Kings 2:9
SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with every VIRGIN GIRLS who was AT LEAST 3 YEARS OLD in the bible in the link below:
understand now?
You shouldn't be so easily bated. I could really careless. I'm not prejudice and I know most religious people are not either. I thought it would be kind of fun to throw a few words around to see what would happen. Prejudice is found in ignorance. I could careless that anyone converted to this religion or that religion or no religion at all. Who is to say how the world would really be if there were no religions. It would probably pretty dull. Diversity is the spice of life and it takes all types to make a good chili. Yes I know I was speaking out of my butt, but it was fun to get one person going. If you have missed some of my post in the past I would write that I am agnostic and antagonistic. So take that for what you will and I meant no harm or offense to anyone.
So from where you want me to bring a proof?Merlin said:
- If i bring verses from the bible so many will ignore it and they will bring other verses contradict with it instead of explaining the one i brought.
- If my proof is was from Quran so you will say Ohh this from your own faith.
listen i have a deal ..
Do you want scintific proofs in the Quran for example? i have hundreds of it.
Wanna try?
if anyone want to know the Islam & sword story can check in here.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20228
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20228
Melody
Well-Known Member
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that a muslim who converts to another religion can be legally killed. In the last year there was a story of a muslim who converted (an author or professor or something) and was being held in prison. Based on news reports around the net, this is not uncommon.basem said:
As far as I know, Judaism doesn't execute people for switching religions, nor do christians (ok, well at least not in this century).
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
Okie Dokie,
The Truth. I have a couple of questions for you directly.
1. Do you believe in the Koran literally? By this, I mean, do you beleive that it is literally the word of Allah, as handed down to Mohammed his Prophet?
2. If you beleive and follow the Koran literally, do you feel it is your duty to kill infidels?
I am not asking any abstract questions here. I mean you, personally.
B.
The Truth. I have a couple of questions for you directly.
1. Do you believe in the Koran literally? By this, I mean, do you beleive that it is literally the word of Allah, as handed down to Mohammed his Prophet?
2. If you beleive and follow the Koran literally, do you feel it is your duty to kill infidels?
I am not asking any abstract questions here. I mean you, personally.
B.