Feminism is not egalitarianism

[oldbadger]

Whether you refer to yourself or me, I like it!

Never! Neither!
What? You?

No no...... I was refering to opinions!

 

[oldbadger]

Equal rights on paper =/= equal rights in practice.Not until men start getting pregnant.

That's right, I reckon.
If a couple is very close then a female partner might want to make a joint decision, but it's absolutely her choice whether she would include her partner in any such decision.

Otherwise she's some kind of a slave............

 

[columbus]

Maybe try avoiding the strawman version of feminism when discussing such thin gs with your girlfriend if you wish her to remain as such

This cartoon pretty well explains why I am not a feminist. Frames 5 and 6 sum it up.
What Joanie describes in 6 is not feminism. That's egalitarianism. You could substitute lot's of things for women and men and it would still be egalitarianism. Tall and short. Black and white. Equal rights and opportunities for all is egalitarianism, not feminism or racism or any other sort of discrimination.
But in frame 5, Sam describes feminism as the belief that women are superior. That happens a lot, but it isn't the defining characteristic of feminism. Feminism is when people think that gender equality is all well and good, but sometimes women deserve more than that.

Because history, because biology, because whatever, oftentimes equality isn't enough and feminists won't settle for that. From reproduction freedom( which men are not allowed), to affirmative action, to #MeToo (which only targets male douchebags, not the female ones who use sex to get what they want), well the list is pretty long of things that women deserve when equality just isn't enough.

So No, feminism is not what Sam described in frame 5. But it isn't what Joanie described in frame 6, either. If that were feminism then I would be one, but I am not.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

It's on page 2 just beneath the post you responded to.

Copied here:

Thanks for the copy..... appreciated.

Radical feminists see gender relations as the most important factor in patriarchy and it's reinforcement. The view that male privilege and raw sexism in society is what makes patriarchy to continue to exist. Generally speaking women's sex roles and reproductive capabilities are some of the the most significant factors in women's oppression (to radical feminists). Generally speaking, this is why most radical feminists are gender critical (trans-exclusive).

Oh dear.......... let's start there. The Oxford dictionary places 'radical' right next to 'extremist' alongside 'fundamental', and so for a start Rad-Fems are fanatics which doesn't help because all fanatics lose sight of the real objectives.
Secondly, the description (so far) shows clearly that these quasi-egalitarians are so involved with their perceptions of how intellectually and class superior that they are that they immediately bust Equality Ethics.
As soon as one equality group overlooks another separate group it's busted.
So far the Thread Title is shown to be correct.

They generally consider class, but do not consider it of primary concern in relating to patriarchy like Marxist feminists or other varieties of socialist feminists do and they do not consider legal equality as the primary factor of abolishing patriarchy like Liberal feminists tend to.

Of course they consider class, they think they're more special than Walmart Girls.
Busted.......
And they wanty to separate away from other women who support Gender Equality because they're filled up with other politics.

If we started to refer to any feminists as radical and use the term as synonymous with extreme, we would lose the usefulness of the term and it would change to be the same as other sensationalist political terms.

That's a pity because the fools selected a title which means the same.
Pseudo intellectual barometer on 10/10!

To some extent anti-feminists have already done this. The vast majority of people in political discourse seem to have zero comprehensive understanding of what Fascism and Communism are and the terms are thrown around as slander all the time.

Because anti-feminists had already 'done it', this group should have avoided the title like it was objective-death.
FGS, Women are women throughout all of a nation, despite differing cultures, politics, work, education etc, and as soon as a group of fools separates from the main body it shows that it has no interest in Gender Equality and Unity. Busted.

As a result, the terms are almost completely useless unless one identifies with one of said terms. Let's try to avoid doing that with different ideological divisions within feminism.

Ideological divisions within feminism............... Oh dear, ... In the UK we have attemped to bring Gender Identity, Equality, Security, Safety and Protection under one umbrella as a section together with other 'protected groups' such as race, colour, age, ability, marital status, nationality, Sexual orientation, etc and it can thrive under the EGALITARIAN Legislation.

As soon as the quasi-feminists start mixing up the tenets with complex other identities and extremisms they lose the basic Egalitarian Tenets, just as shown above.

Radical Feminists seem like extreme and nothing like true Gender Equality women.

 

[Sha'irullah]

When I think of feminism I think of my hero Phyllis Schlafly, an amazing and intelligent woman. I primarily think of what was the purpose of feminism and why it even exist and why it is such a western phenomena while the rest of the world just goes by without thinking of it. It baffles me how we concern ourselves with these things.

I am definitely not an egalitarian in any sense of the word and I have strong views about genders, society and humanity as a biological species. I do not believe feminism is egalitarianism but at the same time it does not bother me that much as I am neither. I do not see the world in terms of equality or the rights of people.

I believe we have an innate desire for the world to provide for us and this is why secular morals developed in opposition toward religious ones. The need to find safety when one's head hits the dirt is something egalitarianism teaches of which is why I cannot fathom it as a serious outlook on life.

My girlfriend strongly opposes feminism she told me years ago she wishes to be my housewife even if I don't want children . Our relationship is definitely not equal in any sense of the word and it is very patriarchal, just the way she likes it.

 

[columbus]

I am definitely not an egalitarian in any sense of the word and I have strong views about genders, society and humanity as a biological species.

This doesn't match:

My girlfriend strongly opposes feminism she told me years ago she wishes to be my housewife even if I don't want children .

Our relationship is definitely not equal in any sense of the word and it is very patriarchal, just the way she likes it.

