No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do realize that these people put their lives at stake to care for many before a vaccine ever existed... all unvaccinated. Now that many better measures are implemented (besides a vaccine) the more knowledge gained over the first year or so of the virus...less medical staff deaths. They are better trained with hygiene, procedures, wearing masks. They are not face to face and spitting in people’s faces. Instead of being respected, you are condemning them while belittling others who say they don’t appreciate them. Mirror is still there.

There's no issue with front line health care staff who are doing their best in trying circumstances. Now that safe, effective vaccines are readily available, "doing their best" includes getting vaccinated.

I'm not sure why you're having such a problem understanding this.

 

[Alienistic]

There's no issue with front line health care staff who are doing their best in trying circumstances. Now that safe, effective vaccines are readily available, "doing their best" includes getting vaccinated.

I'm not sure why you're having such a problem understanding this.

You have said that many vaccinated medical staff have been killed while stating the effectiveness of the vaccine.

I’m not disagreeing with you regarding the best way to approach going forward, I’m disagreeing at many’s attempt to speak so poorly of the unvaccinated 1/3 of medical staff who have done nothing but risk their own lives, have saved so many lives and cared for people before and after a vaccine. That is what is terrible. People who just come on a forum, aren’t in this field and bash these people while doing little themselves have the audacity to condemn these medical professionals who are the ones on the frontlines.

“These people don’t care about others and are selfish yet ALL they’ve been doing is caring for others unselfishly.” It’s insane.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Like the new "anti-abortion" law in Texas?

I don't see any connection.

 

[F1fan]

I haven't heard of herd immunity until almost recently. (At least in the US), I feel it's a foregone conclusion. I guess we won't know given the Delta Variant and what other measures they will take in the future.

Seriously? Herd immunity was literally talked about from the start of the pandemic. It was even referred to by the trump administration as they were considering the USA not lock down and just let Covid run rampant through the population so herd immunity was achieved naturally. Of course trump's economic advisor estimated over 2 million citizens would die in that approach. They considered it. Eventually states and cities decided to lockdown. Remember the administration never advocated for any lockdowns. These select states and cities were not open to a death rate in the millions. This was why we needed lock downs, because the goal of natural herd immunity was not morally acceptable, so the other option was to lock down so the virus stopped spreading and we could buy time for vaccine development.

It doesn't. People not choosing to vaccinate isn't going against medical advice. You can't know that based on what they do and don't do. I mean, vaccinated person can just jump to get the vaccine without even researching what vaccines are. Most relatively healthy people may not take that into consideration, but I'd home many do.

If a person is not sure if they are healthy enough to get vaccinated it is up to a healthcare expert to assess. A lay person doing research on the internet? That is what fools do.

Plus those who are choosing to not vaccinate for political reasons, not medical reasons, ARE going against medical advice. The medical advice is: Get vaccinated. If you are afraid or uncertain, talk to your doctor.

US has a lot of people vaccinated already. I'm surprised that in those states where there is a small amount of unvaccinated (for whatever reason) they don't see a huge drop in cases (not deaths) so we can see the cause and effect clear enough to be investigated. It would have to be a huge shift but one can't jump to conclusions that cases drop means we reached herd immunity. US is just too big to make a conclusion like that.

You don't seem to understand how any of this works. We lay people aren't in a position to conclude anything. We need to listen to what experts in public health say. As it is, conservatives are not listening to experts. And America, and the world, faces a fall and winter that could be devastating to life and the economy.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Anti-vax nurses....such an odd animal.
Their own organization supports Covid vaxing.
ANA Supports Mandated COVID-19 Vaccinations for Nurses and All Health Care Professionals

Moreover....
Vaccines/Nurses
Excerpted...
Nurses give a lot of vaccines. But they also need vaccines! By the nature of their work, nurses come into contact with many infectious diseases, the most notable of which is influenza. Vaccination is an important way to stay protected from contracting a disease at work.

But vaccination can also protect the nurse's patients and family. While at work, a nurse may unknowingly pass a disease on to the patient, especially when critically ill or the most vulnerable, such as newborns. In addition, if a nurse contracts an illness from work, he or she can pass it on to her family members.

Don't risk it - be vaccinated. Being vaccinated against all diseases, from measles to influenza to whooping cough, can prevent the transmission of disease and protect nurses, their patients, and their families!

Nurses have a responsibility to be up-to-date on recommended routine vaccines. An immunization promotes optimal health and protects patients and the community from vaccine preventable diseases. Nurses work in environments where they are exposed to many communicable diseases and infections, so it's especially important to have the following vaccines:

• Seasonal Influenza - get your influenza vaccine every fall!
• Tetanus, Diphtheria, and Pertussis (Tdap) - especially for nurses working with newborn or compromised infants
• Measles, Mumps, and Rubella
• Hepatitis B
• Varicella
• Meningococcal - CDC recommends one dose if you are often exposed to isolates of N. meningitidis

You have to wonder why those who actually work in the medical field don't want the vaccine. Perhaps it's something ,they have seen?

