To Muslims & Non Muslims

[Merlin]

What is really, really sad is that you find it necessary to try and convert me away from my beliefs and then critisize me for teaching people who were actually interested in what I had to say.

This thread is about how excited someone was to convert people to Islam from Judasm and Christianity. He asked why no one converted from Islam. I gave an answer of why it might be.

I thought more about your response. As, clearly, I did not try to convert you to anything, I was wondering if Mormons feel that the main purpose of their religion is to convert people to it? That would make sense of your response. I did not try to convert you, but I did question your right to convert other people from honorable God-fearing religions.

Maybe it is this to which you objected. My purpose would not to convert you, but to ask you to consider what you are doing and whether it is correct?

 

[Merlin]

Are you asking me these questions? I missed the point.

From Mohammed - "Baddala deenahu, faqtuluhu" -- if anyone changes his religion, kill him (cf. Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57). Could someone who is Islamic explain this verse to me?

If we look back to the Crusades and feudal times in England and even early American history, I do not think Christians can claim to have had a blameless past.

I am not Moslem, but the ones I know are just as horrified at these mindless terrorists. Imagine what we would do it some group of radical Christians was blowing up Moslem areas in the name of Jesus? Try to argue against that one? Thank God it isn't happening (or is it)

 

[Merlin]

Are you asking me these questions? I missed the point.

How many of us are brave enough to answer that question truthfully, whether we are Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Roman Catholic, or Jewish? For completeness I repeat below:-

Supposing you had wanted to marry a pagan girl. In order to win her hand, you had to convert to paganism. You agree to do this. Questions

Would your parents have attended your pagan baptism ceremony?

Would your parents and grandparents have attended your pagan wedding?

Would your parents and grandparents brothers and sisters attend pagan baptism of any resulting children?

Would you all be welcome in all of your relatives' houses?

Would your family be invited to their social gatherings?

 

[michel]

If we look back to the Crusades and feudal times in England and even early American history, I do not think Christians can claim to have had a blameless past.

I am not Moslem, but the ones I know are just as horrified at these mindless terrorists. Imagine what we would do it some group of radical Christians was blowing up Moslem areas in the name of Jesus? Try to argue against that one? Thank God it isn't happening (or is it)

Then you are lucky in the company you keep!

have you not seen the press of the last few months where it has been requested that religious meetings and read texts be done in English, to avoid the possibility of 'recruiting home grown terrorists', right here in England ?

Don't misunderstand me, I am not 'tarring them all with the same brush' - I am just saying that there are a lot of malcontents.

 

[jonny]

How many of us are brave enough to answer that question truthfully, whether we are Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Roman Catholic, or Jewish? For completeness I repeat below:-

Supposing you had wanted to marry a pagan girl. In order to win her hand, you had to convert to paganism. You agree to do this. Questions

Would your parents have attended your pagan baptism ceremony?

Would your parents and grandparents have attended your pagan wedding?

Would your parents and grandparents brothers and sisters attend pagan baptism of any resulting children?

Would you all be welcome in all of your relatives' houses?

Would your family be invited to their social gatherings?

My parents don't love me because of my religion. They love me and support me because I am their son. They would not kick me out of their lives because I became Pagan. I don't know if my parents would attend my baptism ceremony - but I'm sure they would attend my wedding, events in their grandchildrens lives, and there would be no question about being welcome in my relatives homes and being invited to social gatherings. I feel sorry for anyone whose family puts religion over relationships.

I asked my parents and they agreed with what I wrote - Man I sure feel brave!

 

[jonny]

I thought more about your response. As, clearly, I did not try to convert you to anything, I was wondering if Mormons feel that the main purpose of their religion is to convert people to it? That would make sense of your response. I did not try to convert you, but I did question your right to convert other people from honorable God-fearing religions.

Maybe it is this to which you objected. My purpose would not to convert you, but to ask you to consider what you are doing and whether it is correct?

There was already a thread on this and I already discussed it with you. I don't feel the need to have same conversation with you in another thread. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with what I did on my mission.

 

[jonny]

If we look back to the Crusades and feudal times in England and even early American history, I do not think Christians can claim to have had a blameless past.

I am not Moslem, but the ones I know are just as horrified at these mindless terrorists. Imagine what we would do it some group of radical Christians was blowing up Moslem areas in the name of Jesus? Try to argue against that one? Thank God it isn't happening (or is it)

What they did back then was awful and in my mind does not reflect true Christianity. There is no defense for it so I won't even try. I agree with you.

 

[TashaN]

Okie Dokie,

The Truth. I have a couple of questions for you directly.

1. Do you believe in the Koran literally? By this, I mean, do you beleive that it is literally the word of Allah, as handed down to Mohammed his Prophet?

Yes it is... THE ARABIC ONE.