If you and your opposite sex partner agree on how to make your relationship work, in a long term way, then that looks like egalitarianism to me. Pragmatic egalitarianism is when everyone gets input into the decisions, and then everyone abides by the decisions. If you both want the more traditional gender roles then y'all are doing things the egalitarian way.
Patriarchy would be if you tried to make her do something against her wishes. But you are not.
Tom

 

[columbus]

You speak of feminism as though it is a monolith and if feminists unilaterally supports the things you mentioned.
It isn't and Feminists don't.

That's a weak strawman.
I didn't say that feminism is a monolith.
Quite the opposite, feminism seems to be anything a self described feminist asserts. As long as women get equality when they want it, and special rights when equality isn't what women want.

Which is, again, not what Joanie described in frame 6. That was egalitarianism, not feminism. They are not the same thing.
Tom

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

This cartoon pretty well explains why I am not a feminist. Frames 5 and 6 sum it up.
What Joanie describes in 6 is not feminism. That's egalitarianism. You could substitute lot's of things for women and men and it would still be egalitarianism. Tall and short. Black and white. Equal rights and opportunities for all is egalitarianism, not feminism or racism or any other sort of discrimination.
But in frame 5, Sam describes feminism as the belief that women are superior. That happens a lot, but it isn't the defining characteristic of feminism. Feminism is when people think that gender equality is all well and good, but sometimes women deserve more than that.

Because history, because biology, because whatever, oftentimes equality isn't enough and feminists won't settle for that. From reproduction freedom( which men are not allowed), to affirmative action, to #MeToo (which only targets male douchebags, not the female ones who use sex to get what they want), well the list is pretty long of things that women deserve when equality just isn't enough.

So No, feminism is not what Sam described in frame 5. But it isn't what Joanie described in frame 6, either. If that were feminism then I would be one, but I am not.
Tom

*sigh*

And Kudos on knowing Joanie , though as we're in BD's house, it'll be Boopsie. BD sure is hard to pick without a helmet, though, so easy mistake.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Nonsense. Men have a responsibility to raise this child, whether they wanted it or not, plus they have to make child support payments.

Women already have equal rights in practice as well.

I'll see your evidence free handwave and raise you domestic violence rates and employment rates.

 

[Akivah]

Abortion is an issue which affects men. That doesn't make it a men's issue.

This is a difference without a difference. Abortion is definitely a men's issue as well as a women's issue.

 

[Akivah]

I'll see your evidence free handwave and raise you domestic violence rates and employment rates.

Both sexes have issues. Men have a higher death rate and die earlier than women. So? We are still equal under law in the USA.

 

[metis]

Men have a higher death rate and die earlier than women.

We die earlier than our wives because we want to.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a difference without a difference. Abortion is definitely a men's issue as well as a women's issue.

Some misguided feminists tell us that abortion isn't a men's issue.
But if it affects us as men, then it certainly is.

Regarding abortion, we might or might not.....
- Have an offspring in our lives.
- Have to pay for an offspring, even if we're not allowed any familial relationship with it.
- Be the child terminated (for those who see the fetus as a human being with attendant rights).

Before anyone explodes, I'm not proposing that anyone other than the
mother has the right to decide to abort (or not) the fetus. But there are
occasions where the father would have an interest in the outcome. And
that is something the two of them might discuss & negotiate.

Some people should be aware that what they believe concerns us,
might be less than what we believe concerns us.

 

[Sunstone]

This is a difference without a difference. Abortion is definitely a men's issue as well as a women's issue.

Perhaps, but in some crucial respects, not the same issues for both men and women. For instance, no man risks death to sire a child, but all women risk death to at least some extent in order to give birth. Again, no man risks wearing himself out physically and then dying young from having multiple children, but women can and sometimes do just that. Abortion is indeed a men's issue, but not always quite in the same ways as it's a women's issue, and it is highly arguable that it is a much more serious issue for women than for men.

 

[Akivah]

Some misguided feminists tell us that abortion isn't a men's issue.
But if it affects us as men, then it certainly is.

Another issue that gets me about new wave feminism is their stance that men have NO issues.

And how women should be allowed men-free zones, but men are not allowed to have women-free zones.

And so on. From what I see, the new wave feminism isn't seeking equality, but superiority over men.

 

[Akivah]

Abortion is indeed a men's issue, but not always quite in the same ways as it's a women's issue

I'll stop here and agree with this portion. Common ground and all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Another issue that gets me about new wave feminism is their stance that men have NO issues.

And how women should be allowed men-free zones, but men are not allowed to have women-free zones.

And so on. From what I see, the new wave feminism isn't seeking equality, but superiority over men.

Well, that's an extreme fringe.
We can't judge all feminists by the few who are bonkers.
Even some men's rights types will howl at the moon....it's true!

 

[Sunstone]

Men have a higher death rate and die earlier than women. So?

So, true, but logically irrelevant to the abortion issue since the causes of male mortality rates have nothing to do with abortions.

 

[Sunstone]

We die earlier than our wives because we want to.

Either that, or we die earlier because we are more inclined than our wives to the old "Hold my beer! I'll show you!" syndrome.

 

[columbus]

I'll see your evidence free handwave and raise you domestic violence rates and employment rates.

What evidence free hand wave?

Here in the USA,
If Joe and Barbara get together for some fun in the sack, and make a baby, Barbara holds all the cards. She might decide the fetus is an inconvenient clump of cells and order him/her removed. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. She can also decide that her fetal baby is a gift from God(or at least a meal ticket) and Joe owes her 20 years of child support. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. He may not want to take the responsibility of parenthood, but he doesn't have the legal option of saying "Here's enough cash to get an abortion. If you decide not to, don't call me."
Tom