Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

[ecco]

​

One randomly selected report.......
Experts who think blood transfusions could be harmful | Daily Mail Online

Randomly selected? Out of all the sources available, you "randomly selected" one of the phoniest tabloids around. What are the odds.
Google Search "englands daily mail"

Is Daily Mail a reliable news source?
One thing it's not: the Daily Mail. ... Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail(including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sourcesexist.Feb 9, 2017​

 

[ecco]

What hope are atheists giving the world? They seem to live in the moment, grabbing everything they can for themselves here and now, and leaving the mess for others to clean up.

My goodness. Would you care to back up that bit of vitriol with some facts? Please show how many senior executives of coal companies are atheists.
Please show how many senior executives of oil companies are atheists.
Please show how many senior executives of pharmaceutical companies are atheists.
Please show how many senior executives of financial companies are atheists.
Please show how many world leaders are atheists.

For example:

[Australia's Scott] Morrison was raised in the Presbyterian Church, which partly merged into the Uniting Church when he was a child. He later became a Pentecostal, and now attends the Horizon Church, which is affiliated with the Australian Christian Churches and the Assemblies of God.

 

[ecco]

Perhaps if you watched the video I linked,

I started to watch the video but I couldn't find who produced the video, or what their qualifications were. Since there was no information, there was no way to independently verify the qualifications of the creators.

 

[Deeje]

You've destroyed conversation world wide with that theory. I can only talk birds, photography and woodworking from now on. My visitors are gonna have a dull Xmas.

Atheists celebrating Christmas.....hmmmm, is there something a bit hypocritical about that?
No one said you can't converse on any subject you like, but there's a big difference between "knowing" something and "assuming" that something is true because of following popular opinion.

That makes us even. I'm disgusted by what I see from organised religions and their superstitions.

I am disgusted myself when I see people enslaved to superstitions created by their religious beliefs. Like when people line up to genuflect before a fence post because they see something like an image of Jesus or Mary on it....or paying homage to a weeping statue.....it's pathetic.

But being organised is not the problem because, the Bible indicates, and nature demonstrates, organization. It's the basis for the organization and the resulting practices that pose the problem. Mob mentality is a powerful thing.

No because I'm cured of non-Hodgkins lymphoma. 17 years cancer free.

Do you understand that people can survive cancer in spite of treatments, rather than because of them? If you can point to the majority of patients surviving cancer treatments, rather than just your own experience, you might have something of value to add to the subject....but the fact is, chemo fails in the majority of cases. Chemo makes sick people sicker....it's a terrible way to end your life. A dear family friend of ours trusted her doctors to treat her cancer with multiple rounds of chemo....the person who died was not recognisable as the person we knew.....she looked like someone out of Auschwitz, only sicker. As if the cancer wasn't bad enough, the treatment just increased the suffering a hundred fold....and it cost a small fortune....and "they did all they could". No they didn't. There were so many other things that can treat cancer successfully, but doctors are not allowed to even suggest any of them or they will lose their licence. They have only three options...chemo....radiation....and surgery. Cancer can be defeated by boosting our own immune system....it is the best cancer fighter and treats the body kindly, without added suffering. I know which treatment I would choose......successful or not.

I have no idea what hope atheists give the world, as far as I know they don't group together and plan things. If they do I haven't been invited.

I can see by their presence on sites like this that atheists do "group together" to push their own agenda.....it seems to me that they need to combat any suggestion that makes their own decision to lose God, a bad choice.....it must be rebuffed with religious fervour. The desperation is sometimes comical.....post after post of desperate defense......makes me wonder who it is that they are trying to convince?....us or themselves?

The world sure ain't perfect and I hate things like coastal development that is wiping out migratory birds but the world isn't all bad. I'd sooner be alive now then 200 years ago. I have hope we can learn from our mistakes and do better.

Are you confident that humans will stop the rot? What is their track record revealing to you? I have more faith in God than I could ever have in mankind, based on experience alone.

200 years ago, humans did not have the ability to destroy the planet.
There was no way to pollute the earth, bring animals to extinction by destroying their habitat, or wipe out whole populations by the use of nuclear weapons......are you sure that life 200 years ago was really so bad?

People today might be living longer, but are they living that longer life better....or are they decrepit and disabled confined to a miserable life in a nursing home? I have spent the last 20 years keeping my 94 year old mother out of one of those places. Most of them are also in it for the money, not for the care of residents.

