Conversing with religious fundamentalists

[metis]

Generally speaking, it's quite difficult to have a constructive conversation with those who take the "my way or the highway" approach on religious matters.

 

[Brickjectivity]

In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations.

This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts of Deuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of YHWH.

Dead Sea Scrolls (4QDeutj) Deuteronomy 32:8-9

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

"The later Masoretic text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed by the phrase, altered it to "according to the number of the children of Israel"."

The Bible and Interpretation

Its good to know that information and argument. The nature of fundamentalism is such that we can get another kind of fundamentalism that skips past the principles in the Bible and History. We can get a reader who believes with absolute certainty (with zeal) Smith's interpolation of History, which is not how things ought to go, either. I saw this happen with a couple of other books: Paul the Mythmaker... and even The DaVinci Code!

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

When people say those words
I wonder what he is taking for Jesus himself to appear.
I remember Christ saying in the Bible:

Matthew 24:23-26 New International Version (NIV)
At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

So what can I say?
I'm Christian, you're Baha'i
I should be worried because
That's in the Bible.

Ever notice you can use parts pf the Bible to disprove other parts of the Bible?

 

[MJFlores]

When I read this, I wonder if you are telling me I'm following a false prophet? If so, how do you know for certain?

Not sayin' that he is a false prophet. Just readin' the Bible.
When Jesus said:
"“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

Anyone would mean a man, woman or child.
When that person says "There he is....here he is...."
Jesus said: "Do not believe it."

The real Jesus Christ will definitely come, alright but before that he knows there will be these kind of incidents.

 

[sealchan]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

For the most part fundies are great people...but when you get to talking about anything outside of their personal experience they will probably seek shelter under the small sky of their faith. So talking politics and what is going on in other countries will bring out these sorts of fear and ignorance based responses. For them it truly is a small world after all...inside the bunker that our president is trying to build for them.

But we live, thankfully, most of our lives within the context of our day to day effort. Although what happens in the world is truly important, it is not too hard to get along with the xenophobes (my father being one of them) if you stay on the ample safe ground we all walk on.

 

[MJFlores]

Ever notice you can use parts pf the Bible to disprove other parts of the Bible?

Can you provide examples?
I could use parts of the Bible to disprove Catechism.
But verses vs verses - that would be something.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ever notice you can use parts pf the Bible to disprove other parts of the Bible?

If one quotes only parts of verses the Bible says at least twelve times "there is no God ". I found that at a Christian website that was warning against quoting out of context. If anyone quotes without chapter and verse it is a nice way to counter. People may try to respond by finding one of two of the verses in context, but one only needs to say "I did not mean that verse". The odds are huge that they will quit looking before they find all of them.

The point is that one can support almost anything by quoting the Bible out of context. And even in context there are times that your claim is true.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If one quotes only parts of verses the Bible says at least twelve times "there is no God ". I found that at a Christian website that was warning against quoting out of context. If anyone quotes without chapter and verse it is a nice way to counter. People may try to respond by finding one of two of the verses in context, but one only needs to say "I did not mean that verse". The odds are huge that they will quit looking before they find all of them.

The point is that one can support almost anything by quoting the Bible out of context. And even in context there are times that your claim is true.

True. However my point was more directed at the people who will take anything that seems wholesome or good and attempt to make it seem evil. Take many fundamentalists' attitude to the UN. I was being too obscure, and it's off topic anyway, let's not continue.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Can you provide examples?
I could use parts of the Bible to disprove Catechism.
But verses vs verses - that would be something.

Wasn't really what I was aiming for, but sure, if you want;

101 Contradictions in the Bible.

 

[MJFlores]

Wasn't really what I was aiming for, but sure, if you want;

101 Contradictions in the Bible.

Thank you very much
I would have fun time examining that link.

In fact, the first verse was already dissected.
Most of the time the error is on what Bible more clearly shows the verse.

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

• God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
• Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

KJ21
2 Samuel 24: 1
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he [Satan] moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

KJ21
I Chronicles 2 1:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Satan did.

 

[sayak83]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

Usually a firm expression of confidence in your own belief/worldview is the best way to start a conversion that may be fruitful and informative.

 

[viole]

Not sayin' that he is a false prophet. Just readin' the Bible.
When Jesus said:
"“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

Anyone would mean a man, woman or child.
When that person says "There he is....here he is...."
Jesus said: "Do not believe it."

The real Jesus Christ will definitely come, alright but before that he knows there will be these kind of incidents.

I suggest He also uses a hash tag like #theRealJC, when He returns.
Just in case

Ciao

- viole

 

[Revoltingest]

Usually a firm expression of confidence in your own belief/worldview is the best way to start a conversion that may be fruitful and informative.

I prefer to find out what concerns them most.
This does 2 things....
- Let's you know what will be most interesting to discuss.
- Everyone likes inquires about their opinions.

 

[metis]

Instead of using the word "contradictions", theologians tend to much more often use the word "variations", namely that two or more verses on the same narrative do not read the same but that they may or may not actually contradict one another.

 

[metis]

I could use parts of the Bible to disprove Catechism.

But that would have to based on interpretation, unless one takes the position that only their own interpretation must be the correct one..

Can you provide examples?

How many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where were he/they located, what did he/they say, and what exactly did the women do afterward and to whom?

To save ya time, no two gospels agree, which is actually a strength, not a weakness imo.

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure how helpful it is to use the word cult or suggest mind programming (brainwashing). The word is pejorative and overused IMHO. There are exceptions such as the Branch Davidians. I wonder if a better phrase is over-controlling religious leadership (just as you can have over-controlling parents).

I am referring to a set of tactics intended to force and reinforce a set of beliefs and behaviors. Seems to me that the more "fundamental" religionists get, the more they go in for these tactics. And in a free society it is very difficult to determine when an individual has lost their self-will to these tactics. Yet, clearly, it does happen, as the more extreme and destructive cults have shown us, many times. Not liking the term "cult" doesn't render the phenomena insignificant.

 

[Nakosis]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

IMO, not your job to correct a believers beliefs. Still you can share your own experiences and maybe find common ground.

Just don't enter a conversation with the intent of correcting someone else's belief. Let life take care of that.

 

[Vinayaka]

IMO, not your job to correct a believers beliefs. Still you can share your own experiences and maybe find common ground.

Just don't enter a conversation with the intent of correcting someone else's belief. Let life take care of that.

Ahhh ... the irony.

 

[sooda]

Its good to know that information and argument. The nature of fundamentalism is such that we can get another kind of fundamentalism that skips past the principles in the Bible and History. We can get a reader who believes with absolute certainty (with zeal) Smith's interpolation of History, which is not how things ought to go, either. I saw this happen with a couple of other books: Paul the Mythmaker... and even The DaVinci Code!

Fundamentalism doesn't permit anyone to question or study. Shame really.

 

[Dawnofhope]

IMO, not your job to correct a believers beliefs. Still you can share your own experiences and maybe find common ground.

Just don't enter a conversation with the intent of correcting someone else's belief. Let life take care of that.

Thank you for correcting me