 

[metis]

I would trust a nurse’s medically trained input for their bodies over yours.

Generally speaking, nurses are not researchers.

 

[metis]

You have to wonder why those who actually work in the medical field don't want the vaccine.

Really? Well here in Michigan one of the largest hospital systems [Henry Ford] announced yesterday that 98% of their employees are vaccinated, and the largest one [Beaumont] is somewhere around that level.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Really? Well here in Michigan one of the largest hospital systems [Henry Ford] announced yesterday that 98% of their employees are vaccinated, and the largest one [Beaumont] is somewhere around that level.

Did they really have a choice, or were they pressured?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

My question though is why can't vaccinated people be misled?

Just because they feel they made the right decision doesn't mean they arrived there logically.


If you apply it to one side you have to the other

No, I don’t.
There is nothing magical about people who chose vaccination. As mere human beings they are capable of being duped, just like you or me.
The key in your reply is this statement. “Just because they feel they made the right decision doesn't mean they arrived there logically.”

Very few people in the world come to most of their daily decisions through a path of rigorous logic, with full ready access to all of the information they need to make a well informed decision. No, most of us go with what information we have haphazardly picked up, particularly from sources we trust.
But in regards to the COVID infection and whether or not to get the vaccination; the results show, undeniably, that those who get vaccinated are making the right decision. Now, in retrospect of millions of cases, we can see that these people were well informed (about as “logical” as we can hope to get ).
Everybody feels that they made the right decision. Only crazed loons carry out life or death decisions against the safety of their children and themselves purely out of spite. Now, in retrospect, we can see that the anti-vax people were poorly informed. They were misled.
Which brings us back to what information they have haphazardly picked up, and who they (mistakenly) trust as their information sources.


Opinion | Why the GOP is choosing paranoia over saving the lives of its own voters

Right-Wing Vaccine Lies Are Tearing the Country Apart

The Tucker Carlson Fans Who Got Vaxxed

Here Are The Republicans Most Likely To Refuse The Covid-19 Vaccine, Poll Finds

One side. The Republican side. Have been misled by their own leaders, and by their choice of trusted media/news. ​

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Every citizen has a responsibility for public health. It's not a society of "do anything you damn well please, and the healthcare system will try to offset poor judgments".

For much of America, that's exactly how they feel, although they have learned not to use that kind of language. Instead they talk about freedom, and depict efforts to protect the people around them, whether in restaurants and airplanes requiring masks and vaccines, or from unvaccinated hospital staff, as dictatorial

They have no sense of public duty or they would be vaccinated, just as somebody with a sense of public duty pays his taxes and fights just wars, whereas the person who thinks only of himself evades both just as he refuses the vaccine. There is no sense of community, just self. No team spirit or sense of band of brothers, no fellow Americans - just other people around them in America.

When you listen to the conservative governors speaking speaking, there is never any mention of community, public safety, or the collective good - just freedom, hypocritical exclamations of government overreach as they suppress school boards wanting mask mandates, no sense of their being experts or expert advice, just "I trust the people of Florida/South Dakota/Iowa/Texas to know what's best for themselves."

And it's the same on RF. I have been commenting for weeks on the absence of even a single scintilla of interest in what others want, only what they want. They want to do whatever they like without judgment or mandate, and have no interest in what others expect of them or what others want.

I think the day will come when many vaccine refusers deny that they ever held that position, and many Trump voters will deny having voted for him, and many climate deniers will claim that they were always onboard simply to avoid the stigma with contemporaries and descendants. I've seen it already.

I had an acquaintance here in Mexico, also an American expat, who died last month of COVID in a Texas hospital, where his daughter put him when he fell ill here in Mexico. Howard refused the vaccine, claiming that the antibodies from the COVID infection he survived the year before gave him even more protection than he had last time when he came through without a vaccine or native post-infectious antibodies. But, he died anyway, presumably because this isn't the same disease any more since delta came to town. as we see with more break-though infection in the vaccinated, younger people getting infected and more, and people of all ages getting more sick more quickly and dying more often and in less time.

Howard died in his Texas hospital bed, maybe one that that vet in Texas who died with easily treatable gallstone pancreatitis for lack of a hospital bed could have used. Then Howard's obituary appeared, written by his survivors, calling him fully vaccinated before death, a huge disservice to those who don't know that that was a lie and worry that they too will die of COVID when in fact that is unlikely if one is fully vaccinated.