You live a sad world you have made for yourself. You asked what hope atheists bring to the world. What hope do you bring? Sit around waiting to die for a promised paradise that you have no evidence even exists....

I live in a sad world...period. What world do you live in?
I didn't make it this way, and the godless have not made it a better place. Every institution that humans have put in place to give us a measure of peace and security has failed to secure any remedies for human suffering....in fact they have just invented new ways to cause it.

If humans spent as much money on saving people as they do on killing them, imagine what a world we could have?! There would be no poverty, no homelessness, no reason to use lack of money as an excuse not to help anyone in need.

Religion itself can be destructive as is evidenced with fanatical Islamic terrorism, but if everyone simply followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, it would remove all causes for conflict and give the world the peace it craves......but humans are too busy doing things "their" way and wondering why the world has 'gone to hell in a handbasket'!

I do truly feel sorry for you and wish there was a way I could help but it's obvious there is nothing I can say that would.

Funny, I feel the same way about people like you. One day you will see who created this earth, and how he will save it from those who ignore his rules.

 

[ecco]

Banked Blood Loses Ability To Deliver Oxygen To Tissues Almost Immediately
Summary:
Almost immediately after it is donated, human blood begins to lose a key gas that opens up blood vessels to facilitate the transfer of oxygen from red blood cells to oxygen-starved tissues. Thus, millions of patients are apparently receiving transfusions with blood that is impaired in its ability to deliver oxygen.

OK. You can copy and paste. Now tell us what your understanding of the main point of the article is.

 

[Deeje]

I just love how some take so many things out of context and present their subsequent indignation as 'evidence' that their zany religious proscriptions have merit.

Condescension.....a favourite of the atheist. How is the altitude up there?

So, one link was to the use of transfusions during knee transplants. The other was to a cautionary video about the over-use of transfusions.

I believe that the video highlighted that there was no other medical procedure that resulted in "morbidity" and "mortality" more than blood transfusions do. What do those words mean? And would you like a doctor to use those words in connection with a treatment he was offering you?

I also remember a figure of about 12% that were deemed to be "necessary" even though the doctors in the video did not say that blood was ever really necessary, not even in trauma cases.
Perhaps you need to watch the video with your selective hearing switched off.

A blood transfusion is, after all, a tissue transplant (What is the JW position on tissue/organ transplants?) - you understand that blood is a tissue, yes?

Yes we are aware of everything related to the issue of blood in Medicine. Perhaps you are unaware that we have a Hospital Liason Committee that fields medical enquiries from doctors all over the world who can access information when treating Witness patients. The members of this committee are experts in the field of bloodless medical techniques. Their advice has helped in the treatment and recovery of many non-Witness patients as well.

And as such, it is the introduction of foreign tissue. Of course there are potential complications, and like any medical procedure or medicine or treatment, there is a tendency to overuse.

It wasn't just the overuse that was highlighted though, was it.....? It was the "morbidity" and the" mortality" (adverse outcomes and death) that were the important things.....avoiding blood meant shorter recovery times....less complications....saving hospital resources etc...all good things from the medical perspective.

But precautionary statements about not transfusing blood willy-nilly is not the same thing as saying that they are evil and wicked and should never be done - there are morbidity and mortality rates associated with getting a tooth pulled. Let's proscribe that!

People are free to choose their own form of medical treatment or to refuse it. But when making decisions, they should be informed ones....right? Do you want the truth or someone to tickle your ears?

And no, your video does not indicate this. The only thing cited indicated that transfusions were "inappropriate" in more than half of cases. That is not the same as 'killing more than saving.' Nor did your link about knee transplants.

The dangers of blood transfusions are becoming better understood. This is a good thing because lives are not being put at risk for bad outcomes and death by relying on an outdated procedure. There are faster recovery times with less complications by avoiding a liquid tissue transplant....something that activates an extreme immune response. The body's resources are directed to fighting the invader, not towards making the patient well.

Oddly, in the cytoscan, the comparison was with volume expanders v. packed red cells (i.e., red cells with most of the plasma removed) post hemorrhage. Golly, what a surprise that replacing lost volume with packed red cells did not allow for dilation of peripheral blood vessels!

The oxygen delivery to the tissues was impeded by whole blood transfusion, but was facilitated by the use of saline. The cytoscan was proof that foreign blood doesn't work in the body of a recipient the way that doctors once imagined. Now they can actually see what goes on in the bloodstream. I'm sure it was a shock to them.

