The ONLY religious question!

[Daisies4me]

By whom? I didn't get the impression it was disputed much at all amongst scholars in the field. By laypersons? Yeah, I could see that, especially given people in my country have a very poor appreciation for how much environmental factors govern human behavior. Or, honestly, logic in general in terms of suspending assessments of someone's character in the absence of adequate data. We are horrible at saying "you acted like a jerk" and just jump to "you are a jerk." It's something I kinda hate about my culture.



Sorry. I'm just wondering why you would claim someone is "blindly stupid" for thinking in such a fashion. That seems awfully presumptuous. We know next to nothing else about these people aside from this particular idea they have, but now they're "blindly stupid?" I don't see how that makes sense or is a valuable explanation. I doubt it has anything to do with stupidity or blindness. It seems to me that for the religions that hold that idea of "one true way," they accept it based on an external authority not an internal one. Mysticism is frowned upon by these same paths, after all - direct revelation or directly knowing your gods is not encouraged and often discouraged. I suppose if you want to be cynical and say all humans are "blindly stupid" because we have things called cultural traditions and social hierarchies sure, but... eh... that's not really how I roll.

--------------





If I may add a couple of thoughts to the conversation: Jesus, the Son of God, The Messiah, or Christ, spoke in parables when speaking in public -- do you know why he did that?
One parable that helps us to understand why many people hear 'truths' but don't accept them for the long run... it is found in Matthew chapter 13 speaks to this. The offer is given, but many reject it. The indication is that due to the condition of the heart of the listener, that one may cherish what they learn, and continue searching out truths, while others may loose interest or be otherwise occupied and not pay attention. It depends on the heart condition of the one hearing the message, whether the seeds sown grow or wither and die.

 

[bobhikes]

Really? That's a convenient circular reasoning. "Things are the way I believe they are because God made it that way." "This is true, because God made it that way". What happens with this line of reasoning when somebody believes something opposite from you and claims the same thing, they God made it the way they think of it?


No it doesn't.


Wrong. We are programmed from early childhood on through adulthood by our family, friends, community, and culture what things to believe in and value, and what things to reject. These truths are an agreed upon reality, a consensus reality that we are shaped and molded to believe in order to fit in with others.

We rarely even question it, and when we meet someone of another culture whose consensus reality is different from ours, the reactions are typically that the other person is wrong. We do that to protect our truths from being disrupted and threaten our sense of reality we've not sought to know, but merely adopted.


What you're finding is simply a different perspective, and it is the rare individual who actually presses beyond their given consensus reality they understand as truth and their God happened to ordain as true for them.

If there is a God, God's truth is that God is the Truth, its rather simple. If God is a loving God god wants you to have faith and not need to seek the truth.

Without a god the only way to find Truth is to seek it. I believe that is what Scientists do. How do you find truth?

Belief and Truth are not the same. Consensus is not Truth

It may be rare that an individual press beyond their consensus reality but it is possible.

 

[rusra02]

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

I believe that the truth is available to everyone. The problem is, many really do not want to know the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3,4 describes the situation I believe exists today; "For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories."
Add to this the fact that "Satan...is misleading the entire inhabited earth", I find little wonder that only a relatively small minority know and follow the truth. (Revelation 12:9)

 

[Daisies4me]

windwalker said: We are programmed from early childhood on through adulthood by our family, friends, community, and culture what things to believe in and value, and what things to reject. These truths are an agreed upon reality, a consensus reality that we are shaped and molded to believe in order to fit in with others.

We rarely even question it, and when we meet someone of another culture whose consensus reality is different from ours, the reactions are typically that the other person is wrong. We do that to protect our truths from being disrupted and threaten our sense of reality we've not sought to know, but merely adopted.
------------
while that may be true for some, it is not my reality, nor is it the reality of many people I know. In fact , what some of us witnessed our family doing or teaching actually turned us away from 'religion', as it were.... some of us could not accept the hypocrisy, 'don't do as I do, but do as I say do" attitude, and the very UNChristian actions vs. the pretend in public / in church false pretenses.
Many of us said to ourselves something like, "if that is how God is, then I don't need God in my life" at that time, because we were so hurt by the example set before us, that we blamed God. But God recognized those of us who were hurt in our hearts by the false preachers, fake churches in it for the money, etc., and when we were so conflicted in our heart that we cried out in prayer in private something like "if there is a God up there, please, help me to understand, and guide me to truth". I actually did this, and know of many others that I have met in life, that had similar circumstances, and we were all led to the same global organization of worshipers. I highly recommend it, if done with a sincere heart, and ask that you not immediately reject the source, and don't be surprised where the information comes from, and how it is brought to you.....

