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Feminism is not egalitarianism

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

When I think of feminism I think of the scholastic literature of Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin who famously exclaimed that pornography was rape. In fact, Dworkin once stated in the following:

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.... The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

Catharine Mackinnon followed suit and once said:

"Show me an abuse of women in society, I'll show it to you made sex in the pornography. If you want to know who is being hurt in this society, go see what is being done and to whom in pornography and then go look for them other places in the world. You will find them being hurt in just that way."

Dworkin:

"I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds."

Although these are two radical feminists their view, their literature and views are being taught in women's studies courses and many young impressionable girls tend to end up like this woman:


What is Feminism?

According to Merriam Websters dictionary definition feminism is

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes


2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?

I think what we teach our young girls in women's studies across the United States when we dive into the literature of Andrea Dworkin and Mackinnon is that women are perpetual victims. It seems women are absolved from all responsibility because after all "patriarchy made me do it!" the irony that women can utitlize both privilege and victimhood as if it is a switch like a stove which you can turn on and off is a powerful tool. Funny how people of color get blamed for utilizing social welfare programs yet society has yet to put a microscope on the very demongraphich that utilizes it the most: white women

(See:White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents)

Although the subject isn't about race there is a type of intersectionality that goes along with feminism in relation to ethnic demographics. But is feminism a part of egalitarianism? Some would say yes and no, but I believe in the affirm it is a big no. Therefore I leave you all with this:

 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think of myself as a feminist. I was even declared an 'honorary woman'. :)

But I don't think Dworkin and Mackinnon are representative of feminism. They are *very* extreme forms and very much NOT what most feminists would support (at least, from my experience).

I agree with egalitarianism, but given the inequities that currently exist, that often translates into feminism simply because that is one place where there are issues to be resolved (certainly not the only place).
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Saying feminism is not egalitarianism is misleading considering feminism is a type of egalitarianism.

If you think there's too much yelling and screaming in feminism, consider the fact that the people you're going to notice are always going to be the people yelling and screaming. Most people don't do that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

When I think of feminism I think of the scholastic literature of Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin who famously exclaimed that pornography was rape. In fact, Dworkin once stated in the following:

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.... The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

Catharine Mackinnon followed suit and once said:

"Show me an abuse of women in society, I'll show it to you made sex in the pornography. If you want to know who is being hurt in this society, go see what is being done and to whom in pornography and then go look for them other places in the world. You will find them being hurt in just that way."

Dworkin:

"I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds."

Although these are two radical feminists their view, their literature and views are being taught in women's studies courses and many young impressionable girls tend to end up like this woman:


What is Feminism?

According to Merriam Websters dictionary definition feminism is

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes


2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?

I think what we teach our young girls in women's studies across the United States when we dive into the literature of Andrea Dworkin and Mackinnon is that women are perpetual victims. It seems women are absolved from all responsibility because after all "patriarchy made me do it!" the irony that women can utitlize both privilege and victimhood as if it is a switch like a stove which you can turn on and off is a powerful tool. Funny how people of color get blamed for utilizing social welfare programs yet society has yet to put a microscope on the very demongraphich that utilizes it the most: white women

(See:White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents)

Although the subject isn't about race there is a type of intersectionality that goes along with feminism in relation to ethnic demographics. But is feminism a part of egalitarianism? Some would say yes and no, but I believe in the affirm it is a big no. Therefore I leave you all with this:

I find the thead's title too sweeping.
(But I also understand that titles must be provocative.)
When I surveyed different kinds of feminism on the internet,
I came up with about 2 dozen different kinds...some very very
different from each other. I found mine...libertarian feminism.
It, & a bunch of others are indeed egalitarian.

Think of them as egalitarianism with attention paid to issues
which particularly interest & affect females. (This is just as
some issues focus more upon men. It's all good.)
 