In the Second World War when blood supplies were scarce, they used sea water to save the lives of those who suffered blood loss in battle.
IMO it is no coincidence that our circulatory system is compatible with natural sea water.

Something seems very odd about that video...

Yes, it told the inconvenient truth that make doctors who don't keep up with advances in medicine, look like quacks.....and who keep on burying their mistakes.....after "doing all they could".

 

[John53]

Atheists celebrating Christmas.....hmmmm, is there something a bit hypocritical about that?

You wouldn't believe how amusing I found that coming from a JW lol The irony was almost too much. And who said anything about atheists celebrating xmas? I said my visitors would be having a dull xmas listening to my limited conversation. You've made a lot of assumptions.

No one said you can't converse on any subject you like, but there's a big difference between "knowing" something and "assuming" that something is true because of following popular opinion.

You might want to write that on a sticky and put it on your computer monitor.

I am disgusted myself when I see people enslaved to superstitions created by their religious beliefs. Like when people line up to genuflect before a fence post because they see something like an image of Jesus or Mary on it....or paying homage to a weeping statue.....it's pathetic.

Or they refuse to talk to their children because they no longer agree with their religious superstitions....

But being organised is not the problem because, the Bible indicates, and nature demonstrates, organization. It's the basis for the organization and the resulting practices that pose the problem. Mob mentality is a powerful thing.

I notice you cut and paste the middle section of that from somewhere because you go from the Australian English "organisation" to the American "organization". What was it you were saying about thinking for yourself?

Do you understand that people can survive cancer in spite of treatments, rather than because of them? If you can point to the majority of patients surviving cancer treatments, rather than just your own experience, you might have something of value to add to the subject....but the fact is, chemo fails in the majority of cases. Chemo makes sick people sicker....it's a terrible way to end your life. A dear family friend of ours trusted her doctors to treat her cancer with multiple rounds of chemo....the person who died was not recognisable as the person we knew.....she looked like someone out of Auschwitz, only sicker. As if the cancer wasn't bad enough, the treatment just increased the suffering a hundred fold....and it cost a small fortune....and "they did all they could". No they didn't. There were so many other things that can treat cancer successfully, but doctors are not allowed to even suggest any of them or they will lose their licence. They have only three options...chemo....radiation....and surgery. Cancer can be defeated by boosting our own immune system....it is the best cancer fighter and treats the body kindly, without added suffering. I know which treatment I would choose......successful or not.

Do you understand people die from untreated cancer and they would also be unrecognisable to the person you knew. You really need to start thinking outside your superstitious box.

I can see by their presence on sites like this that atheists do "group together" to push their own agenda.....it seems to me that they need to combat any suggestion that makes their own decision to lose God, a bad choice.....it must be rebuffed with religious fervour. The desperation is sometimes comical.....post after post of desperate defense......makes me wonder who it is that they are trying to convince?....us or themselves?

Could it possibly be that they happen to agree on a particular subject.... sheez

Are you confident that humans will stop the rot? What is their track record revealing to you? I have more faith in God than I could ever have in mankind, based on experience alone.

Then why isn't your God fixing the rot!!!!

200 years ago, humans did not have the ability to destroy the planet.
There was no way to pollute the earth, bring animals to extinction by destroying their habitat, or wipe out whole populations by the use of nuclear weapons......are you sure that life 200 years ago was really so bad?

Why on earth can you not read what I type? I did not say life 200 years ago was really bad. I said I would rather be living now than 200 years ago.

People today might be living longer, but are they living that longer life better....or are they decrepit and disabled confined to a miserable life in a nursing home? I have spent the last 20 years keeping my 94 year old mother out of one of those places. Most of them are also in it for the money, not for the care of residents.

My mother is also in her 90's, she lives at her house, she's making xmas lunch for me, my wife, sister, daughter and son in law this Saturday, goes to the shops etc. Mind you she doesn't break any land speed records.

I live in a sad world...period. What world do you live in?

I live in the world, some good, some great, some bad, some evil and all the in between.

I didn't make it this way, and the godless have not made it a better place. Every institution that humans have put in place to give us a measure of peace and security has failed to secure any remedies for human suffering....in fact they have just invented new ways to cause it.

Neither have the God fearing. What's your point?

If humans spent as much money on saving people as they do on killing them, imagine what a world we could have?! There would be no poverty, no homelessness, no reason to use lack of money as an excuse not to help anyone in need.

