The ONLY religious question!

[Kenny]

Yes, you knock and question, and you think you get answers: my only question for you is this -- how do you know that they are God's answers, and not your own?

The tree is known by its fruits.

Yes... the older one gets, the closer you are to dying. Like.... we ALL die. One can pray all they want but where did the Bible say your flesh will live forever?

So, praying, is qualified Biblically and logically.

Then why pray? Since you've just guaranteed that your prayers will play no part in any outcome at all, why bother?

That was quite a hyper -jump. Where did I say that my prayers play no part? There are all types of prayers. But if you are a hundred and twenty, and your body is going out, on the basis of WHAT are you going to pray for healing?

If one is to look at this Biblically, then there is a Devil too who kills, steals and destroys. So, yes, God didn't participate in that action. So... is there really a point here? You certainly haven't made one yet.

No, it is NOT ridiculous. What is ridiculous is to say that there is that Devil and that an omnipotent and omniscient God can't do diddly squat about it. Omnipotence and "Can't" are polar opposites. God being immanent and ever-present is incompatible with "God didn't participate." God, as defined, cannot NOT participate.

Yes, it IS ridiculous.

You have just created a juxtaposition of an inmovable object against an unstoppable force. A ridiculous side by side comparison. You have eliminated free will as is man has no part in the equation.

Religious "truth" makes me laugh -- they make up all this guff about God, and then when it doesn't work out the way that their guff guarantees it must, then they create excuses. And that, by the way, is the very definition of "theodicy." And every Christian theodicy known to man is nothing more than an attempt to reconcile and excuse what can't be reconcile and excuses, given the definition of the Christian God.

If your position is on that theory that man has no part, yes. BUT... since we do have a part... no.

I wonder what the fascination is with being at "God's throne?" Does being abject make one feel comfortable and protected? Given what I've observed, it wouldn't work for me.

And so it is as you have believed.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I do not know. But before, I was blind and now I see. I do not know how to do that. If I did, I would do it to you and to everyone else.

And yet, is it not also true that many, many people have made that same claim: "I was blind and now I see," except that so many of them are so different, often so opposed to one another. This has given us such religions and faith systems as Judaism, Christianity and Islam (in all their varieties), Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Celtic polytheism, Germanic paganism, Wicca, Shinto, Falun Gong, Korean shamanism, the Maya, Aztec and Inca religions (all different), and so many (roughly 4,200) more!

It strikes as a hard thing for 2 opposing visions to both be true, let alone many.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If one is to look at this Biblically, then there is a Devil too who kills, steals and destroys. So, yes, God didn't participate in that action. So... is there really a point here? You certainly haven't made one yet.

No, it is NOT ridiculous. What is ridiculous is to say that there is that Devil and that an omnipotent and omniscient God can't do diddly squat about it. Omnipotence and "Can't" are polar opposites. God being immanent and ever-present is incompatible with "God didn't participate." God, as defined, cannot NOT participate.

Yes, it IS ridiculous.

You have just created a juxtaposition of an inmovable object against an unstoppable force. A ridiculous side by side comparison. You have eliminated free will as is man has no part in the equation.

I didn't create that juxtaposition, nor did I eliminate free will -- you did. You gave us the devil who kills, steals and destroys, about which God does nothing and man -- by the definition of the Devil -- can do nothing.

 

[Kenny]

I didn't create that juxtaposition, nor did I eliminate free will -- you did. You gave us the devil who kills, steals and destroys, about which God does nothing and man -- by the definition of the Devil -- can do nothing.

illogical, Captain Kirk

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

illogical, Captain Kirk

No, the logic is quite complete and intact. However, when examined through the lens of the religious instinct to ignore anything that threatens the core belief, that will never be seen.

This is standard fare in this sort of discussion. The religious constantly tell me "if you don't seek, you won't find." To which I constantly remind them, "if you don't look, you'll never see."

And there we are...

