Conversing with religious fundamentalists

[Nakosis]

Thank you for correcting me

Yes, I know, but the intent was only to comment on what works for me. Use at your own risk.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Generally speaking, it's quite difficult to have a constructive conversation with those who take the "my way or the highway" approach on religious matters.

In some instances that may be an understatement and certainly my experience talking to this particular soccer Dad. I could have just walked off or immediately ended the conversation, but am pleased I didn't.

One of the guy's heroes is Billy Graham, one of America's sons. He's inspired a couple of generations of Christians who want to preach the gospel, even if its to an audience of one!

 

[Brickjectivity]

Fundamentalism doesn't permit anyone to question or study. Shame really.

Yes, and I kid you not it was about the DaVinci Code book. I couldn't believe my ears, and they wanted to waste my time telling me what to think.

 

[Vinayaka]

IMO, not your job to correct a believers beliefs. Still you can share your own experiences and maybe find common ground.

Just don't enter a conversation with the intent of correcting someone else's belief. Let life take care of that.

On further contemplation, indeed this poor chap maybe just wanted to watch his son play soccer, and not be bothered. I know I wouldn't appreciate anyone coming by to discuss politics or religion while I watch my grandkids play ball. It would take the fun out of an otherwise enjoyable evening.

 

[sooda]

Yes, and I kid you not it was about the DaVinci Code book. I couldn't believe my ears, and they wanted to waste my time telling me what to think.

The DaVinci Code was fun fiction.. Nothing more.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not sayin' that he is a false prophet. Just readin' the Bible.
When Jesus said:
"“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

Anyone would mean a man, woman or child.
When that person says "There he is....here he is...."
Jesus said: "Do not believe it."

The real Jesus Christ will definitely come, alright but before that he knows there will be these kind of incidents.

Along with the warning about false prophets is the necessity of recognising true prophets. Some Christians believe His return will be accompanied by miraculous signs that literally fulfil scripture. The Pharisees made the same mistake when they rejected Jesus.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For the most part fundies are great people...but when you get to talking about anything outside of their personal experience they will probably seek shelter under the small sky of their faith. So talking politics and what is going on in other countries will bring out these sorts of fear and ignorance based responses. For them it truly is a small world after all...inside the bunker that our president is trying to build for them.

But we live, thankfully, most of our lives within the context of our day to day effort. Although what happens in the world is truly important, it is not too hard to get along with the xenophobes (my father being one of them) if you stay on the ample safe ground we all walk on.

I agree with this. Its important to recognise the good in all people, overlook the negatives and find common when we can. Sometimes it does help to acknowledge our differences too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Usually a firm expression of confidence in your own belief/worldview is the best way to start a conversion that may be fruitful and informative.

That's pretty much what happened. When I mentioned I was on the interfaith council and how we had supported the Muslim community in the aftermath of the Christchurch massacre my acquaintance felt the need to share his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. From the clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am referring to a set of tactics intended to force and reinforce a set of beliefs and behaviors. Seems to me that the more "fundamental" religionists get, the more they go in for these tactics. And in a free society it is very difficult to determine when an individual has lost their self-will to these tactics. Yet, clearly, it does happen, as the more extreme and destructive cults have shown us, many times. Not liking the term "cult" doesn't render the phenomena insignificant.

I agree. Some fundamentalist like to label almost all beliefs that are dissimilar to themselves as cults. The irony is some Christian fundamentalist groups become much more cult like than the groups they criticise.

 

[CG Didymus]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

For a Christian to follow the "fundamentals" of the Bible and NT, is not a negative thing. That is what a Christian is supposed to do. But, like Baha'is point out, most are following a Christian leaders interpretation of what is "fundamental" to being a true Christian.

Unfortunately, for liberal Christians, Mormons, JW's, Catholics and people of any other religion, including Judaism, the God of the Fundamental Christian, (I'll call them FC), is not part of your religion. So, to an FC, you don't know the true God of the Bible. And we all know who this God is... The Father, Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you don't believe that basic "fundamental" belief, you're already wrong. Next, you've got to believe that there is a spiritual battle going on for your soul. Satan the devil, created by God, but this Satan turned evil and rebelled against God. If you don't believe that Satan is real. You're not believing the "fundamentals" of what they say the Bible and the NT teaches.

Of course, we all know it gets more and more extreme on believing things in the Bible as literal... Creation, the Flood, the Resurrection and the it is Jesus coming back. So good luck as a Baha'i. You don't have much in common with an FC. But, they don't have much in common with each other either. The most extreme differences are between the ones that believe in the "gifts" of the Spirit and those that don't believe those "gifts" are still going on. The one group, supposedly, lives by and swears by the Bible, but they don't speak in tongues and do other things of that sort.

The other guys, get really emotional and lay hands on each other and cast out demons and have big time healing services. It's really a lot of fun, if you believe it's all real. Otherwise, it looks like a bunch of kooks jumping up and down. But, no matter what others think, it's working for them. It's building up their faith and trust in what they are being taught about the Bible is the truth. How you gonna argue against that? They feel God's presence. Some of them believe they've been healed or had other miracle happen in their lives. They've experienced the Truth of God and Jesus. and, many of them, have experienced the devil too... And needed Jesus to save them from the wiles of the devil.