Sure... another massive fail on the part of your God.

Religion itself can be destructive as is evidenced with fanatical Islamic terrorism, but if everyone simply followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, it would remove all causes for conflict and give the world the peace it craves......but humans are too busy doing things "their" way and wondering why the world has 'gone to hell in a handbasket'!

Or the fanatical [insert any religion here]

Funny, I feel the same way about people like you. One day you will see who created this earth, and how he will save it from those who ignore his rules.

Of which you have zero evidence. Your threats mean nothing to me without evidence.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

​

Randomly selected? Out of all the sources available, you "randomly selected" one of the phoniest tabloids around. What are the odds.
Google Search "englands daily mail"

Is Daily Mail a reliable news source?
One thing it's not: the Daily Mail. ... Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail(including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sourcesexist.Feb 9, 2017​

And where is this from?
For someone concerned about the quality of references... why did you not post this source?

 

[John53]

Something seems very odd about that video...

It's a media release from a small Government dept that is meant to be used in conjunction with the web site. My guess is they are after extra funding and their publicity people made the video to get the attention of news entertainment. Certain people have latched onto the video and ignored the rest of the website.

 

[ecco]

Atheists celebrating Christmas.....hmmmm, is there something a bit hypocritical about that?

Not at all. The winter solstice was celebrated long before the Christians decided to assign a late December date to the birth of their saviour.

You also co-opted the spring solstice. This time to celebrate the re-birth of the same guy.

It just shows how unimaginative theists are.

 

[ecco]

ecco previously:

Randomly selected? Out of all the sources available, you "randomly selected" one of the phoniest tabloids around. What are the odds.
Google Search "englands daily mail"

Is Daily Mail a reliable news source?
One thing it's not: the Daily Mail. ... Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail(including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sourcesexist.Feb 9, 2017​

And where is this from?
For someone concerned about the quality of references... why did you not post this source?

Sorry, that should have been: Google Search "englands daily mail reliable"

To complement what I previously posted, I'll add...


https://www.quora.com/How-credible-is-the-Daily-Mail

Not really. It was initially established to "give the middle classes something to hate", and it's carried on with that basic philosophy. It likes to spread fear and worry, because that sells papers.​

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Daily-Mail-conservative-and-is-it-reliable

Is the Daily Mail conservative, and is it reliable?
Answer Wiki
Consensus is that The Daily Mail:

• is xenophobic, neo-fascist, misogynistic, anti-scientific and racist.
• Is unreliable to the point it can be used as a reverse fact check - if it says something happened, it probably didn’t.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-editorial-viewpoint-of-Englands-Daily-Mail-newspaper

The editorial viewpoint is "Right wing, fearmongering". It's target audience are those who are on the right of the political spectrum and want their fears and prejudices confirmed and aren't too worried about factual accuracy.​

Wikipedia bans Daily Mail as 'unreliable' source

Wikipedia bans Daily Mail as 'unreliable' source​

Online encyclopaedia editors rule out publisher as a reference citing ‘reputation for poor fact checking and sensationalism’​

http://www.humantruth.info/uk_newspapers_comparison.html

UK popular newspapers are infamous for their daft stories, political bias, poor fact-checking and skewed reporting, combined with a concentration on celebrities and entertainment-value news. By comparing all newspapers to common criteria, including academic judgements of their quality and the number of complaints raised against them, it is possible to score each one of them. ...​

• • The Best:
    4
    The Guardian,
    
• The Worst:
  7
  The Daily Mail,
  

Thanks for asking.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yeah, let's get the 'right perspective':
Scientists Seek to Update Evolution | Quanta Magazine

Scientists themselves can't even agree on the mechanisms behind macro evolution. So how should we toe the line? It might be the wrong line!

This article is already 2 years old. How's this New Synthesis coming?

 

[Jose Fly]

Scientists themselves can't even agree on the mechanisms behind macro evolution.

Evolutionary biologists are still working out all the mechanisms behind evolution, therefore...................?

So how should we toe the line? It might be the wrong line!

This article is already 2 years old. How's this New Synthesis coming?

Last I looked, physicists still haven't worked out the mechanism(s) behind gravity. What conclusions should we draw from that?

 

[Deeje]

You wouldn't believe how amusing I found that coming from a JW lol The irony was almost too much.

Why is it ironic? We won't touch Christmas with a barge pole. Its not a "Christian" celebration and never was.
Atheists celebrating the birth of Christ on the other hand is a bit hypocritical in my book. It is still a religious holiday....but for the wrong god.

