Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

[nPeace]

I will look up to discover how many JWs have died in the last five years for lack of blood transfusions, but I'#ll be surprised to find many, if any.

In the UK blood transfusions are not absolutely safe, Kelly.
Nor are inaccurate prescription medications which are reckoned to kill thousands each year.

But just sticking to blood transfusions specialists here reckon that up until now 20% of all blood transfusions have been unnecessary and even with blood screening the % of lung-damage cases is too high.

I don't know anything about it but I dio read the news reports, is all.

One randomly selected report.......
Experts who think blood transfusions could be harmful | Daily Mail Online
Experts who think blood transfusions could be HARMFUL: More are being given than ever. But with potentially deadly side-effects, is it now time to limit their use?
Like antibiotics and X-rays blood transfusions were scientific break throughs
There are fears what some experts call doctors' ‘love of blood’ has gone too far
Concerns over the safety of blood from strangers were highlighted recently
But now, with around two million transfusions a year performed on the NHS, there are fears that what some experts call doctors’ ‘love of blood’ has gone too far, potentially endangering patients with transfusions that are unnecessary — an estimated one in five cases.

There is no one that can determine that someone died from a lack of blood transfusion. You can verify that by listening to expert surgeons.
Otherwise you will only find biased opinionated doctors and journalists speaking from opinion rather than fact.
For one to prove that a person died from a lack of blood transfusion, they would have to show that everyone who refused a blood transfusion died.

Unfortunately I can't point you to the exact video since I seem to have problems with my connection, but watching both won't hurt, a bit.
What surgeons say

 

[nPeace]

Because it is my opinion. I know that the JWs teach it wrong and I have never heard anyone say anything different. Maybe you can tell me what you believe it means and then I can affirm or apologize. What do you think?

Well if you know JWs teach it wrong, just say, because you said you know
that I do not know what no part of the World mean. So please, just go ahead and explain why we don't know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no one that can determine that someone died from a lack of blood transfusion. You can verify that by listening to expert surgeons.
Otherwise you will only find biased opinionated doctors and journalists speaking from opinion rather than fact.
For one to prove that a person died from a lack of blood transfusion, they would have to show that everyone who refused a blood transfusion died.

Unfortunately I can't point you to the exact video since I seem to have problems with my connection, but watching both won't hurt, a bit.
What surgeons say

using terribly biased sources only tells us that you are making claims that do not agree with reality.

 

[John53]

You seem to think that JW's can't think for themselves.....we do our own research and the information, carefully examined from both sides of this issue, makes it clear that there has been a decided shift involving those in the medical profession who are honest enough to turn the tide on a multi-million dollar industry, more concerned with their bottom line than with patient safety. They are sounding the warning....but you seem to want to disbelieve them......is it because disbelieving anything outside your own ideas is habitual?

How convenient that the honest medical practitioners are the ones who you think agree with your religious superstitions. All the rest are greedy and dishonest. That's wrong on so many levels.

 

[oldbadger]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach that no blood transfusion is ever right. None. Not even the ones having been done before modern medicine to save a life from severe blood loss. They say that Jehovah says, "No!"

Yep.
That's what they believe.
OK, so this thread is not about putting the JW stand on evolution in perspective, it's just about putting JWs on the stand for their regular trashing. I got that.

In a World where masses of babies are born as drug addicts, where babies get killed by their parent's dogs, etc etc..... I have not partyicularly strong opinions about folks who won't accept blood transfusions, Savage, and if you want to remind me that JW children do not get transfusions either, please will you show a short list, of the most recent JW child deaths due to transfusion refusal, say about ten? With the years of the incidents? That would be hrelpful.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So what? Is being unlikely champions of religious freedom suppose to change any of the facts I presented?

.

Yes. We’re not as illiterate as you’d like to think.

And using ‘JWfacts’ website to get accurate info:...could you find a more biased source? (that’s like asking an ex-spouse after a bitter divorce.)

