To Muslims & Non Muslims

[jewscout]

Cool.... thanks, from one Jew to another.

if only i were...if only i were

 

[TashaN]

Actually all Christians and Muslims are Jews. If we did not believe in their Scriptures, we would doubt three quarters of our own Bible

You have to know that Abraham wasn't a Jew and he had two sons, the Jewish are sons of Ishaq and the Arabs are the sons of Ishmael.

Nevertheless, about your second statment you are right because you can't just take out the OT from your bible but the Quran is based in pure separate revelation from God. On the other hand, the christians must keep the 10 commandments as Jesus told them because simply Jesus didn't came out with a new religion but to fulfill and correct but after he had ascended to the sky, some many years after that Paul came up with a religion called Christianity.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

Please correct me if i'm wrong because christians must know know thier religion much more than me and i'm still learning.

 

[Merlin]

You have to know that Abraham wasn't a Jew

What religion was Abraham?

 

[Merlin]

if only i were...if only i were

Be patient.

Having been through the whole conversion process for three different Christian traditions (but not completed any), the thing I found most irritating was that at the end one had to be re-baptised or in some way re-consecrated into this new faith. As though your old faith was in some way dirty or invalid.

To pre-empt the question why did I do it, because it's the only real way to learn about other people's traditions. And it was done very positively and earnestly, and I did learn a lot.

 

[Merlin]

You have to know that Abraham wasn't a Jew and he had two sons, the Jewish are sons of Ishaq and the Arabs are the sons of Ishmael.

Nevertheless, about your second statment you are right because you can't just take out the OT from your bible but the Quran is based in pure separate revelation from God. On the other hand, the christians must keep the 10 commandments as Jesus told them because simply Jesus didn't came out with a new religion but to fulfill and correct but after he had ascended to the sky, some many years after that Paul came up with a religion called Christianity.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

Please correct me if i'm wrong because christians must know know thier religion much more than me and i'm still learning.

I can see where you are coming from, but sadly in this instance you are incorrect. Christians believe that Jesus created a new covenant. I like your quotations though.

There is very little difference between the teachings of the Qu'ran and the teachings of the new Testament. Yes we can get bogged down in all the minute detail, but at the fundamental level, they are the same. And we do worship the same God. So we will all meet in Paradise.

 

[TashaN]

I can see where you are coming from, but sadly in this instance you are incorrect. Christians believe that Jesus created a new covenant. I like your quotations though.

We all know that:

- Moses made a new law when he was alive.
- Mohammed also did so when he was alive.
- For Jesus there is no proof that he did so while he was on the earth.

What do you think?

There is very little difference between the teachings of the Qu'ran and the teachings of the new Testament. Yes we can get bogged down in all the minute detail, but at the fundamental level, they are the same. And we do worship the same God. So we will all meet in Paradise.

We do worship the same God but what about the first commandment?

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

 

[TashaN]

What religion was Abraham?

Abraham was a Muslim as Allah said in the Quran because people make a mistake when they think that Mohammed(PBUH) is the founder of Islam.

Abraham (Ibrahim) is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God. (Islam regards most of the Old Testament "patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims.) While most Muslims believe that Adam, the first man, was the first Muslim (submitter to God), they universally agree that Abraham was a prophet of God.

According to the Quran, Abraham reached the conclusion that anything subject to disappearance could not be worthy of worship, and thus became a monotheist (Quran 6:76-83.) As in Jewish tradition, Abraham's father (named Azar in Islam) was an idol-maker, and Abraham broke his idols, calling on his community to worship God instead. They then cast him into a fire, which miraculously failed to burn him (Quran 37:83-98.)

64 "Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)".

65 "Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?"

66 "Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!"

67 "Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah".

68 "Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Apostle and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith".

69 "It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!"

70 "Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (Yourselves) witnesses?"

