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Feminism is not egalitarianism

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

I think equality should amount to equal authority. The authority to make ones own choice.

Kind of silly to think of equality to mean equal ability or equal treatment.

Folks don't have equal ability and I don't treat people equally. People who possess greater ability I expect more out of. People of lessor ability I don't disparage for giving me what they are capable of.

Women are usually, not always not as physically strong as men. Women, not always choose different careers than men.

So if I offer to help a woman, it's not because I'm a sexist. It's because I'm physically stronger, usually. If some physically stronger female offers to help me with some physical task, it's all good.

I open doors for men and women. I'm just being courteous.

Most women I ran into like being treated differently. If they let me know they don't like it, I'm happy to oblige.

Perhaps I've never ran into an "equal treatment" type feminist since I've never had anyone complain about my treatment of them.

So I give people equal authority over their choices. This idea of equal treatment seems an unrealistic goal to me.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I'd explain why you're wrong, but it would involve grammar & set theory.

Oh right........ yeah......
Like you've got a qualification to deliver the lessons!
:p

I'm not wrong, Egalitarianism includes support for women's rights, conditions, opinions, pay, positions etc but covers so much more, many aspects which some feminists might not support all of.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Oh right........ yeah......
Like you've got a qualification to deliver the lessons!
:p

I'm not wrong, Egalitarianism includes support for women's rights, conditions, opinions, pay, positions etc but covers so much more, many aspects which some feminists might not support all of.
See....I implied you wouldn't understand.
And you don't.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Radical feminism is a distinct genealogy of thought.
Anti-feminists have popularized the use of "radical feminist" to mean extreme, but the term is not used that way among feminists.
Which doesn't really answer my question while begging the question as to how you mean the term? <evil grin>
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Radical feminism is a distinct genealogy of thought.
Anti-feminists have popularized the use of "radical feminist" to mean extreme, but the term is not used that way among feminists.

HI......

Could you show how the descriptions 'radical feminist' and 'extreme feminist' differ?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think Women's rights seems like a very reasonable target. I think a reasonable target is getting women educated, getting them the right to go about and do things and to be able to support themselves when they need to.
Women around here are strong about women's equality, but most would frown at the above because their ideas go way beyond 'rights' and they'd dislike the idea of 'supporting themselves when they need to'.
I can imagine responses such as 'I'm not disabled mate!'

They expect EXACTLY the same opportunities in education, skills, careers, professions, and the expect EXACTLY the same rewards, and they seek EXACTLY the same social and community levels of respect.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The video was for sh*ts and giggles really. But like I told my girl, the ones that make the most noise in feminism are radicals.
The ones who make the most noise in almost any circle are the radicals. The fact is that you're making sweeping generalizations by saying that University courses teaching feminism leads exclusively to those kinds of radicals.

Often times they are making claims unhinged, unchained, in a berserker like fashion. I realize all feminists are not created equal but radical feminist give feminism a bad name.
Once again, radicals of any group give their group a bad name. The point is that you honestly don't seem very educated about the subject of feminism to begin with, so you're not really qualified to say who or what gives it a "bad name".
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I don't equate feminism to egalitarianism. You've never heard anyone say "Watch out that person is a crazy egalitarian!" On the other hand you do have feminist in YouTubes trending feed with videos "Kill all men and male children". Just saying.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No....
Your post implied that you haven't got an opposing or differing opinion of any value.
It's just that the explanation is above the pay grade of an omnivorous furry
little shopping mall security guard with short legs, cute though you be.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?
The description is appropriate, the commentary is not. Feminism necessarily takes sides, where egalitarianism cannot. The commentary above speaks to emotional investment in feminism, and not feminism itself. Some women are strongly invested because they strongly feel that they, as an individual or as a collective, have been wronged. If someone commits a crime because of that, that is apart from what feminism is about.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Women around here are strong about women's equality, but most would frown at the above because their ideas go way beyond 'rights' and they'd dislike the idea of 'supporting themselves when they need to'.
I can imagine responses such as 'I'm not disabled mate!'