And who said anything about atheists celebrating xmas? I said my visitors would be having a dull xmas listening to my limited conversation. You've made a lot of assumptions.

Atheists do celebrate Christmas...and you are apparently one of them. (as you mentioned because your Mum is cooking Christmas dinner for your family...no?)

You might want to write that on a sticky and put it on your computer monitor.

Do you have one as well?

Or they refuse to talk to their children because they no longer agree with their religious superstitions....

Where did you hear that? We do not refuse to talk to our children because they no longer agree with our religious beliefs. They may want you to believe that.
No one is born a JW. We choose, of our volition to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It involves biblical criteria which involves commitment to a certain moral standard of living.
One who has taken vows to dedicate their lives to God have entered into a binding agreement. You don't just join a 'club' and have the option to walk out the door because you have changed your mind. Those who take that step know well in advance what is expected of them. None of it is in any way unusual or unhealthy. It is just following the moral code of the Bible.

Should they reach a point where their thoughts have strayed into the world, their attitudes and conduct will reflect that. They will begin to chafe under the rules that they once agreed to follow. If they want to leave, then they are free to go....but their lifestyle will often become something that God disapproves of.

We are taught to disapprove of those activities ourselves....to hate what God hates. It does not mean that we hate our children, any more than God hates any humans....he hates what they do....so do we. So we save ourselves the heartache of watching our kids make the biggest mistake of their lives. It is unusual to find any defectors from our spiritual family who end up happy. The net is full of disgruntled ex-JW's who can't have their cake and eat it too. We shun those who shun God and his laws...related to us or not. (Matthew 10:34-37; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

I notice you cut and paste the middle section of that from somewhere because you go from the Australian English "organisation" to the American "organization". What was it you were saying about thinking for yourself?

LOL....I go from an iPad to a laptop depending on where I am....it is these that toggle from American spelling to Australian. I will often start a post on my iPad and graduate later to my laptop to finish it. No cut and paste, otherwise I would provide a link...that is the rules.It always pays to wait for the explanation....ya know.

Do you understand people die from untreated cancer and they would also be unrecognisable to the person you knew. You really need to start thinking outside your superstitious box.

Of course....I have sat with the dying and know full well how cancer works on the body.....but I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to avoid chemotherapy or radiation......both are devastating to the body.....surgery can be too.....with no guarantees that their life will be saved. Suffering is magnified by the barbaric methods used by 'modern' medicine.

Could it possibly be that they happen to agree on a particular subject.... sheez

Of course.....but you joined the club here even though you weren't invited. The internet bandwagon has more than its fair share of atheists....and it always amuses me that atheists always gravitate to Bible or religious discussion websites....to spread their joy...is it?

Then why isn't your God fixing the rot!!!!

Oh but he is....in his own time and in a way that will leave mankind in no doubt as to their need for his direction and guidance.
He is allowing humanity to be caught in the act of being themselves.....they are carving out their own future by their own choices...setting precedents for all time to come....its brilliant actually.

Why on earth can you not read what I type? I did not say life 200 years ago was really bad. I said I would rather be living now than 200 years ago.

And I gave you the reasons why I am not happy living 200 years hence. What is so special about today? Our brains are turning to mush and we have created monsters we can't control or destroy.....how clever are we?

My mother is also in her 90's, she lives at her house, she's making xmas lunch for me, my wife, sister, daughter and son in law this Saturday, goes to the shops etc. Mind you she doesn't break any land speed records.

Well, Merry Christmas then..... and good on your Mum for being so active. Mine is too.

I live in the world, some good, some great, some bad, some evil and all the in between.

We live in a world that, outside of our materialistic Australian lifestyle, is going to the dogs. Some nations have children who are abandoned in the streets because their parents cant feed or care for them. They are often picked up and used by sex traffickers and no one seems to be able to stem the flow. Poverty drives these situations. In Africa, AIDS is still claiming many lives because there is no money for healthy food or medicines and no morality to curb the spread of disease. In the last Ebola outbreak, religious tradition was making the proper disposal of bodies very difficult. Do you never think of life outside of your own country?

Neither have the God fearing. What's your point?

According to the Bible, this mess is created by disobedient humans and they will never solve the problems that their greed for wealth and power have generated. Only God can bring an end to this misery.....he has said he will act when the time is right, but he also said that it will be "like a thief in the night"....there will be no warning.