71 "Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?" (Quran 3:64-71)


"Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!" (Quran 2:140)

 

[Merlin]

Abraham was a Muslim

How sad. If you or stop wasting your time trying to prove that you are the only religion worth following, we might get a lot further on in the world, and much closer to finding out what God wants of us.

 

[Merlin]

We all know that:

- Moses made a new law when he was alive.
- Mohammed also did so when he was alive.
- For Jesus there is no proof that he did so while he was on the earth.

What do you think?


We do worship the same God but what about the first commandment?

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

There is really never any point in talking about proof. Nobody has any proof. We all only have books written by man, whatever we choose to believe that is what they are.

You also do what Christians do, you quote the Koran to prove the Koran. Christians quote the Bible to prove the Bible. It does not get anybody anywhere.

 

[Merlin]

We all know that:

- Moses made a new law when he was alive.
- Mohammed also did so when he was alive.
- For Jesus there is no proof

Can you show me your proof, and please don't just give me another verse of the Koran. I mean independent proof.

 

[Merlin]

When I was a missionary in Germany we were not allowed to teach Muslims from certain countries because they had problems with them returning home and being murdered. Perhaps this is the reason why there are so few conversions. It is my understanding that conversion from Islam to another faith is grounds for killing somone in the Koran. Correct me if I'm wrong because if this understanding is wrong I would like to know.

Now that really is a saddening response. There are three reasons:-

Why would anybody think it is better to kill somebody than have them convert to a new faith? It says very little about their own faith.

Secondly, why would anybody try to convert somebody away from Islam? why disturb somebody's devout faith. It is it perfectly sincere God-fearing religion. If we ignore the tiny lunatic extremists, it is a perfectly respectable way to find God, and they believe in all of the things that you do: no alcohol, respecting parents, no sex before marriage, no adultery, etc. (please don't quote the Gospel of John again)

Thirdly, it is really sad that you will not understand the second point.

 

[Merlin]

When I was a missionary in Germany we were not allowed to teach Muslims from certain countries because they had problems with them returning home and being murdered. Perhaps this is the reason why there are so few conversions. It is my understanding that conversion from Islam to another faith is grounds for killing somone in the Koran. Correct me if I'm wrong because if this understanding is wrong I would like to know.

In the West, we do not practise killing people who convert out of our religion. But let me put a scenario to you. However impossible it is, just run with it as though it is real.

Supposing you had wanted to marry a pagan girl. In order to win her hand, you had to convert to paganism. You agree to do this. Questions

Would your parents have attended your pagan baptism ceremony?

Would your parents and grandparents have attended your pagan wedding?

Would your parents and grandparents brothers and sisters attend pagan baptism of any resulting children?

Would you all be welcome in all of your relatives' houses?

Would your family be invited to their social gatherings?

 

[Merlin]

Abraham was a Muslim

I am fascinated by this one. What you are saying is that Islam is not 1400 years old, but maybe 2500 years old? Islam also predated Christianity by maybe as much as a thousand years?

Apart from statements in the Qu'ran, is there any other evidence?

How did Abraham's Moslem faith reveal itself in what he said or did? Where did he get his influence and inspiration from?

 

[Merlin]

Abraham was a Muslim

This is a section from Genesis, which actually suggests that he was the father of Judaism. God had set down the rules for him, one of which was circumcision. Are Moslems circumcised for religious reasons? It does sound as though Ishmael was one of the first Jews.

Ge 17:22 When he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.

Ge 17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham‘s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him.

Ge 17:24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Ge 17:26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised;

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

All I know, is I'll never be a Muslim. Why should I care what others do with their religion?

Well Darkdale, I can give you a couple of reasons tobe concerned with what others do with their religion.

And I can do so with their own words. To wit:

Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that Forbidden which hath been Forbidden by Allah and his Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 9:5 But when the Forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and sieze them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war, but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them; for Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

Sounds to me like a lot of folks out there who are Muslims, and take the Koran at face value would like to kill anyone who is not a Muslim, in an attempt to force the whole world under Muslim law. But then, Osama bin Laden, The Blind Shake, and others have been handing down Fatwa's saying to kill all non-Muslims for years, haven't they? Guess now we know where they got the idea.