They expect EXACTLY the same opportunities in education, skills, careers, professions, and the expect EXACTLY the same rewards, and they seek EXACTLY the same social and community levels of respect.
Informative, and I have encountered someone from the UK who has shown me some displeasure on this issue, made me feel like a backwoods hick beneath their respect. Actually it made me feel schizophrenic, because I could go back to the women who expected me to behave differently. Somehow feminism has crossed into the boundaries of guessing games. What makes an individual feel respected? What makes them feel disrespected? Is this feminism? Is that? It surprises me that some feminism crosses into the realm of questions like "Should women and men all shower together? Should we just drop this whole 'Modesty' thing? Is it disrespecting women? Is it patriarchy?" Some feminists would say definitely. Others would say not. I've seen it right here on this forum and in other places. Cultural norms of foreign lands are argued to be feminist, and sometimes the cultural norms of dead and gone societies are. To me the question is no longer really about whether women should be respected. They are already respected in most places where womens rights are the law.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
***This is my last post here until graduate school is done but I'll comment from time to time but I felt it was something necessary to bring up to spark debate here***

Recently my girlfriend and I started discussing feminism in relation to western civilization, people of color, and all that is in between. It was quite interesting because I didn't know she was feminist until we started talking about social issues and I noticed she was quite outspoken in her reference to women (mind you upon making her point she always referenced women and oppression). During the conversation, she exclaimed with pride "and yes I am a feminist!" with such a feisty attitude it was quite funny. However, I informed her I'm an egalitarian, and I believe when we discuss issues of equality, it should be across genders, races, religions, disabilities etc

When I think of feminism I think of the scholastic literature of Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin who famously exclaimed that pornography was rape. In fact, Dworkin once stated in the following:

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.... The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

Catharine Mackinnon followed suit and once said:

"Show me an abuse of women in society, I'll show it to you made sex in the pornography. If you want to know who is being hurt in this society, go see what is being done and to whom in pornography and then go look for them other places in the world. You will find them being hurt in just that way."

Dworkin:

"I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds."

Although these are two radical feminists their view, their literature and views are being taught in women's studies courses and many young impressionable girls tend to end up like this woman:


What is Feminism?

According to Merriam Websters dictionary definition feminism is

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes


2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Although definitively its core base is about equality, the interest that feminism takes is on behalf of women which is different than being egalitarian. To be egalitarian means you believe in the removal of social inequalities among all people. Feminism, which is comprised of other aspects such as Eco-Feminism, Radical Feminism and Marxist-Feminism, are all concerned about the world from a feminine perspective. I personally do not believe feminism at least expressed in the western world speaks for women of color who may have it twice as hard than their no-person-of-color counterparts. Western feminism is more vocal because it is composed of many white radical feminists like Dworkin and Mackinnon who are outspoken on social issues concerning women and men. For them, the radicals, when can do no wrong in a world of patriarchy because in one way or another patriarchy has influenced women in some way.

The problem with western feminism as I see it, is that there is too much yelling, screaming, and blaming of men for some social issues women may be held responsible for. For example, many feminists are vocal when it comes to rape as they should be. But what about women who falsely accuse men? Sure statistically it does not happen as often but it does and it presents a problem that some women will often use their undeserved sense of entitlement and victimhood to accuse men of sexual assault or rape for personal gain. Often times I hear the age old adage, "women want equal rights but not equal responsibility."

Is that true?

I think what we teach our young girls in women's studies across the United States when we dive into the literature of Andrea Dworkin and Mackinnon is that women are perpetual victims. It seems women are absolved from all responsibility because after all "patriarchy made me do it!" the irony that women can utitlize both privilege and victimhood as if it is a switch like a stove which you can turn on and off is a powerful tool. Funny how people of color get blamed for utilizing social welfare programs yet society has yet to put a microscope on the very demongraphich that utilizes it the most: white women

(See:White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents)

Although the subject isn't about race there is a type of intersectionality that goes along with feminism in relation to ethnic demographics. But is feminism a part of egalitarianism? Some would say yes and no, but I believe in the affirm it is a big no. Therefore I leave you all with this:

Maybe try avoiding the strawman version of feminism when discussing such thin gs with your girlfriend if you wish her to remain as such

IMG_2416.jpg
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Formal equality =/= substantive equality.

