the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam

[Monotheist 101]

Fair enough. All the same, I can't help but wonder if there isn't some degree of mistrust or (at least potentially) despisal of kafirs.

Not necessarily from you, or even from most Muslims, but still, we are called transgressors, aren't we?

Your missing the point..the Quran mentions "transgressors" and their doomed faith..it does not give us the authority to decide who that transgressor is..we are repeatedly reminded of the qualities of God..the All Knowing..the possessor of all knowledge.. It's sad that people cant read between the lines and see what is more important...having faith in God and his attributes or proving who is following the right faith or not..

 

[Monotheist 101]

It does, but it also brings more questions.

Go for it...as long as they are not off topic..want to add that I dont mind frubals ..at all

 

[YmirGF]

The issue with accepting Muhammad is a complicated one IMO..I hold the belief that If a person is a true monotheist..there is no way that they will not find guidance or truth in the Quran..The definition of Muslim is one who practices Islam..the definition of Islam is submission to God..accepting Muhammad is not the only way to submit myself to God..it is part of it..but not the whole premise.. Allah says he is aware of the context of a persons life and the condition of their heart..A good person remains good regardless of whether he follows Buddha or Muhammad or Jesus..I believe that Allah will judge everyone accordingly he is a fair judge..if no one else had a chance..that would not be the attributes of a fair judge IMO..

I genuinely appreciate your viewpoint, but at the same time you have to admit that your opinion runs counter to the prevailing opinions of 1400 years of Muslim scholars. Yes, there are some scholars who agree with your sentiments, but they are in the distinct minority.

these are ideas that are fed by leaders of opposing sects denominations to prove that they are the chosen/rightly guided ones..the reality of which is..if they had been rightly guided they would not concern themselves with pity arguments like this...Who cares who the messenger is..did we get the message?

And I would agree, especially with the last part, however, that is not the majority opinion.

IMO a person can be Muslim(One who submits himself to Allah) without accepting Muhammad or the Quran..

But you cannot officially become a Muslim, recognized by other Muslims, without accepting the prophethood of Muhammad.

Say: "Ash-hadu an la ilaha ill Allah." (I bear witness that there is no God but Allah.)

Say: "Wa ash-hadu ana Muhammad ar-rasullallah." (And I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.)

Am I missing something? The message here would seem to be clear enough for a 7 year old child to understand.

what is most important is a concious understanding of the uniqueness and oneness/indivisibility of God.

As you well understand, these words 'oneness/indivisibility' are not meant the same way as in other non-Muslim faiths/doctrines. I was taken back by the Muslim usage of "oneness" after being quite familiar with how the term is meant in both Hinduism and Buddhism, for example. "Oneness" is not used in anywhere near the same sense.

One has to be a theist to be Muslim tho..if you dont believe in a God..why concern yourself with what he has to say?

Simple. I do not accept the existence of god, nor any of the god concepts presently accessible on this small planet. The reason why I have an interest in the subject is because others that I share this small planet with do believe - sometimes quite fanatically.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I genuinely appreciate your viewpoint, but at the same time you have to admit that your opinion runs counter to the prevailing opinions of 1400 years of Muslim scholars. Yes, there are some scholars who agree with your sentiments, but they are in the distinct minority.

And I would agree, especially with the last part, however, that is not the majority opinion.

I honestly donot care what one Muslim apologist says or the other..If it doesnt make sense to me..I have the right to question it. Siding with the majority is always the easy way out..

But you cannot officially become a Muslim, recognized by other Muslims, without accepting the prophethood of Muhammad.

Am I missing something? The message here would seem to be clear enough for a 7 year old child to understand.

I did not say that Muslims will recognize a Jew as a Muslim..What I said was that God is aware of those who hold a pure belief regardless of religion, culture or sect...IMO if a person is converting to Islam merely to be accepted by his peers than the motives are all wrong.. Yes to be a muslim in the eyes of the world you have to accept Muhammad (which I have no issue with, makes perfect sense to me), who is to say that if we were 'recognized" by Muslims that guarantees that we will be recognized as Muslims by God.. I am not at all concerned with what people (muslim or non muslim) say on this matter..this is my personal opinion and I will live by it till my last breath..Concentrating on these concepts further divides us..that is not the purpose of Islam..holding this minority opinion makes me a better person..in my eyes every human being is the same..and should be treated with respect..A muslim on the other hand..I might go out of my way to accomodate..but thats just part of belonging to a group.