That is why we have to be concerned with the religion of others. Because people use religion as a mechanism to inspire others to kill. Has been that way since time immemorial. And a quick look at modern world events indicates this notion is not going anywhere soon.

B.

 

[lilithu]

Well Darkdale, I can give you a couple of reasons tobe concerned with what others do with their religion.

And I can do so with their own words. To wit:

Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that Forbidden which hath been Forbidden by Allah and his Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 9:5 But when the Forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and sieze them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war, but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them; for Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

Sounds to me like a lot of folks out there who are Muslims, and take the Koran at face value would like to kill anyone who is not a Muslim, in an attempt to force the whole world under Muslim law. But then, Osama bin Laden, The Blind Shake, and others have been handing down Fatwa's saying to kill all non-Muslims for years, haven't they? Guess now we know where they got the idea.

That is why we have to be concerned with the religion of others. Because people use religion as a mechanism to inspire others to kill. Has been that way since time immemorial. And a quick look at modern world events indicates this notion is not going anywhere soon.

B.

You are living proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

1) The first verse that you cite says "fight" not kill. I consider myself to be "fighting" for my beliefs every day, and I have never killed anyone.

2) The second verse that you cite says to "slay the Pagans wherever ye find them." What you think that word means and what the Qur'an means by that word are not necessarily the same thing. You cite verses from the Qur'an that you think tells Muslims to kill all non-Muslims, and yet you ignore verses from the Qur'an that tell all Muslims that it is their duty to defend and protect all Christians and Jews.

3) Do you think there are no verses from the Hebrew Tanakh or the Christian bible that could similarly be miscontrued to show that they are inherently violent religions?

Yes, it's true that since time immemorial people have used religion as a mechanism to inspire others to kill. That has happened with Islam, as it has happened with other religions. AND these same religions have also been used to inspire great works of charity and justice. Islam is not the problem. Religion is not the problem. People who judge others as "us vs them" thru their own distorted views of other people's beliefs is the problem.

 

[lilithu]

Of course its important when people change from religion to a religion, you think about about i havn't heard of a muslim became a jew or christ. but i have heard of lots of non muslims became muslims....ask your self why?????

Thanks

Better marketing?

 

[Radar]

Life would be much better without any religion at all. Where people could love and marry whom ever they wanted. Where people would not have to fear there family because of religious convictions. Where people are still killing one another over a small piece of land in the middle east. Religion is a bunch of crap. It teaches hate, eternal damnation, ethnic cleansing, genocide and many other horrible acts. Look at all the lives wasted on religion. There is no heaven there is no hell only life and death and you only get one shot at it. Relgion is a frabrication of some other man with no actual proof except this book or that book says so. And before some followers of far east religions get on me about their religions not teaching hate or anything let me say I know but I still think that a world without any religion would be the best. I think without religion we as human beings would be less judgemental and more accepting of others. Religion just gives us one more prejudice. We humans have learn so much over time but we still hang on to silly, illogical, and irrational superstitions.

 

[lilithu]

I heard that you can't be a jew if your Mom is not a jew even though you wanted to convert so there is a speicfic name for "non-original jew" (but i forgot the name) which make it so clear to others that this is not a real jew.

Hey Truth, you kinda got that backwards, or the person who told it you you got it backwards. If your mother was Jewish when you were born then you are automatically considered Jewish. That doesn't mean you can't be Jewish otherwise; it just means that you have to convert. But once you convert, you are a real Jew. There's no exclusion.

 

[mr.guy]

Radar,

I'm not a big fan of religion myself (particularly the Abrahamic ones), but I bet even if we did "cleanse" ourselves of religion, we'd find plenty of other reasons to exterminate each other. Your lack of religion dosen't seem to shelter you from prejudicial thinking.