Last edited:

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

When I think of feminism I think of the scholastic literature of Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin who famously exclaimed that pornography was rape. In fact, Dworkin once stated in the following:

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.... The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

Catharine Mackinnon followed suit and once said:

"Show me an abuse of women in society, I'll show it to you made sex in the pornography. If you want to know who is being hurt in this society, go see what is being done and to whom in pornography and then go look for them other places in the world. You will find them being hurt in just that way."

Dworkin:

"I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds."

Although these are two radical feminists their view, their literature and views are being taught in women's studies courses and many young impressionable girls tend to end up like this woman:


What is Feminism?

According to Merriam Websters dictionary definition feminism is

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes


2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?

I think what we teach our young girls in women's studies across the United States when we dive into the literature of Andrea Dworkin and Mackinnon is that women are perpetual victims. It seems women are absolved from all responsibility because after all "patriarchy made me do it!" the irony that women can utitlize both privilege and victimhood as if it is a switch like a stove which you can turn on and off is a powerful tool. Funny how people of color get blamed for utilizing social welfare programs yet society has yet to put a microscope on the very demongraphich that utilizes it the most: white women

(See:White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents)

Although the subject isn't about race there is a type of intersectionality that goes along with feminism in relation to ethnic demographics. But is feminism a part of egalitarianism? Some would say yes and no, but I believe in the affirm it is a big no. Therefore I leave you all with this:

I have a lot to say on this matter, but I will lead with this:

If you are getting your perspectives on feminism from a YouTube "cringe compilation", then you're clearly not trying hard enough to actually understand feminism or feminists.
 
Last edited:

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I find the thead's title too sweeping.
(But I also understand that titles must be provocative.)
When I surveyed different kinds of feminism on the internet,
I came up with about 2 dozen different kinds...some very very
different from each other. I found mine...libertarian feminism.
It, & a bunch of others are indeed egalitarian.

Think of them as egalitarianism with attention paid to issues
which particularly interest & affect females. (This is just as
some issues focus more upon men. It's all good.)

The problem is that the concept of feminism is too splintered with varying concepts of feminism in relation to women of various backgrounds. The disadvantaged ought to be represented but to not cause confusion it should be under one umbrella.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I have a lot to say on this matter, but I will lead with this:

If you are getting your perspectives on feminism from a YouTube "cringe compilation", then you're clearly not trying hard enough to actually understand feminism or feminists.

The video was for sh*ts and giggles really. But like I told my girl, the ones that make the most noise in feminism are radicals. Often times they are making claims unhinged, unchained, in a berserker like fashion. I realize all feminists are not created equal but radical feminist give feminism a bad name.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The problem is that the concept of feminism is too splintered with varying concepts of feminism in relation to women of various backgrounds. The disadvantaged ought to be represented but to not cause confusion it should be under one umbrella.
One umbrella?
Ain't happening.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Maybe the issue is who you think of.

Maybe instead you should think of Mary Wollstonecraft, Simone de Beauvoir or Angela Davis.

If you only look into the feminists of certain varieties you create a strawman of the group as Feminism is a very diverse grouping of labels.

Liberal Feminists, Radical feminists, Marxist Feminists, Gender critical feminists, etc. all have very different genealogies of thought.

Feminism is important because saying one is for equality is not enough. One must actively be concerned with diagnosing different types of inequality IE: patriarchy. Something which proponents of "egalitarianism" always seem to attack as something sectarian.

I'm well aware of varying kinds of feminism as I have stated in my original post if you recall, however I'm alluding to the radical feminists that are commandeering the feminist voice. Angela Davis I'm well aware of, however she was considered a black feminist, encapsulated in the black power movement in her time. My position here as an egalitarian is that true equality is absolved of schisms and labels. That true equality is when we fight inequality for both men and women respectively.

My main issue with feminism as it presents itself in the western world is it is through the lens of western civilization. Shortly after 9/11 when western society was exposed to Islam, many western women perceived Muslim dress for women as oppressive. Little did they know women in the middle east have been wearing head coverings for thousands of years. But to them it was oppressive. Who determines oppression? The only ones who can make such a determination are the people themselves.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
While I don't agree with radical feminism, I feel it's important that there are a lot of pillars to radical feminism, and radical feminism isn't just a term to describe perceived extremes.