As you well understand, these words 'oneness/indivisibility' are not meant the same way as in other non-Muslim faiths/doctrines. I was taken back by the Muslim usage of "oneness" after being quite familiar with how the term is meant in both Hinduism and Buddhism, for example. "Oneness" is not used in anywhere near the same sense.

True let me clarify..the Oneness i refer to is the belief that God the creator is distinct from his creation..he does not manifest himself in any form (be it messengers), he does not have any partners (demi gods/offspring), he creates from nothing..(not the pantheist view of god).. I hope this clarifies..IMO if a person conciously understands and accepts this view of God..he is a muslim..regardless of what label society puts on them..

Simple. I do not accept the existence of god, nor any of the god concepts presently accessible on this small planet. The reason why I have an interest in the subject is because others that I share this small planet with do believe - sometimes quite fanatically.

My boss at work is an atheist..his sole argument against religion is that..it is a way to control the massess and the reason for alot of bloodshed..he almost paints and anti-science view of religion.

My reason for being a theist is simple..I refuse to accept the possibility of this life being it..there has to be more than meets the eye..and there is..I find peace with the Islamic concepts of judgement and ressurection which IMO leads me to live a more morally correct life than I would have, had I been atheist..Im not saying all atheists...rather myself..I know myself..I need the belief that God is watching my every action to stop me from doing immoral acts.. There are alot of reasons why I feel at home with Islam..the most important is the pure monotheism it has to offer..

 

[Tiberius]

Can you eleborate what you mean by unverifiable claims? and why do you think they are unverifiable?

A claim is unverifiable if it cannot be repeated and if we have no way of checking to make sure the claim is accurate.

For example, if I said I had the ability to turn into a squirrel last night, but couldn't do it now, and there was no evidence to support the claim I could turn into a squirrel last night, then the claim is unverifiable.

I think the claims in religious texts are unverifiable because the claims are not made outside those books. Where else, for example, is the claim made that jesus walked on water? Nowhere.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A claim is unverifiable if it cannot be repeated and if we have no way of checking to make sure the claim is accurate.

For example, if I said I had the ability to turn into a squirrel last night, but couldn't do it now, and there was no evidence to support the claim I could turn into a squirrel last night, then the claim is unverifiable.

I think the claims in religious texts are unverifiable because the claims are not made outside those books. Where else, for example, is the claim made that jesus walked on water? Nowhere.

Agreed.

 

[Tiberius]

Agreed.

So, then we are agreed.

A claim made by a religious text is unverifiable.

But you are contradicting yourself. You said:

In any case, without any way to actually TEST the claims being made, why should we believe those claims?

We should not.

So you agree that we should not believe the claims made by a religious text because they are unverifiable.

But you also said:

Is there some way to test whether God (be he the Christian, Muslim, etc variety) prefers one religion over another?

Yes, I think there is. By examining their History, teachings and Books.

So how can you say that an examination of a religious text can tell us nothing because its claims are unverifiable, and then turn around and say that an examination of a religious text's claims can show which religion God prefers? Like I said, you are contradicting yourself.

 

[Redemptionsong]

According to God's Word, religion (the following of law) does not provide a person with the keys to God's kingdom. Only faith in the Saviour provides salvation.

 

[gnostic]

excuse me, but i don't mean to say that my understanding is better than him, i just want to say that i read the quran without translation i read it in the original language, so it's not affected by the human errors, and so in the arabic quran it's written ISLAM not what he meant submission 'ISTISLAM" in arabic that's my point

the Qur'an is filled with human wisdom and with human errors, because they were written by humans. the Quran wasn't written by any invisible being, called god or Allah. it is no more divine than the bible.

it doesn't matter what language it is written in, Arabic is still human language.

as to the questions in the OP, yes, it is a matter of interpretations. the whole Quran is written in verses, and verses can have any number of interpretations, and verses tends to be written in ambiguous manners...especially when it is written in metaphorical or symbolic ways.

the very fact that one Muslim can disagree with another Muslim over any verse, just demonstrate that there can be different interpretation, even when they can read the Quran in its original language. And that because the way the verses in Quran is not always written in literal or unambiguous manners.