Sure... another massive fail on the part of your God.

The Creator does not have "fail" in his vocabulary. It is humans who fail at everything that they try with their independent spirit. God is just giving them enough rope....

Of which you have zero evidence. Your threats mean nothing to me without evidence.

Please don't confuse a threat with a warning.....God doesn't make threats.....he gives ultimatums. But there is always a warning before he acts......all are given an opportunity to change their mind. Its up to us whether we do something about it or not.

 

[Jose Fly]

We do not refuse to talk to our children because they no longer agree with our religious beliefs.

Really? But then.....

We shun those who shun God and his laws...related to us or not.

 

[John53]

Why is it ironic? We won't touch Christmas with a barge pole. Its not a "Christian" celebration and never was.

Exactly. Even funnier now lol

Atheists celebrating the birth of Christ on the other hand is a bit hypocritical in my book. It is still a religious holiday....but for the wrong god.

Atheists do celebrate Christmas...and you are apparently one of them. (as you mentioned because your Mum is cooking Christmas dinner for your family...no?)

Once again, try and read what I post, it requires no interpretation. I never said I or any other atheist was celebrating anything. I'm having xmas lunch at my Mum's on Saturday because it makes her happy and that's when everyone is free. The only thing on my mind will be how soon can I politely leave, I personally won't be celebrating anything. I don't speak for other atheists.

Do you have one as well?

Wasn't me making the ridiculous point.

Where did you hear that? We do not refuse to talk to our children because they no longer agree with our religious beliefs. They may want you to believe that.
No one is born a JW. We choose, of our volition to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It involves biblical criteria which involves commitment to a certain moral standard of living.
One who has taken vows to dedicate their lives to God have entered into a binding agreement. You don't just join a 'club' and have the option to walk out the door because you have changed your mind. Those who take that step know well in advance what is expected of them. None of it is in any way unusual or unhealthy. It is just following the moral code of the Bible.

Should they reach a point where their thoughts have strayed into the world, their attitudes and conduct will reflect that. They will begin to chafe under the rules that they once agreed to follow. If they want to leave, then they are free to go....but their lifestyle will often become something that God disapproves of.

We are taught to disapprove of those activities ourselves....to hate what God hates. It does not mean that we hate our children, any more than God hates any humans....he hates what they do....so do we. So we save ourselves the heartache of watching our kids make the biggest mistake of their lives. It is unusual to find any defectors from our spiritual family who end up happy. The net is full of disgruntled ex-JW's who can't have their cake and eat it too. We shun those who shun God and his laws...related to us or not. (Matthew 10:34-37; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

The contradiction almost blinded me.

Of course....I have sat with the dying and know full well how cancer works on the body.....but I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to avoid chemotherapy or radiation......both are devastating to the body.....surgery can be too.....with no guarantees that their life will be saved. Suffering is magnified by the barbaric methods used by 'modern' medicine.

Not mine or the numerous other cancer survivors. Your ill-informed attacks on the many good people in the various medical professions is offensive.

Of course.....but you joined the club here even though you weren't invited. The internet bandwagon has more than its fair share of atheists....and it always amuses me that atheists always gravitate to Bible or religious discussion websites....to spread their joy...is it?

Or maybe to discuss a topic that interests. It may shock you to know I discuss many topics in a variety of places that I'm personally not involved in.

Oh but he is....in his own time and in a way that will leave mankind in no doubt as to their need for his direction and guidance.
He is allowing humanity to be caught in the act of being themselves.....they are carving out their own future by their own choices...setting precedents for all time to come....its brilliant actually.

Isn't it a little sad that you have to make excuses for your God?

And I gave you the reasons why I am not happy living 200 years hence. What is so special about today? Our brains are turning to mush and we have created monsters we can't control or destroy.....how clever are we?

Try reading what I type <sigh>

Well, Merry Christmas then..... and good on your Mum for being so active. Mine is too.

I'm confused by what you said in the last post then.

We live in a world that, outside of our materialistic Australian lifestyle, is going to the dogs. Some nations have children who are abandoned in the streets because their parents cant feed or care for them. They are often picked up and used by sex traffickers and no one seems to be able to stem the flow. Poverty drives these situations. In Africa, AIDS is still claiming many lives because there is no money for healthy food or medicines and no morality to curb the spread of disease. In the last Ebola outbreak, religious tradition was making the proper disposal of bodies very difficult. Do you never think of life outside of your own country?