So what you gonna do? Everybody else is being fooled by the devil. All other religions are part of that deception. But, they get this from the Bible and NT. I'm not even a Christian and I don't believe the Baha'i interpretations of the Bible, so what are you going to do to convince them that they are misinterpreting the Bible? But, maybe a clue as to how to talk with them and find some common ground, is how you as a Baha'i presents yourself to other people that have different beliefs... but just not as extreme as FC's. I know you try, and it's finding the things you have in common. To say, "there is no devil"? To say, "Sorry, but Jesus is not God"? To say, "Baha'u'llah" is the manifestation for this age and is the Return of Christ"? To say, "Jesus' body is dead, buried and gone. He only figuratively resurrected from the dead"? Maybe try, "Hey, glad you and you son are back."

Oh yeah, you did do that. Hmmm, good luck. 'Cause you know he's just as strong and committed to his beliefs as you are to yours. Yeah, do the Baha'i thing, be a friend first. Then later, when he knows you and trusts you, and can appreciate your opinion, and why you believe what you believe.... then tell him how stupid his beliefs are.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh yeah, you did do that. Hmmm, good luck. 'Cause you know he's just as strong and committed to his beliefs as you are to yours. Yeah, do the Baha'i thing, be a friend first. Then later, when he knows you and trusts you, and can appreciate your opinion, and why you believe what you believe.... then tell him how stupid his beliefs are.

Maybe just acknowledge each others different beliefs (without criticising or dismissing) and leave it at that.

 

[Shad]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

When someone starts seeing manifestation of their "insert name here" it is no longer merely about religion but their mental state. Also it is time to back away slowly, nod and smile. When someone is that delusional there is no conversation to be had as their delusion is part of the religious motivation.

 

[siti]

You could try completely ignoring anything he might say and press on with whatever you wanted to tell him about how much more sensible your interpretation of the Bible is quite regardless of how clearly he demonstrates that what you are saying is not what the Bible says at all by showing you verse after verse that counters your point of view...that approach usually seems to work for many on RF. He probably still wouldn't believe you though - pesky fundamentalists - absolute sticklers for whatever their chosen prophets/scriptures say even if it contradicts all known evidence! Did someone mention irony?

 

[MJFlores]

But that would have to based on interpretation, unless one takes the position that only their own interpretation must be the correct one..

How many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where were he/they located, what did he/they say, and what exactly did the women do afterward and to whom?

To save ya time, no two gospels agree, which is actually a strength, not a weakness imo.

What is the Catholic's basis of faith?

Where do you think Catholics learn about Jesus?

As I have shown you the first example was knocked off.
If I have the luxury of time, I would knock off the next 100.
Thanks for the link - it was informative
It is like you gave me a bunch of thread balls which I have to straighten out.

 

[David T]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

"At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord".

Carl Jung said a mystic swims where the insane drown.

So I see the conversation above and know that it's normal person making such statements. For me there is an fine line between the mystic and the insane the mystic sees the line for want it is and breathes the insane forget to breathe.

The difference between normal and insanity is there is no line it's the same but on spectrum, one functions the other doesn't. I don't get fooled by functionalism. The way I deal with all of it regardless of religion is to tune out what they say, and tone in to who they are. I disregard belief non belief or agnosticism as being relevant. Here on RF because of the nature of writing I can sort the bad logic more easily.

 

[MJFlores]

Along with the warning about false prophets is the necessity of recognising true prophets. Some Christians believe His return will be accompanied by miraculous signs that literally fulfil scripture. The Pharisees made the same mistake when they rejected Jesus.

But that warning came from Jesus himself.
Not from somebody else.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe just acknowledge each others different beliefs (without criticising or dismissing) and leave it at that.

Well that don't work either. A Christian is trying to save you from going to hell. That Christian is taught that it is their duty to "share" with you the "good news"... that Jesus died to save you from your sins. Likewise, if Christ has returned and a Baha'i says nothing? Only problem is for those who don't believe the Christians or Baha'is or whomever. For them it is annoying, but once in a while one of those people "sees" the light and our glad someone "shared" their faith with them. But mostly, it's just annoying, because they always act as if they are right.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that warning came from Jesus himself.
Not from somebody else.

That is where a fundamentalist view clouds both statements.

There is a warning of false prophets. But then there is the guidance of how to recognise a true prophet. Thus we can conclude there will be true prophets.

How to determine if they are true or false is also given.

The warning is clear as to where we will find most false prophets. It will be those that call out in Christs name. Thus we should not make a mistake, it is possible that more true prophets have walked the earth since Christ. It may be a New Name we are to look for, if we are to be true to Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

it's just annoying, because they always act as if they are right.

That has to be good, the world would be a better place for those that act in faith and do good for all.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Well that don't work either. A Christian is trying to save you from going to hell. That Christian is taught that it is their duty to "share" with you the "good news"... that Jesus died to save you from your sins. Likewise, if Christ has returned and a Baha'i says nothing? Only problem is for those who don't believe the Christians or Baha'is or whomever. For them it is annoying, but once in a while one of those people "sees" the light and our glad someone "shared" their faith with them. But mostly, it's just annoying, because they always act as if they are right.

Ahh ... the irony. It's too much to bear. I need a beer ... or something.