2. If you beleive and follow the Koran literally, do you feel it is your duty to kill infidels?

I am not asking any abstract questions here. I mean you, personally.

B.

I think you don't have a clear idea what is Quran and how anyone can use it as guidance.

Quran was a miracle in the time of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), still a miracle and it will be so as long as Allah want.

First of all, you have to know that Quran is not a normal book so anybody can't understand all of it even human books are complicated too.

Quran is perfect. We can divide the words of Quran into 3 parts.

1- some verses any arabian can understand easily when he read it.
2- some ONLY schoalrs can understand it well.
3- and there is many things in Quran still ununderstandable for human beings.

Again, i'm talking about the Arabic pure Quran because the English one is not the word of God but only a TRANSLATION from human beings and they may be right and they may be wrong. All verses have a rich and several meaning in arabic but it can only mean one thing in english sometimes which is not fair to compare with.

Persoanlly, i found many verses in the ORIGINAL Arabic Quran talks about several topics at the same time for various events when the english translator understand it in only one way which is wrong to make the words of God only in one way without observing the possiblity in arabic to have several meaning at the same time and without using the tools for arabic language you can't judge the holy Quran.

For your question, I never ever see or heard of killing people because they converted to other religions in my life. If you read in a newpaper about these issues so it might be for political reasons but not for religious reasons.

Islamic countries governement is not islamic anymore and they just may use islam to satisfy thier desires only and some still using islam as a law but they apply some and ignore the rest.

It's not fair to judge a christian based in his attitude and at the same time it's not fair to judge a muslims according to his.

If you really want to know what is the truth so then, you have to see this religion and what is it's target and it's teaching then you can judge.

Finally, no body .. NO ONE has the authority to do anything to any other muslims or non-muslim. Only the governement has the authority to do so.

You are telling me is it your duty to kill infidels ??

Do you think muslims are barbaric???

I never killed a chicken in my whole life.

No body can kill anyone buddy. We are not in the forest or in any movie in the middle of the jungle.

Please wake up.

If your government wasn't secular and IF only IF it was a christian one so it was about to put people to death if they had sex without marriage.

i'll give you an example...

If you are reading a story in any book and while you are reading you found a statment ...

"Kill them for what they did".

How is that???

You have to go back to the whole page, the whole book to understand who made this order to kill in this story and why is that and in which condition they did so and is it forever or only for that particular group. Maybe for thier children and all the tribe forever???? is it possible to think so this way??? :areyoucra

No of course.

another example, When i read the bible i never catch a verse and say OOh see ... the bible said KILL ... WRONG. :tsk:

I have to read the whole chapter and to understand the whole story about it before i can judge it.

Nowdays, We can find many non-Muslims argue of things in Quran or in islam as a whole and they never have any knowledge about it but they catch and pick any statment saying .. SEE

THIS IS THE PROOF !!!!

This is ridiculous actually.

i'm sorry to say that most of muslims nowdays are not real muslims but just muslims by name and they apply some of what islam teach and they ignore what thier desires wants.

Brother, If you have anything to ask about it in Quran i'm ready insha Allah and i can explain for you because there is no a single muslims dare to use Quran this way but they go to scholars seeking for it's real meaning, when was that, is it still valid or not. Got it?

I hope that you got my point and what i'm trying to say.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Darkdale]

Maybe it is this to which you objected. My purpose would not to convert you, but to ask you to consider what you are doing and whether it is correct?

May I ask you some questions, give you my judgement of you (personally), then tell you some things I think you are doing which are wrong, which beliefs you hold that are incorrect and then maybe see if we can figure out if what you are doing and how you are living is really virtuous or if you might need a new religion?

 

[lilithu]

Then you are lucky in the company you keep!

have you not seen the press of the last few months where it has been requested that religious meetings and read texts be done in English, to avoid the possibility of 'recruiting home grown terrorists', right here in England ?

Don't misunderstand me, I am not 'tarring them all with the same brush' - I am just saying that there are a lot of malcontents.

Michel, that "request" does not prove there are a lot of "malcontents." All it proves is that people are afraid that there might be a lot of malcontents. Whether or not their fear is justified, I cannot tell from what you said.

I find this very sad, because Arabic is the holy language for Muslims. It's simply not the same thing to ask them to read the Qur'an in English.

 

[Radar]

Does anyone know what Truth is saying?????? All I read is incoherent babble.

 

[mr.guy]

Radar, may i suggest you do what we often advise him to? Taste, chew, THEN swallow.

 

[michel]

Michel, that "request" does not prove there are a lot of "malcontents." All it proves is that people are afraid that there might be a lot of malcontents. Whether or not their fear is justified, I cannot tell from what you said.

I find this very sad, because Arabic is the holy language for Muslims. It's simply not the same thing to ask them to read the Qur'an in English.