*Not saying you didn't know this, I just feel like it's important to bring up early in a discussion for the clarity of all parties involved & observers.

Agreed. I must admit the writings of Mackinnon and Dworkin put a bad taste in my mouth in undergraduate studies. I felt at that time those radical writings just gave young girls who were sexually assaulted an extreme platform to hate men.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well it prevents people from viewing inequality from their subjective perspective (i.e the hijab as perceived to be an object of oppression).
It will always be subjective & diverse.

Btw, I think you mean to use "e.g." (exempli gratia)
rather than "i.e." (id est) when citing an example.
(Pedantic, ain't I.)

As for the hijab, it can either be a choice or oppression.
Depends upon circumstances.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I find the thead's title too sweeping.

Huh?
Thread Title:- Feminism is not egalitarianism

That is exactly correct........
Feminism is one section of egalitarianism, but there are about 7 other sections as well.

Racial equality is another section of egalitarianism, but it's perfectly feasible for a Feminist to be racist. See? QED.
:p
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Huh?
Thread Title:- Feminism is not egalitarianism

That is exactly correct........
Feminism is one section of egalitarianism, but there are about 7 other sections as well.

Racial equality is another section of egalitarianism, but it's perfectly feasible for a Feminist to be racist. See? QED.
:p
I'd explain why you're wrong, but it would involve grammar & set theory.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Personally, I don't understand the reason for feminism's continuing existence. Women already have equal rights to men in the US, under law. The remaining differences are either based on biology or personal choice, nothing that can be legislated.

From what I see, most women don't want feminism, like Chani Randazzo.
What is feminism?
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

When I think of feminism I think of the scholastic literature of Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin who famously exclaimed that pornography was rape. In fact, Dworkin once stated in the following:

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.... The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

Catharine Mackinnon followed suit and once said:

"Show me an abuse of women in society, I'll show it to you made sex in the pornography. If you want to know who is being hurt in this society, go see what is being done and to whom in pornography and then go look for them other places in the world. You will find them being hurt in just that way."

Dworkin:

"I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds."

Although these are two radical feminists their view, their literature and views are being taught in women's studies courses and many young impressionable girls tend to end up like this woman:


What is Feminism?

According to Merriam Websters dictionary definition feminism is

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes


2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?

I think what we teach our young girls in women's studies across the United States when we dive into the literature of Andrea Dworkin and Mackinnon is that women are perpetual victims. It seems women are absolved from all responsibility because after all "patriarchy made me do it!" the irony that women can utitlize both privilege and victimhood as if it is a switch like a stove which you can turn on and off is a powerful tool. Funny how people of color get blamed for utilizing social welfare programs yet society has yet to put a microscope on the very demongraphich that utilizes it the most: white women

(See:White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents)

Although the subject isn't about race there is a type of intersectionality that goes along with feminism in relation to ethnic demographics. But is feminism a part of egalitarianism? Some would say yes and no, but I believe in the affirm it is a big no. Therefore I leave you all with this:

Culture is reading dorks. It's religion was founded by women explained by me so of course feminism is as stupid as patriarchalism it's dopplegangers. I wish this image had a female twin and a male twin to drive home the fact culture is stupid and normal at the same time. Books ha!!! Dorks.
Bele_and_Lokai.jpg
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
If so few women self-identify as being feminists, doesn't that make all stripes of self-identifying feminists somewhat radical when compared to the norm?

*Dons flame retardant forum jump suit*
*Braces for impact*
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think Women's rights seems like a very reasonable target. I think a reasonable target is getting women educated, getting them the right to go about and do things and to be able to support themselves when they need to.

I think the term 'Feminism' is a trophy that various groups want to claim. There are waves of feminism, schools of feminism and different theories that faculty subscribe to. Saying 'Feminist' seems sort of like saying 'Defender of the Faith'. England, France and Spain all compete to get the title; but who is the real defender of the faith? What is Feminism? To answer the question is no longer simple.
 
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