In a state where abortion is illegal, men and women both have equal rights to get an abortion.
Does that mean it ceases to be a women's issue? No.

Patriarchy is still an issue in the states.
(Even if it wasn't, politics isn't just about the yankees.)

Your abortion comment makes no sense to me. Abortion is a men's issue as well.

If we have a patriarchy, then we also have a matriarchy. So what?

Women already have equal rights. Equal rights does NOT mean equal outcomes. The differences in outcome are almost all due to personal choices and preferences.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's just that the explanation is above the pay grade of an omnivorous furry
little shopping mall security guard with short legs, cute though you be.

Ha ha! Most of the Store Tecs, Test Purchasers and retail investigators that I trained had degrees from other fields.

And you couldn't do a retail security officer's job without going through the UK government's, induction and field training.... you'd mess up within a week, cost a packet or worse! :)

Gosh, what a bigoted opinion..... :p
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Your abortion comment makes no sense to me. Abortion is a men's issue as well.

If we have a patriarchy, then we also have a matriarchy. So what?

Women already have equal rights. Equal rights does NOT mean equal outcomes. The differences in outcome are almost all due to personal choices and preferences.
Equal rights on paper =/= equal rights in practice.
Abortion is a men's issue as well.
Not until men start getting pregnant.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Equal rights on paper =/= equal rights in practice.Not until men start getting pregnant.

Nonsense. Men have a responsibility to raise this child, whether they wanted it or not, plus they have to make child support payments.

Women already have equal rights in practice as well.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Informative, and I have encountered someone from the UK who has shown me some displeasure on this issue, made me feel like a backwoods hick beneath their respect.
Oh we've got our idiots, bus loads of 'em. :)
What was that particular person's ideas?

Actually it made me feel schizophrenic, because I could go back to the women who expected me to behave differently. Somehow feminism has crossed into the boundaries of guessing games.
Hold on....... blokes together can behave differently as well. People have differing feelings etc, but the basic foundations of full equality can remain the same.

What makes an individual feel respected? What makes them feel disrespected? Is this feminism? Is that?
That's individuality. What makes you feel respected or not? That could differ from me to some extent. We need to focus upon the foundations of a basic equality about men and women, surely?

It surprises me that some feminism crosses into the realm of questions like "Should women and men all shower together? Should we just drop this whole 'Modesty' thing? Is it disrespecting women? Is it patriarchy?" Some feminists would say definitely.
Some men might prefer to shower alone, some women might. Here in the UK we have separate toilet cubicles for everybody whereas in some countries they have (or had) communal loos.
Why shouldn't people have privacy to urinate, or bathe, or brush their teeth? Most do, I think.

Others would say not. I've seen it right here on this forum and in other places. Cultural norms of foreign lands are argued to be feminist, and sometimes the cultural norms of dead and gone societies are.
Nobody has the right to tell a man or woman how to wash, bathe, go to the toilet, dress or anything else, so where a person raises these questions they surely need to understand that the answers will differ, it's nothing to do with gender equality.

To me the question is no longer really about whether women should be respected. They are already respected in most places where womens rights are the law.
It's not just the law...... UK equality law is not bad, but laws can't make a person respect another, it's also about hearts and minds.
We've got cartloads of bigots despite our good laws, and they show moronic minds over low intelligences, mental and physical disabilities, ages, genders (both), races, colours, nationalities ..... you name it.

Look at other kinds of bigotry...........

My (young) wife and I, we went to a wedding reception a couple of years back and sat at a circular table for the reception. For some reason the question went round the table about ages and folks were giving their ages to all. When I gave my age as 68 the husband of my wife's boss said loudly to my wife, 'And so in two years you'll be married to a 70yr old man....... so there!'

At another party a very religious gentleman explained to all that an electrical engineer who had been fitting external lighting to his home had been 'at least over 50' and had no right to be working on installations any more! When I asked he said that the work was OK and he had paid...... :shrug:

There you are, two examples of Ageist bigotry ........ so gender equality is bound to show up plenty of tw*ts, but in general we're moving forward. :)
 
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