Like I said... good, great, bad, evil and everything in between.

According to the Bible, this mess is created by disobedient humans and they will never solve the problems that their greed for wealth and power have generated. Only God can bring an end to this misery.....he has said he will act when the time is right, but he also said that it will be "like a thief in the night"....there will be no warning.

According to the bible you should stone your lazy children...

The Creator does not have "fail" in his vocabulary. It is humans who fail at everything that they try with their independent spirit. God is just giving them enough rope....

Who would worship something so cruel.

Please don't confuse a threat with a warning.....God doesn't make threats.....he gives ultimatums. But there is always a warning before he acts......all are given an opportunity to change their mind. Its up to us whether we do something about it or not.

Got it... your ultimatums don't scare me.

I can't imagine how depressing your world is. You have my sympathy.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Ill-informed attack on the medical profession.

De rigueur for the creationists and fundamentalists.

There is no one that can determine that someone died from a lack of blood transfusion.

I can, as can many others.

what medicine has become...an endless prescribing of medications designed, not to make you well, but simply to address symptoms so that they can continue expensive "treatments" for the rest of your miserable life.

You slander an entire profession? Please stay out of doctors offices and hospitals. Stay home and pray the next time you're bleeding out, can't breathe, or experience crushing chest pain or a facial droop.

Are you aware that there are medications that do not treat symptoms? Apparently not. You should probably confine your comments to something you know something about.

What hope are atheists giving the world?

We offer authentic hope, like medicine - not the false hope given by religion.

 

[Deeje]

Not mine or the numerous other cancer survivors. Your ill-informed attacks on the many good people in the various medical professions is offensive.

I never said that there were not good people in the medical profession...did I? Please read what I wrote. I have issues with the system under which doctors must operate.....they are dictated to as to what options are to be offered. Some have defected from that system to practice real medicine. More power to them.

Isn't it a little sad that you have to make excuses for your God?

He needs no one to make excuses for him.....what needs excusing? Everything is taking place exactly as he said they would.....and that was 2,000 years ago.

I'm confused by what you said in the last post then.

I was being facetious.

Like I said... good, great, bad, evil and everything in between.

You see these things as balanced in every country then? Some countries have not much good going on at all......the reason for the refugee crisis perhaps?

According to the bible you should stone your lazy children...

I feel like it at times, but the law of the land takes a dim view. We are bound by the laws of the nation in which we live....just like everyone else.
We discipline our children in other ways. It is a means of correction, so 'time out' or loss of privileges is the usual implementation of discipline these days. I come from the era of a good wooden spoon myself.

Who would worship something so cruel.

What is cruel about expecting people to follow some simple rules to make co-existence with others peaceful and happy?
What are the things that blight human relationships today? All of them would disappear if everyone just followed these same rules. It is just common sense. It's why nations formulate laws.....so that those who breach them can be corrected and if not, punished.Is that cruel...or just?

I can't imagine how depressing your world is. You have my sympathy.

Please don't waste your sympathy on me.....and I won't waste mine on you. OK?
I obviously don't live in your bubble. There is great suffering in this world but you seem to want to ignore anything outside of your own backyard for some reason....

Enjoy what God has created and don't give an appreciative thought to any of it....its all just a colossal accident that just happened to produce the universe and all life on this Goldilocks planet.

If this life is all you expect...then your expectations will be fulfilled. I believe mine will be too.

 

[Deeje]

You slander an entire profession? Please stay out of doctors offices and hospitals. Stay home and pray the next time you're bleeding out, can't breathe, or experience crushing chest pain or a facial droop.

The medical profession is at the mercy of their masters. Do you know what constraints they operate under? If you stray outside of their very strict guidelines, they will strip you of your right to "practice medicine"....or should we say "practice their medicine"?.....i.e. prescribing their drugs and methods. GP's are trained in pharmacology......to me, that is not real medicine.

Why do you think people are leaving orthodox medicine in droves.....preferring to go to natural medical practitioners and doctors who have chosen to practice functional medicine? I have had way more success using natural therapies than I ever had using prescription drugs.

Orthodox practitioner have their place.....setting a bone, stitching a wound, providing temporary relief from pain, assisting with breathing difficulties and other symptoms, but for long term care or cures...they are not very helpful.

Are you aware that there are medications that do not treat symptoms? Apparently not. You should probably confine your comments to something you know something about.