 

[Pegg]

How do you interprete this verse?

"Verily the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam." [Quran 3:19]

The point is to know what "the Author" of Quran meant.

Do you think that the Author of Quran, by Islam, He meant the Revelation that came to Muhammad, or He meant submission to God?


My position is that it should be interpreted this way:

"Verily the only acceptable religion to Allah is Submission to the God's commands."

and my reason is, in other verses, people who lived before Muhammad, were also called "Muslims", for example see Quran 7:126

and since, those who were called "Muslims" were not Muslims by name (as they even didn't speak Arabic), but by actions were submitters to God, then it follows that, by Islam, the Author of Quran meant "submission" and not just a name.

If you think, differently, please provide your point and support with verses of Quran, and Authentic Hadithes.

P.S. Please not that this thread is not to discuss whether Quran is from God or not, or if Islam is a good religion or not. It is only about interpretation, and what the Author of Quran meant regarding this verse.

I agree with that interpretation... not that i know anything about arabic language... but in the sense that Islam means 'submission', then it makes sense... besides, we can see other references in the Quran that the religions of Jews and Christians are from God and therefore not condemned as false.

So it would be a contradiction in the quran if it was actually saying that only the Muslim faith was acceptable to God when it also says that the faith of Christians and Jews is also acceptable to him.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus didn't come to bring more religion! That's why it's very odd that a Muslim should claim that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets. How can Muhammad's prophecy add anything new when the law had already been fulfilled in Christ?

 

[Union]

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus didn't come to bring more religion! That's why it's very odd that a Muslim should claim that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets. How can Muhammad's prophecy add anything new when the law had already been fulfilled in Christ?

Prophet Muhammad's message was for the entire world not for Jews only - hence his mission was way more versatile and broad than Jewish Jesus .

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, Union, I'm a Gentile saved by Jesus!
The message of the Bible begins with the words, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' and in the last book of the New Testament it says, 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'
Encapsulated within the covers of the Bible is a complete story of the heaven and earth to which we belong. It tells the whole story of God's dealings with mankind.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Muhammad is not mentioned in that record, if his position is so important?
Why should people be encouraged back to a system of law when the Messiah has come into the world to complete the law and offer a new testament in the spirit?

I really have no axe to grind. I searched for truth and found Jesus. I wasn't born a Christian! I don't think it's possible to be born into faith in Jesus Christ. You have to be 'born again'.
IMO, everything fits together beautifully!

 

[seeking4truth]

I think only God can judge.

There are many 'Muslims' as we see on the news every day who have little understanding of 'peace, through submission to God'

On the other hand there are many, many who do not know the truth about the religion taught by the Prophet Muhammad and yet behave in a way that is completely in accordance with the way of God.

The Holy Quran repeatedly says that belief alone is not enough. It is belief combined with 'doing good/good works' that are of benefit. He alone knows what we have been taught and what are our capacities for understanding.

I'm happy to let God judge who understands and benefits from all His guidance. We do not have that right.

 

[Union]

Well, Union, I'm a Gentile saved by Jesus!
The message of the Bible begins with the words, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' and in the last book of the New Testament it says, 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'
Encapsulated within the covers of the Bible is a complete story of the heaven and earth to which we belong. It tells the whole story of God's dealings with mankind.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Muhammad is not mentioned in that record, if his position is so important?
Why should people be encouraged back to a system of law when the Messiah has come into the world to complete the law and offer a new testament in the spirit?

I really have no axe to grind. I searched for truth and found Jesus. I wasn't born a Christian! I don't think it's possible to be born into faith in Jesus Christ. You have to be 'born again'.
IMO, everything fits together beautifully!