 

[oldbadger]

There is no one that can determine that someone died from a lack of blood transfusion. You can verify that by listening to expert surgeons.

I expect that there are hundreds of people qualified to make such decisions where I live, 'nPeace. They are called Pathologists. They are very very learned people.
Why are you telling me stuff like this?

Otherwise you will only find biased opinionated doctors and journalists speaking from opinion rather than fact.

You're losing debating points here, 'nPeace, because to say that only biased people find out certain things is silly. And Journalists don't make decisions about such things. It's true that masses of folks follow their agendas, but I'm not interested in anybody's agendas at all.

For one to prove that a person died from a lack of blood transfusion, they would have to show that everyone who refused a blood transfusion died.

You are certainly not a Pathologist, 'nPeace, I figured that when reading your first sentence.
I personally do not judge JWs for their lifestyles or on their beliefs, so you need to try and tell other folks about what can or cannot be proved.

Unfortunately I can't point you to the exact video since I seem to have problems with my connection, but watching both won't hurt, a bit.
What surgeons say

Surgeons don't decide upon the reasons for a death........ Pathologists report to Coroners where there is any uncertainty about a death.

This was supposed to be a thread about the JW stand on evolution, 'nPeace, and so I'm not much interested in the mention of transfusions here.
But I have to suggest that you would be better off not trying to prove that 'nobody ever died for lack of blood' ....

 

[Deeje]

I do see and you don't like I see lol It's kind of pathetic that you think your modern life in Australia can be compared with the life of someone in Roman occupied Middle East.

You missed the point, but perhaps that's because your own mindset is not open to consider things from the other person's perspective?
Jesus said his disciples would experience the same kind of treatment that he did...unfair criticism and persecution for being 'different' and exposing religious error. That applies no matter what geographical location or time period we occupy. History attests to the truthfulness of his words. (John 15:18-21)

No but I will point out hypocrisy.

And so will I. So I am wondering how an atheist gets to be an expert commentator on anyone's religion?

Ill-informed attack on the medical profession.

The more I see of modern medicine, the more I see the disgusting practice of pharmacology. This is what medicine has become...an endless prescribing of medications designed, not to make you well, but simply to address symptoms so that they can continue expensive "treatments" for the rest of your miserable life. The doctors therefore have an endless supply of patients; they and the drug companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

Do you never wonder why we never see anything cured? They promise that a certain drug will be available to the public in 10 years because its "an amazing breakthrough"......yet the 10 years rolls around and we never hear about it again. These are just carrots dangled to make people think that the drug companies actually care about curing anyone. Thank goodness that many doctors are defecting from this orthodox money-making treadmill to practice functional medicine....one that actually gets to the cause of a medical problem rather than just fixing a few symptoms and causing side effects that are often worse than the complaint....sit in any pharmacy and see the regular customers (usually elderly ones) roll up to the cash register with their baskets of prescription drugs.......time to wake up.

"Ill-informed" is the crux of this and many other issues. In case you have been hiding under a rock, the lid is being lifted on so many of the institutions that humans have been blindly putting their faith in for decades. Corruption in the Banks, Insurance companies, Medicine and other trusted institutions are proving that our faith has been sadly misplaced.

Greed drives this world in ways that many cannot even imagine. Politics, religion, commercialism, medicine, marriage, parenthood.....many of these important areas of life are now disintegrating and the planet is heaving under the corruption, pollution, suffering and injustice that has resulted. Greed for wealth and power have never been more evident. No one cares about anyone but themselves and their materialism.

What hope are atheists giving the world? They seem to live in the moment, grabbing everything they can for themselves here and now, and leaving the mess for others to clean up. The world that our children are inheriting is trashed......do you really think that today's generation is going to do better? The self-centered, useless, privileged 'snowflakes' that parents are aiding and abetting because they don't know how not to. Does that inspire you with confidence?