I've heard of other families trying to keep COVID off the death certificate because of the stigma accruing for people who die of that disease after having refused a recommended vaccine. I just read about a younger couple with five minor children living at home who are now both dead of COVID. The comments are almost exclusively empathy for the children and condemnation of the parents for leaving them orphans due to their bad choices. That's hw they'll be remembered. Contrast that with them having drowned in a New York basement or during the collapse of a building - people who are now seen sympathetically. Not these COVID deaths. They will be seen as ignorant, self-centered people that left their children orphans as surely as if they had died together fixing heroin.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You have said that many vaccinated medical staff have been killed while stating the effectiveness of the vaccine.

I’m not disagreeing with you regarding the best way to approach going forward, I’m disagreeing at many’s attempt to speak so poorly of the unvaccinated 1/3 of medical staff who have done nothing but risk their own lives, have saved so many lives and cared for people before and after a vaccine. That is what is terrible. People who just come on a forum, aren’t in this field and bash these people while doing little themselves have the audacity to condemn these medical professionals who are the ones on the frontlines.

“These people don’t care about others and are selfish yet ALL they’ve been doing is caring for others unselfishly.” It’s insane.

It's like you can't comprehend that context matters.

"Last year, I gave my buddy a tracheotomy with my pen knife and no anesthetic to save his life when we were out in the woods last year! Why can't I do that in the OR now? Are you saying that saving his life last year was wrong?! How could you condemn me by saying that I can't do what I did before now that there are better, safer options available?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did they really have a choice, or were they pressured?

If they were offered the choice between being vaccinated and finding another job, then they had a choice.

 

[metis]

Did they really have a choice, or were they pressured?

At first, the former, but the decision was made roughly a month ago that all would have to be by I think October or submit to weekly tests.

Vaccines work-- it really is that simple-- and people who care about others will get vaccinated.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't see any connection.

"The law invites citizens to sue each other for a minimum of $10,000 if they suspect someone of “aiding and abetting” an abortion after the six-week cutoff. It sets a dangerous precedent for any number of social issues, by putting money not just into politics, but into actual policy."
Texas’s New Abortion Law Is Selling The Soul Of America


How about now?

 

[F1fan]

I get everything up to "misled."

How does choosing not to unvaccinated mean someone is misled?

Assuming they aren't advised to not get the vaccine for medical reasons, what is their basis for not getting a vaccination while millions are?

The two don't inherently relate to each other.

Someone choosing to vaccinate could have been misled.

How so?

We could have all been misled-who knows.

How do you know otherwise?

So you are paranoid? Your line of thinking here strikes me as how conspiracy theorists end up believing nonsense.

At some point we need to be rational people who can function in society. We have to trust experts and professionals to do their jobs just as we trust other drivers not to run red lights. Being hyper-critical will leave a person dysfunctional eventually, and perhaps a threat to others and the self. How many have questioned vaccines, been infected, and then regretted their skepticism as they died? There have been patients pleading for the vaccine in the hospital and don't realize it was too late. Rational people make risk assessments realistically. They don't keep confusing themselves with questions they can't answer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You have to wonder why those who actually work in the medical field don't want the vaccine. Perhaps it's something ,they have seen?

The vast majority of those in the medical field do want the vaccine, though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For much of America, that's exactly how they feel, although they have learned not to use that kind of language. Instead they talk about freedom, and depict efforts to protect the people around them, whether in restaurants and airplanes requiring masks and vaccines, or from unvaccinated hospital staff, as dictatorial

They have no sense of public duty or they would be vaccinated, just as somebody with a sense of public duty pays his taxes and fights just wars, whereas the person who thinks only of himself evades both just as he refuses the vaccine. There is no sense of community, just self. No team spirit or sense of band of brothers, no fellow Americans - just other people around them in America.

When you listen to the conservative governors speaking speaking, there is never any mention of community, public safety, or the collective good - just freedom, hypocritical exclamations of government overreach as they suppress school boards wanting mask mandates, no sense of their being experts or expert advice, just "I trust the people of Florida/South Dakota/Iowa/Texas to know what's best for themselves."

And the thing is that they're going against their stated values.

If having to wear a mask is a restriction on a person's freedom, how much more of a restriction on freedom is having to be on a ventilator?

Any public place that you can't get into because they refuse unvaccinated people is somewhere you won't be going when you're lying in a hospital bed, tied to machines.

 

[SkepticThinker]

For much of America, that's exactly how they feel, although they have learned not to use that kind of language. Instead they talk about freedom, and depict efforts to protect the people around them, whether in restaurants and airplanes requiring masks and vaccines, or from unvaccinated hospital staff, as dictatorial

They have no sense of public duty or they would be vaccinated, just as somebody with a sense of public duty pays his taxes and fights just wars, whereas the person who thinks only of himself evades both just as he refuses the vaccine. There is no sense of community, just self. No team spirit or sense of band of brothers, no fellow Americans - just other people around them in America.