 

[Kenny]

No, the logic is quite complete and intact. However, when examined through the lens of the religious instinct to ignore anything that threatens the core belief, that will never be seen.

This is standard fare in this sort of discussion. The religious constantly tell me "if you don't seek, you won't find." To which I constantly remind them, "if you don't look, you'll never see."

And there we are...

LOL... It sounds more like it is you that is threatened. I have assurance. I don't attack atheism but you are always on the defense (attack) when anything sounds like there's a God.

Ignore? illogical! Logical defend, more like it.

The discourse was enjoyable.

 

[savagewind]

And yet, is it not also true that many, many people have made that same claim: "I was blind and now I see," except that so many of them are so different, often so opposed to one another. This has given us such religions and faith systems as Judaism, Christianity and Islam (in all their varieties), Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Celtic polytheism, Germanic paganism, Wicca, Shinto, Falun Gong, Korean shamanism, the Maya, Aztec and Inca religions (all different), and so many (roughly 4,200) more!

It strikes as a hard thing for 2 opposing visions to both be true, let alone many.

I have seen that all Earth's people's belief systems have some truth in them. Even atheism. For instance, I think that I am much closer to atheism than I am to some mainstream Christian religions.

 

[Prestor John]

You do realize that some nonbelievers who have actually mulled things over quite a bit and did not come to their non-belief lightly probably think THIS EXACT SAME THING about believers, right?

Can you quote where I made any claim about all nonbelievers?

In other words, I could have made this exact same statement and been completely sincere in stating it... about you.

Explain how you could do this considering that I don't complain or "rant" about nonbelievers?​

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Can you quote where I made any claim about all nonbelievers?

Explain how you could do this considering that I don't complain or "rant" about nonbelievers?​

You're right... you didn't specifically cite nonbelievers with the statement:

Then we have people who could care less about finding out what is or is not true and would rather spend their time complaining about those more motivated than themselves to discover the truth.

That was my poor assumption. My mind equated it with non-belief when I read it... as if to say that nonbelievers don't know "the truth" by default (because believers do - you being a believer, I'd figure this was probably a safe bet), that their qualms with religion are "complaints," and those complaints are directed at people who are "more motivated to discover the truth" because they are directed at believers.

You didn't actually say any of that, so my apologies.

 

[Prestor John]

Fascinating, but pretty much meaningless.

According to you...

It's a pretty easy thing to say that if you ask, you'll receive, or if you knock, it'll be opened. It's a little harder to demonstrate. And in fact, is almost never demonstrated, but simply accepted (on the few occasions that it seems to happen).

The exact opposite is true actually.

If you had a chance to meet me and see how I have chosen to live my life, then you would see me demonstrating the fact that I have received what I asked for.

Revelation from God does not come at the whim of Man to satisfy their "lust" or curiosity.

God will only answer those who ask with sincerity and real intent (meaning that they are intent on actually acting on the answer they receive) and if it is according to Law and His will.

Even the truly sincere to not receive an answer every time.

See, most really old, or sick, or dying people actually die -- despite the prayers of those who love them.

This comment could be proof of your lack of sincerity.

You are falsely trying to equate praying to God for answers with making a wish to a genie.

You can't receive answers without a basic understanding, which you would most likely have by now if you were at all sincere in your search for spiritual truth.

Fifteen young people died in Saskatchewan a couple of days ago, even though nobody (that I know of) wanted them to die. A lot of people are hurting immensely as a result. God, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to have participated.

Where did God claim that He is an active participant in every single person's death?

Where did God claim that He would deny all of us the opportunity to experience heartache and sorrow?

(Or at least, there's no evidence of His involvement, and if there were -- since they died -- I think it would have to be interpreted somewhat negatively, don't you?)

No.

I am not naïve enough to believe that God actively participates in every aspect of our lives or that death is inherently negative.

This leads me to again believe that you are insincere in your search of spiritual truth.

But you seem focused on "truth" in your reply.