They also ask what operations you have had. They also ask your religion. They ask pages of questions. So what...

Do you know why they ask if you have EVER had a blood transfusion? They don't just ask if you've had one recently, but "ever".....so that includes one you may have had decades ago.....sometimes you can get more than you bargain for in a transfusion....or chances are that if you've had an adverse reaction in the past, you are likely to have one again, so they will not give you blood unless they want to risk wasting precious funds that those who avoid transfusions don't incur.

Its always about the money....and where there is money...there is corruption....humans can't seem to help themselves.

 

[John53]

You missed the point, but perhaps that's because your own mindset is not open to consider things from the other person's perspective?
Jesus said his disciples would experience the same kind of treatment that he did...unfair criticism and persecution for being 'different' and exposing religious error. That applies no matter what geographical location or time period we occupy. History attests to the truthfulness of his words. (John 15:18-21)

I know what you were getting at and there can be no comparison no matter how you word it.

And so will I. So I am wondering how an atheist gets to be an expert commentator on anyone's religion?

You've destroyed conversation world wide with that theory. I can only talk birds, photography and woodworking from now on. My visitors are gonna have a dull Xmas.

The more I see of modern medicine, the more I see the disgusting practice of pharmacology. This is what medicine has become...an endless prescribing of medications designed, not to make you well, but simply to address symptoms so that they can continue expensive "treatments" for the rest of your miserable life. The doctors therefore have an endless supply of patients; they and the drug companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

That makes us even. I'm disgusted by what I see from organised religions and their superstitions.

Do you never wonder why we never see anything cured? They promise that a certain drug will be available to the public in 10 years because its "an amazing breakthrough"......yet the 10 years rolls around and we never hear about it again. These are just carrots dangled to make people think that the drug companies actually care about curing anyone. Thank goodness that many doctors are defecting from this orthodox money-making treadmill to practice functional medicine....one that actually gets to the cause of a medical problem rather than just fixing a few symptoms and causing side effects that are often worse than the complaint....sit in any pharmacy and see the regular customers (usually elderly ones) roll up to the cash register with their baskets of prescription drugs.......time to wake up.

No because I'm cured of non-Hodgkins lymphoma. 17 years cancer free.

"Ill-informed" is the crux of this and many other issues. In case you have been hiding under a rock, the lid is being lifted on so many of the institutions that humans have been blindly putting their faith in for decades. Corruption in the Banks, Insurance companies, Medicine and other trusted institutions are proving that our faith has been sadly misplaced.

There's good and bad in everything, every group of people and everyone.

Greed drives this world in ways that many cannot even imagine. Politics, religion, commercialism, medicine, marriage, parenthood.....many of these important areas of life are now disintegrating and the planet is heaving under the corruption, pollution, suffering and injustice that has resulted. Greed for wealth and power have never been more evident. No one cares about anyone but themselves and their materialism.

No idea of your point or relevance but I feel sorry for you and the sad world you perceive.

What hope are atheists giving the world? They seem to live in the moment, grabbing everything they can for themselves here and now, and leaving the mess for others to clean up. The world that our children are inheriting is trashed......do you really think that today's generation is going to do better? The self-centered, useless, privileged 'snowflakes' that parents are aiding and abetting because they don't know how not to. Does that inspire you with confidence?

I have no idea what hope atheists give the world, as far as I know they don't group together and plan things. If they do I haven't been invited. The world sure ain't perfect and I hate things like coastal development that is wiping out migratory birds but the world isn't all bad. I'd sooner be alive now then 200 years ago. I have hope we can learn from our mistakes and do better.

Do you know why they ask if you have EVER had a blood transfusion? They don't just ask if you've had one recently, but "ever".....so that includes one you may have had decades ago.....sometimes you can get more than you bargain for in a transfusion....or chances are that if you've had an adverse reaction in the past, you are likely to have one again, so they will not give you blood unless they want to risk wasting precious funds that those who avoid transfusions don't incur.