 

[sealchan]

William James in his The Varieties of Religious Experience described typical forms of religious experience including the distinction between the "once-born" and the the "twice-born". The once born have their faith typically from childhood or were introduced agreeably to their faith and suffered no trouble about it. The twice born often underwent a period of suffering or struggle before coming to a "life-saving" revelation that allowed them to live free and breathe the breath of meaning once again.

No one makes of themselves these kinds of experiences. Some, perhaps, mistake the faiths of the other kind as unnecessary, insufficient or misguided. The twice-born might wish to "lord it over" others their special experience.
If we listen to each other and take what is said sincerely we may find that the variety in our backgrounds is all part of the manifestation of true spiritual knowledge differing in differing people.The Tower of Babel is, perhaps, a challenge for us to overcome rather than an eternal barrier we shall never cross.

 

[1robin]

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

At least you opened up with rabid statements instead of waiting until your thin veneer of civility wore through.

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

God did not say yell at Christians until I come to your house to be interviewed by you. He said if you diligently seek him, you would find him.

What I know (and what billions have known) that may provide us ultimate salvation, that others do not? Christ.

 

[Windwalker]

If there is a God, God's truth is that God is the Truth, its rather simple. If God is a loving God god wants you to have faith and not need to seek the truth.

Why would you assume these things about God? Another may assume something else about God and call his thoughts "rather simple" as well. What makes your thoughts right and his wrong? Because they are your's and shared by those of your culture? That's rather convenient, wouldn't you say?

Without a god the only way to find Truth is to seek it. I believe that is what Scientists do. How do you find truth?

There are multiple meanings to the word truth. Are you talking about facts, or are you talking about meaningful understandings that have usefulness? I'm of the understanding that all our truths are relative to the context of our own perceptions, and are not absolute. If I were to attempt to explain how I find truth, I would need to write an entire book on the topic.

Belief and Truth are not the same. Consensus is not Truth

You are wrong.

It may be rare that an individual press beyond their consensus reality but it is possible.

Yes, but you first have to recognize the relative nature of truth first. Do you understand that?

 

[Diak (Jack) Anosh]

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Is that question limited to those in Hell? "What the hell..." not being capitalized, causes me to think it may be more general in scope. Not limited to the usual "What in Hell..." kinda thing.

Anyway, I'll take a chance.

If you know your bible, then you know how truly narrow correctness can get, whether in understanding,. wisdom, righteousness, or a host of other considerations, "broad is the way" to ignorance and licentiousness; but narrow the way to "rightness."

"Many CALLED - Few CHOSEN." What do you think those are, suggestions?

They are a measure of expectation, that is designed to keep the truth-seeker truly seeking.

What do you think God is doing here? Just alliterating Hyperbole to instigate homework for bible students?

No, my friend, He is attempting to warn everyone who cares, that not everyone knows truth, just by virtue of caring, but more is required.

I know a few things that have been altered by traditionalists, "orthodoxy - promoters" who have convinced themselves "Orthodoxy" is actually a standard for truth; but the reality is, "consensus" has replaced truth in bible comprehension.

I have been shown many things contrary to "what everyone knows" in scripture, but I am held back from teaching it lest I presume self-promotion. I am told to wait until I am asked, then proceed with explanation.

And I am not in Hell.

 

[bobhikes]

Why would you assume these things about God? Another may assume something else about God and call his thoughts "rather simple" as well. What makes your thoughts right and his wrong? Because they are your's and shared by those of your culture? That's rather convenient, wouldn't you say?


There are multiple meanings to the word truth. Are you talking about facts, or are you talking about meaningful understandings that have usefulness? I'm of the understanding that all our truths are relative to the context of our own perceptions, and are not absolute. If I were to attempt to explain how I find truth, I would need to write an entire book on the topic.

Yes, but you first have to recognize the relative nature of truth first. Do you understand that?

I assume nothing I realize there are many types of God but not all God's use faith and I am comparing faith to truth.

There are multiple meanings of everything.
One Truth is that we are all individuals with different experiences and view reality differently. I understand this and allow others there view not imposing my view.

Yes I understand Truth.