Medications that do not treat symptoms? Please tell us what these might be?

Are you aware of how the orthodox medical system operates? Do you know about big pharma's patents and how they get their drugs passed by the FDA? They have ability to then charge like wounded bulls for these drugs that invariably have awful side effects? If the Hippocratic Oath says to first of all "do no harm" then all drug companies have forced doctors to break that oath.

How many people in the US have to sell their homes if illness forces them to give up work, losing their insurance coverage? I saw on a documentary one night, an older couple who both ended up with different cancers. They had no way to pay for their treatment because of employment loss, so they sold their house to pay for their treatments and moved in with their children. It was hardly an ideal situation for any of them....but what kind of greed drives such a drastic option for people who are sick and dying? Its not like the big pharmaceutical companies can't afford to lose a bit of profit for the sake of humanity.
But none of these expensive treatments have any guarantees. What a waste of human life and help that could have been passed onto the next generation. We all want to leave something for our children after a lifetime of paying off a mortgage. But these options leave nothing for anyone except lining the pockets of those who are already filthy rich off other people's misery.

We are not quite that bad in Australia but I see the medical profession increasing their rates and Medical rebate system not matching the payment. The gap now is getting wider and wider. Soon we will have adopted the American system where its all about the money, not the patient. Sickness is big business and like all businesses, its all about the money.

We offer authentic hope, like medicine - not the false hope given by religion.

Yep, just like the medicine offered by the orthodox medical system......superficial temporary relief....until it wears off and the pain comes back.
What you have IMO is fake, because there is no hope beyond this pathetic excuse for a life.

If believers go to their grave with the hope of something better to come....why do atheists want to take that away from them? Its not like you have something better to offer, now is it?

If this life has been nothing but a disappointment in many ways....how does anyone go to the end of their life with any measure of satisfaction, crippled by disability or cut down early by disease.....we see mental health issues crippling so many young people, yet what do they have to offer them? They will probably never get well and battle through this existence for as long as they survive.....but for what?

Please tell me what hope atheism can give anyone? God at least offers people another chance to get it right....and he asks so little in return.

Not everyone thinks the way you do.....and I know not everyone thinks the way I do...but we all have choices, and we will choose based on what we believe.

 

[John53]

I never said that there were not good people in the medical profession...did I? Please read what I wrote. I have issues with the system under which doctors must operate.....they are dictated to as to what options are to be offered. Some have defected from that system to practice real medicine. More power to them.

Real medicine that just happens to agree with your religious superstitions?

He needs no one to make excuses for him.....what needs excusing? Everything is taking place exactly as he said they would.....and that was 2,000 years ago.

Your Gods actions obviously need excusing otherwise you wouldn't have done it.

I was being facetious.

About rotting in a home or quite mobile?

You see these things as balanced in every country then? Some countries have not much good going on at all......the reason for the refugee crisis perhaps?

It's getting kinda silly that I have to keep typing the same thing over and over. Quick tip, I'm a simple bloke, I say what I mean. No need to add to or interpret. On occasion there may be sarcasm but it will be obvious.

I feel like it at times, but the law of the land takes a dim view. We are bound by the laws of the nation in which we live....just like everyone else.

That's not true. Voting in Australia. Conscription in Australia and the U.S. Knocking on doors in Russia. I'm sure there's other examples of laws being broken.

What is cruel about expecting people to follow some simple rules to make co-existence with others peaceful and happy?

Not what I was talking about, it's his complete absence.

What are the things that blight human relationships today? All of them would disappear if everyone just followed these same rules. It is just common sense. It's why nations formulate laws.....so that those who breach them can be corrected and if not, punished.Is that cruel...or just?

Like stoning homosexuals and animal sacrifice?

Please don't waste your sympathy on me.....and I won't waste mine on you. OK?

I can't help it, I have a caring nature.

I obviously don't live in your bubble. There is great suffering in this world but you seem to want to ignore anything outside of your own backyard for some reason....

You seem to want to make things up about me to suit your agenda and ignore what I actually type.

Enjoy what God has created and don't give an appreciative thought to any of it....its all just a colossal accident that just happened to produce the universe and all life on this Goldilocks planet.

Not sure if accident is the right word but I can't think of a better one. Is there a word for "it happened"?

If this life is all you expect...then your expectations will be fulfilled. I believe mine will be too.

You are free to be as miserable as you wish but I won't be able to stop thinking it can't be good and hoping for something better for you.