Sad as it is, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, Lilithu, there is evidence that previously docile Muslims are being drawn into believing that they have to take sides - the proof of the pudding is in the eating; those who were caught for the second "Botched bombing" in London admitted to this - they were even proud of it.

One Muslim Cleric was extradited, because he insisted in trying to stir up trouble (and was foolish enough to do so in English). Even if these malcontents are not willing to fight themselves, the greater number of them have openly admitted that if they were in possession of details of a plot, they would not report them to the police.

I am all in favour of live and let live, but I must admit that my blood pressure does rise when people we have taken into this country become determined to kill us..........

 

[Darkdale]

I am all in favour of live and let live, but I must admit that my blood pressure does rise when people we have taken into this country become determined to kill us..........

That's why you need folk willing to kill them first. However, if we'd just let the Middle East form more Islamic States, I'm sure many fundamentalist Muslims would immigrate back to their holy lands to live in societies that suit their religious needs. Another good reason to pull the West out of the Middle East all together.

 

[michel]

That's why you need folk willing to kill them first. However, if we'd just let the Middle East form more Islamic States, I'm sure many fundamentalist Muslims would immigrate back to their holy lands to live in societies that suit their religious needs. Another good reason to pull the West out of the Middle East all together.

Dream on - ooooops, I just saw a pig just flying outside my bedroom window.............:biglaugh:

Do you really think they will go back ? - aren't they comfortable here, with State benefits, free healthcare, and a far less strict application of the law ?. I wish...........

 

[mr.guy]

michel, you make muslims sound pretty diabolically opportunistic. That isn't your intent, is it?

 

[Darkdale]

Dream on - ooooops, I just saw a pig just flying outside my bedroom window.............:biglaugh:

Do you really think they will go back ? - aren't they comfortable here, with State benefits, free healthcare, and a far less strict application of the law ?. I wish...........

But they are surrounded with evil, horrible infidels. I'm sure they'd much prefer a pure state where everyone is blessed with the humanity of Islamic Law, which for them is Holy. Obviously it would be wrong for them to force Christians and Pagans to follow Islamic law, but in their own countries that would be free to follow such law. And there wouldn't be any Jews there either, so they could live in peace (as long as the United States minds it's own business).

Diversity is good, just look at America, England and France. Only problem is, that diversity requires everyone to be tolerant of everyone else and when your religion states that "outsiders" are evil servants of Satan, well, you can see why some folk aren't tolerant! Shoot, I live just north of the Bible Belt in the South and folk down there are rather fundamentalist as well. But maybe we can give them Kentucky or something as a Christian State lol.

 

[michel]

michel, you make muslims sound pretty diabolically opportunistic. That isn't your intent, is it?

Who, me ?

I don't think it is so much a case of diabollically opportunistic, as just plain sensible; honestly, if your home was in Afghanistan, or in most of Africa, or in Iraq, would you want to rush 'Home', having settled here ?

Look at the members we have here, on this forum (born and bred Americans, and Englishmen - don't you see the disconted here ? - I think that if our own discontents had somewhere else to go and live, they would.

 

[TashaN]

Who, me ?

I don't think it is so much a case of diabollically opportunistic, as just plain sensible; honestly, if your home was in Afghanistan, or in most of Africa, or in Iraq, would you want to rush 'Home', having settled here ?

Look at the members we have here, on this forum (born and bred Americans, and Englishmen - don't you see the disconted here ? - I think that if our own discontents had somewhere else to go and live, they would.

Dear Michel,

What about the Muslims who are originaly european or american?

by the way, I don't live in the west and i don't want to .... I LOVE IT HERE

I just want to give an advice to the western governments.

WHEN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ASK YOU TO SUBMIT CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ESCAPED TO YOUR COUNTRY "TERRORISTS" SO DON'T IGNORE THEM GIVING THOSE PEOPLE A WONDERFUL PLACE TO LIVE FEEDING THEM TOO OR THEY WILL BITE THE HAND WHICH FEED THEM AS THEY DID SO WITH THIER OWN COUNTRY. :tsk:

 

[Merlin]

Dear Michel,

What about the Muslims who are originaly european or american?

by the way, I don't live in the west and i don't want to .... I LOVE IT HERE

I just want to give an advice to the western governments.

WHEN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ASK YOU TO SUBMIT CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ESCAPED TO YOUR COUNTRY "TERRORISTS" SO DON'T IGNORE THEM GIVING THOSE PEOPLE A WONDERFUL PLACE TO LIVE FEEDING THEM TOO OR THEY WILL BITE THE HAND WHICH FEED THEM AS THEY DID SO WITH THIER OWN COUNTRY. :tsk:

Are you prepared to tell us where is your home?