 

[shmogie]

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Well, actually well over a billion believe in the truth that I do. How can you be so blindly stupid as to think you know more than they ?

 

[Diak (Jack) Anosh]

Well, actually well over a billion believe in the truth that I do. How can you be so blindly stupid as to think you know more than they ?

Upon a time, Galilae Galileo stood against the teaching of the church, and all the scientific thought of the day, when he taught that the world is not flat, and the sun did not revolve around Earth.

He was arrested, tried by the Inquisition, found guilty of Heresy, and under House Arrest for LIFE.

His books were banned, till the Pope released them in the 19th or 20th century for public consumption.

So much for what "Everyone knows." And especially among the scholars and wise ones.

 

[shmogie]

Upon a time, Galilae Galileo stood against the teaching of the church, and all the scientific thought of the day, when he taught that the world is not flat, and the sun did not revolve around Earth.

He was arrested, tried by the Inquisition, found guilty of Heresy, and under House Arrest for LIFE.

His books were banned, till the Pope released them in the 19th or 20th century for public consumption.

So much for what "Everyone knows." And especially among the scholars and wise ones.

The point being what ? Actually, the Bible supports Galileo's position. "Everyone knows" can't be everyone if it is a billion +. My point being that the wise one of atheism wanted to know why anyone could hang on to a truth, that others don't.

 

[Diak (Jack) Anosh]

The point being what ? Actually, the Bible supports Galileo's position.

THAT IS the point. "Everyone knew" that which was popular, but wrong. Galileo knew they were wrong, and paid for his brilliance and humility with "house arrest for life" for confronting ignorance without respect of the persons.

Hm m m m! Isn't that kinda familiar?

"Everyone knows" can't be everyone if it is a billion +. My point being that the wise one of atheism wanted to know why anyone could hang on to a truth, that others don't.

Because it is a matter of truth, not popular view.

 

[Windwalker]

I assume nothing I realize there are many types of God but not all God's use faith and I am comparing faith to truth.

Define what you mean by faith? Is it related to truth propositions? Beliefs, in other words?

There are multiple meanings of everything.
One Truth is that we are all individuals with different experiences and view reality differently. I understand this and allow others there view not imposing my view.

Then you understand what you believe is not necessarily "the Truth"?

Yes I understand Truth.

What does that look like to you? Does it encompass other's ideas of truth as it does your own?

 

[bobhikes]

Define what you mean by faith? Is it related to truth propositions? Beliefs, in other words?


Then you understand what you believe is not necessarily "the Truth"?


What does that look like to you? Does it encompass other's ideas of truth as it does your own?

I do not believe a Truth, It is a truth.

As to Truth it is the same for all of us. How we explain truth or convey it to others will be different but the truth is not. How you or I find the truth is different but the truth is not. A truth is a truth.

There was another truth shared during this thread basically Change is constant. This a truth within every sec, min, hour, day change is constantly happening.

There you have 2 truths that are not beliefs. There are more but the explanation gets more complicated and I doubt you and I will agree but the Truth will still be correct our comprehension will be flawed.

 

[JustWondering]

why should God bother?

If god doesn't care about his creation and has better things to do than yea, why should he bother? Good point, the abrahamic god isn't exactly a lovey dovey kind of deity.

 

[Thief]

If god doesn't care about his creation and has better things to do than yea, why should he bother? Good point, the abrahamic god isn't exactly a lovey dovey kind of deity.

if you quote ALL of my post .....instead of the portion you care to twist.....

so...in your response...
you are part of God's creation?

 

[JustWondering]

if you quote ALL of my post .....instead of the portion you care to twist.....

so...in your response...
you are part of God's creation?

What exactly did I "twist"?

If some kind of creator exists than obviously, yes. The abrahamic god however is thankfully just a bunch of bronze age mythology.

 

[Thief]

What exactly did I "twist"?

If some kind of creator exists than obviously, yes. The abrahamic god however is thankfully just a bunch of bronze age mythology.

I lean to belief....God as Creator
you mentioned creation

if you are part of His creation and abide as such.....
or if you prefer to make denial...

then how is there doubt?.....your future?

 

[JustWondering]

I lean to belief....God as Creator
you mentioned creation

if you are part of His creation and abide as such.....
or if you prefer to make denial...

then how is there doubt?.....your future?

Can you rephrase this post in plain english? This isn't a poetry forum, it's a debate forum, fyi.