...maybe because you were focused on "truth" in the OP?

Let me ask you this: is "truth" really what you look for, or would you much prefer comfortable assurances?

Truth.

You?

 

[Prestor John]

You're right... you didn't specifically cite nonbelievers with the statement:

That was my poor assumption. My mind equated it with non-belief when I read it... as if to say that nonbelievers don't know "the truth" by default (because believers do - you being a believer, I'd figure this was probably a safe bet), that their qualms with religion are "complaints," and those complaints are directed at people who are "more motivated to discover the truth" because they are directed at believers.

You didn't actually say any of that, so my apologies.

My comment was directed at the person who made the OP.

I don't lump all "nonbelievers" into the same group just as I don't lump together all "believers".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

According to you...

The exact opposite is true actually.

If you had a chance to meet me and see how I have chosen to live my life, then you would see me demonstrating the fact that I have received what I asked for.

Revelation from God does not come at the whim of Man to satisfy their "lust" or curiosity.

God will only answer those who ask with sincerity and real intent (meaning that they are intent on actually acting on the answer they receive) and if it is according to Law and His will.

Even the truly sincere to not receive an answer every time.

This comment could be proof of your lack of sincerity.

You are falsely trying to equate praying to God for answers with making a wish to a genie.

You can't receive answers without a basic understanding, which you would most likely have by now if you were at all sincere in your search for spiritual truth.

Where did God claim that He is an active participant in every single person's death?

Where did God claim that He would deny all of us the opportunity to experience heartache and sorrow?

No.

I am not naïve enough to believe that God actively participates in every aspect of our lives or that death is inherently negative.

This leads me to again believe that you are insincere in your search of spiritual truth.

...maybe because you were focused on "truth" in the OP?

Truth.

You?

Me too -- truth. You provided me dogma, however -- a lot of "what I believe but couldn't demonstrate to anybody else if my life depended on it."

Then you talked about how you've "chosen" to life your life, and state this is evidence that you "got what you asked for." Okay, but since the choice was yours, then the provenance would seem to be yours, too, would it not?

You said:

Revelation from God does not come at the whim of Man to satisfy their "lust" or curiosity.
God will only answer those who ask with sincerity and real intent (meaning that they are intent on actually acting on the answer they receive) and if it is according to Law and His will.
Even the truly sincere to not receive an answer every time.​

Forgive me for saying so, but this is completely self-serving, and makes claims that suggest that you even know "how God works," along with tacit claims that you (in context of your whole post) "ask with sincerity" while I do not.

That is, to put it mildly, claiming quite a lot!

You think that I am not sincere? You think that because I question from a philosophical rather than a received belief standpoint, I am not in search of "truth?" Either spiritual or otherwise? And that my search is not sincere? If you could see the immense body of my writing over the years, you might (I hope) rethink that.
​

 

[Prestor John]

Me too -- truth. You provided me dogma, however -- a lot of "what I believe but couldn't demonstrate to anybody else if my life depended on it."

Then you talked about how you've "chosen" to life your life, and state this is evidence that you "got what you asked for." Okay, but since the choice was yours, then the provenance would seem to be yours, too, would it not?

You said:

Forgive me for saying so, but this is completely self-serving, and makes claims that suggest that you even know "how God works," along with tacit claims that you (in context of your whole post) "ask with sincerity" while I do not.

That is, to put it mildly, claiming quite a lot!

You think that I am not sincere? You think that because I question from a philosophical rather than a received belief standpoint, I am not in search of "truth?" Either spiritual or otherwise? And that my search is not sincere? If you could see the immense body of my writing over the years, you might (I hope) rethink that.
​

I shared teachings from the scriptures and how I applied them to my life.

I would encourage you to also study the scriptures and apply what they teach to your life.

I believe it would enrich your life and provide you the answers you seek.

If that is not sufficient for you, or you somehow consider that to be a personal attack, then tough beans.