The same reason they ask if you have any allergies or if you have had any operations etc etc. The more info they have the better they can treat you.

Its always about the money....and where there is money...there is corruption....humans can't seem to help themselves.

You live a sad world you have made for yourself. You asked what hope atheists bring to the world. What hope do you bring? Sit around waiting to die for a promised paradise that you have no evidence even exists....

I do truly feel sorry for you and wish there was a way I could help but it's obvious there is nothing I can say that would.

 

[savagewind]

Yep.
That's what they believe.
OK, so this thread is not about putting the JW stand on evolution in perspective, it's just about putting JWs on the stand for their regular trashing. I got that.

In a World where masses of babies are born as drug addicts, where babies get killed by their parent's dogs, etc etc..... I have not partyicularly strong opinions about folks who won't accept blood transfusions, Savage, and if you want to remind me that JW children do not get transfusions either, please will you show a short list, of the most recent JW child deaths due to transfusion refusal, say about ten? With the years of the incidents? That would be hrelpful.

I just stated a fact. And, there is a magazine published by the Jehovah's Witnesses that gives a list of some brave children who died peasing Jehovah by not having blood.

 

[savagewind]

Well if you know JWs teach it wrong, just say, because you said you know
that I do not know what no part of the World mean. So please, just go ahead and explain why we don't know.

I told you. I know what it means and it isn't the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. I have told this group things and I have been ridiculed for it. So, ask Jehovah what it means! Psalms 146:3

 

[Skwim]

Yes. We’re not as illiterate as you’d like to think.

I don't particularly like to think anyone is illiterate, but if a group sits at or near he bottom of the educational level and it has an inability/refusal to understand science, believe there's a positive correlation.

And using ‘JWfacts’ website to get accurate info:...could you find a more biased source? (that’s like asking an ex-spouse after a bitter divorce.)

Actually, I couldn't find any website put out by wholesome JWs with such information. Where should I have gone?

.

 

[savagewind]

Well if you know JWs teach it wrong, just say, because you said you know
that I do not know what no part of the World mean. So please, just go ahead and explain why we don't know.

The JWs are taught that to be no part of the World means that you are to obey the men about what not to do. So, they make it about intelligence which means the world. But, I think you know that Christians are to obey The Spirit. Am I right? To be no part of the World means that you will not ________, not only that you don't.

Can you see the difference between do not and will not? What does it mean? "There was no lie found in their mouths". Revelation 14:5 IN! their mouths. Do you see it say, "from their mouths"?

Adam pictures the world. Correct? What did Adam do? What he did is the World.

Adam promoted a lie. The promotion of lies means being in the World. So, a person can be perfect respecting what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses says he shouldn't do so that he isn't a part of the world but still be a part of the World.

I know YOU don't understand. It is OK.

The governing body to my knowledge has never taught that it is alright to say, "I don't know". But they make up stuff to fill in the 'we don't know'. That is being part of the World.

 

[tas8831]

Well if you know JWs teach it wrong, just say, because you said you know
that I do not know what no part of the World mean. So please, just go ahead and explain why we don't know.

How about YOU explain it.

And not with videos to JW propaganda, YOU explain it.

 

[nPeace]

Yep.
That's what they believe.
OK, so this thread is not about putting the JW stand on evolution in perspective, it's just about putting JWs on the stand for their regular trashing. I got that.

In a World where masses of babies are born as drug addicts, where babies get killed by their parent's dogs, etc etc..... I have not partyicularly strong opinions about folks who won't accept blood transfusions, Savage, and if you want to remind me that JW children do not get transfusions either, please will you show a short list, of the most recent JW child deaths due to transfusion refusal, say about ten? With the years of the incidents? That would be hrelpful.

In one of the videos I linked children just months old have had surgery without blood transfusion,
This situation reminds me of Ignaz Semmelweis'.
Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings, and some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and mocked him for it. In 1865, Semmelweis suffered a nervous breakdown and was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 of pyaemia, after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteurconfirmed the germ theory and Joseph Lister, acting on the French microbiologist's research, practiced and operated, using hygienic methods, with great success.