When you listen to the conservative governors speaking speaking, there is never any mention of community, public safety, or the collective good - just freedom, hypocritical exclamations of government overreach as they suppress school boards wanting mask mandates, no sense of their being experts or expert advice, just "I trust the people of Florida/South Dakota/Iowa/Texas to know what's best for themselves."

And it's the same on RF. I have been commenting for weeks on the absence of even a single scintilla of interest in what others want, only what they want. They want to do whatever they like without judgment or mandate, and have no interest in what others expect of them or what others want.

I think the day will come when many vaccine refusers deny that they ever held that position, and many Trump voters will deny having voted for him, and many climate deniers will claim that they were always onboard simply to avoid the stigma with contemporaries and descendants. I've seen it already.

I had an acquaintance here in Mexico, also an American expat, who died last month of COVID in a Texas hospital, where his daughter put him when he fell ill here in Mexico. Howard refused the vaccine, claiming that the antibodies from the COVID infection he survived the year before gave him even more protection than he had last time when he came through without a vaccine or native post-infectious antibodies. But, he died anyway, presumably because this isn't the same disease any more since delta came to town. as we see with more break-though infection in the vaccinated, younger people getting infected and more, and people of all ages getting more sick more quickly and dying more often and in less time.

Howard died in his Texas hospital bed, maybe one that that vet in Texas who died with easily treatable gallstone pancreatitis for lack of a hospital bed could have used. Then Howard's obituary appeared, written by his survivors, calling him fully vaccinated before death, a huge disservice to those who don't know that that was a lie and worry that they too will die of COVID when in fact that is unlikely if one is fully vaccinated.

I've heard of other families trying to keep COVID off the death certificate because of the stigma accruing for people who die of that disease after having refused a recommended vaccine. I just read about a younger couple with five minor children living at home who are now both dead of COVID. The comments are almost exclusively empathy for the children and condemnation of the parents for leaving them orphans due to their bad choices. That's hw they'll be remembered. Contrast that with them having drowned in a New York basement or during the collapse of a building - people who are now seen sympathetically. Not these COVID deaths. They will be seen as ignorant, self-centered people that left their children orphans as surely as if they had died together fixing heroin.

I wish I could give this like, ten "Winner" ratings.
Well said.

 

[PureX]

Is the solution condemning, shaming, guilting others into this?

Yes. Humans need to be censured for their selfish and destructive behaviors. Otherwise they will not learn how and why it's necessary to cooperate with others. For most of us this comes when we're children, but thanks to an advertising industry that tells us incessantly that we can have, do, and be whatever we want (for a price), and thanks to a morally bankrupt political party that proselytizes that selfishness is 'freedom', we have a nation full of adults that still haven't learned how to 'play well with others'. And that think every issue is all about them and what they want. As adults, they should feel ashamed of themselves for such gross selfishness, but they don't. Because no one ever taught them to be. So better late than never. Let them cry and whine and throw their childish tantrums, just as we should have done when they were children, and then make the behave as they need to, anyway.

IPretty much the same everywhere, if someone has yet to be vaccinated, don’t wish it to be mandated on everyone....they are labeled as a self obsessed, selfish, terrible human being, and all other derogatory names and words.

They are being labeled that way because they are behaving that way.

I’m no anti-vaxer, or anti-mask.... I simply myself wish not to condemn, shame, or guilt anyone, or try to divide and pin common folk against common folk. This to me is the self obsessed or selfish approach. There are far better solutions.

Those other better solutions take time and are not being implemented, and the problem is immediate. The time for the better solutions is past. Now we need to take action.

I appreciate all of the work all vaccinated and unvaccinated medical staff members have been doing without bias in treating others.

That's wonderful, but it's not going to solve the immediate problem. We need to get more people vaccinated before the virus morphs and spreads and kills a lot more people.

 

[Revoltingest]

You have to wonder why those who actually work in the medical field don't want the vaccine. Perhaps it's something ,they have seen?

One nurse I know of personally has seen "the light", ie, that
Satan created the Covid 19 pandemic, & it can only be stopped
by enuf Christian prayer. (Getting vaxxed must be just giving in
to Satan's plan, eh.) Does that sound like more cromulent
evidence than what immunologists & epidemiologists offer?

Most nurses see the usefulness of vaccination. And in any field,
people with disorganized minds that allow belief in strange &
dysfunctional things can get the job. Why believe a minority
in a field that lacks expertise in the field?