In this situation, although there is clearly demonstrated evidence, it makes absolutely no impression on minds cemented in their world-view.

 

[tas8831]

I didn't say, thank me.
Pity you guys are always assuming what people did, or did not do; know, or do not know.
Currently killed the cat, so don't stay curious. Recognize something for what it is.

Weird that you totally ignored this - in YOUR OWN LINK:


Pity you did not read down a bit further in your wiki link to see this:

"Scientific evidence consists of observations and experimental results that serve to support, refute, or modify a scientific hypothesis or theory, when collected and interpreted in accordance with the scientific method."

and:

"In scientific research evidence is accumulated through observations of phenomena that occur in the natural world, or which are created as experiments in a laboratory or other controlled conditions. Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis.

The burden of proof is on the person making a contentious claim. Within science, this translates to the burden resting on presenters of a paper, in which the presenters argue for their specific findings. This paper is placed before a panel of judges where the presenter must defend the thesis against all challenges.

When evidence is contradictory to predicted expectations, the evidence and the ways of making it are often closely scrutinized (see experimenter's regress) and only at the end of this process is the hypothesis rejected: this can be referred to as 'refutation of the hypothesis'. The rules for evidence used by science are collected systematically in an attempt to avoid the bias inherent to anecdotal evidence."

Curious as to why you thought I did not know what evidence it.


Antics like this are why I know you are not at all serious.

 

[tas8831]

In one of the videos I linked children just months old have had surgery without blood transfusion,...

A JW video... You know that all surgeries do not require blood transfusions, right? I had my knee done a while ago - no blood transfusion.

Of course, the JW videos are just human interpretations of evidence, and thus can be dismissed.

In this situation, although there is clearly demonstrated evidence, it makes absolutely no impression on minds cemented in their world-view.

Ironic.

 

[tas8831]

I wouldn't mind hearing your take on it, sure. Do you accept that Mt. Vesuvius erupted in 79 A.D.? If yes, what direct evidence do you think exists for that event?

There is none.

Then do you accept that Vesuvius erupted in 79 A.D.? Yes or no. Simple question.

 

[tas8831]

Isn't that contradicting... for you, I mean?

JWs refuse blood transfusions... I link to a case of such refusals being linked to 2 deaths... How again does that contradict MY position?

 

[nPeace]

I expect that there are hundreds of people qualified to make such decisions where I live, 'nPeace. They are called Pathologists. They are very very learned people.
Why are you telling me stuff like this?


You're losing debating points here, 'nPeace, because to say that only biased people find out certain things is silly. And Journalists don't make decisions about such things. It's true that masses of folks follow their agendas, but I'm not interested in anybody's agendas at all.


You are certainly not a Pathologist, 'nPeace, I figured that when reading your first sentence.
I personally do not judge JWs for their lifestyles or on their beliefs, so you need to try and tell other folks about what can or cannot be proved.


Surgeons don't decide upon the reasons for a death........ Pathologists report to Coroners where there is any uncertainty about a death.

This was supposed to be a thread about the JW stand on evolution, 'nPeace, and so I'm not much interested in the mention of transfusions here.
But I have to suggest that you would be better off not trying to prove that 'nobody ever died for lack of blood' ....

I'm sorry to sound as though I am some expert, as I am not, but I was speaking from what I believed to be the case.

How though can a Pathologists determine that a person died from a lack of blood transfusion? Imo, they can only determine that the person died from excess bleeding, but that does not mean the person died from a lack of blood transfusion.

For example, say a person is stabbed multiple times and rushed to the hospital, when, or if they die, due to delay in administering life saving methods - which can be a number of things, including procedures without blood transfusions, what was the cause of death?
It can be a number of things, but how can it be lack of blood transfusions.