Good for you , may be .

I really don't want to turn to a sissy by following 'If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them '[Luke6:29] , rather I like to establish myself like a man by following ' You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.'[2:193]

Even all the Christians states and state-governments found Qur'an's teaching practical and fruitful in maintaining a balance society , not NT's teaching .

Think my friend - not with emotion but with rationality .

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ok, so now we get to the root of the matter.
Jesus is a 'sissy' because he forgives people of their sins, and withholds judgement until the time of judgement.

Have justice and law gone away? No. Christian states, as governing authorities, do not work according to love but according to law. The basic principles underlying the law are the Ten Commandments found in the law of Moses. In other words, there is no such thing as a Christian state. All states have to implement forms of justice. The best they can do to encourage the search for truth is to safeguard individual freedoms, which is why democracy works in those societies where Christian beliefs are strong.

But for an individual to be saved they must do more than a few good works. In fact, to please God, perfection is required. Jesus once said, 'Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'
Well, I am happy to admit failure. Which is why I turn to Christ.

In my opinion, it takes a real man not to resort to the natural impulses of the flesh. Violence is the natural response of the flesh. Paul says, 'For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds' (2 Corinthians 10: 3,4)

By focusing on law, you have confirmed the fact that Islam is a religion of law, and has not yet attained the perfection found in Jesus Christ.

I accept that without the saving grace of Jesus Christ I am doomed. There is no way that I can attain perfection under the law.

 

[Union]

Ok, so now we get to the root of the matter.
Jesus is a 'sissy' because he forgives people of their sins, and withholds judgement until the time of judgement.

Have justice and law gone away? No. Christian states, as governing authorities, do not work according to love but according to law. The basic principles underlying the law are the Ten Commandments found in the law of Moses. In other words, there is no such thing as a Christian state. All states have to implement forms of justice. The best they can do to encourage the search for truth is to safeguard individual freedoms, which is why democracy works in those societies where Christian beliefs are strong.

But for an individual to be saved they must do more than a few good works. In fact, to please God, perfection is required. Jesus once said, 'Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'
Well, I am happy to admit failure. Which is why I turn to Christ.

In my opinion, it takes a real man not to resort to the natural impulses of the flesh. Violence is the natural response of the flesh. Paul says, 'For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds' (2 Corinthians 10: 3,4)

By focusing on law, you have confirmed the fact that Islam is a religion of law, and has not yet attained the perfection found in Jesus Christ.

I accept that without the saving grace of Jesus Christ I am doomed. There is no way that I can attain perfection under the law.

Faith and law make a complete code of life - which Qur'an offers .

Qur'an offers faith in Almighty GOD through Adam to Muhammad , including Jesus , teaches laws of Almighty GOD through Adam to Muhammad , including Jesus again . Hence it is a total package of life , perfected with extracts of those great Prophets and messengers .

You realized the fact that in reality NT has no value in governing human life , the teachings of Jesus apart from that 'sissy' type things , as below , are impractical and impossible . If Christians would have started to follow those Jesus' rule 2000 years back , today there wouldn't be a single Christian stands alive instead some billions .

Mark 09 >>

43 AND IF YOUR HAND OFFENDS YOU, CUT IT OFF. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 AND IF YOUR FOOT OFFENDS YOU, CUT IT OFF. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 AND IF YOUR EYE OFFENDS YOU, PLUCK IT OUT. It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes to be cast into hell fire
48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Matthew 05 >>

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I SAY TO YOU THAT IF YOU ARE ANGRY WITH A BROTHER OR SISTER, YOU WILL BE LIABLE TO JUDGMENT; AND IF YOU INSULT A BROTHER OR SISTER, YOU WILL BE LIABLE TO THE COUNCIL; AND IF YOU SAY, 'YOU FOOL,' YOU WILL BE LIABLE TO THE HELL OF FIRE. [Obscurely Jesus said, "You fool…". in Lk.12:20; Mt.23:17.]

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 BUT I SAY TO YOU THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS AT A WOMAN WITH LUST HAS ALREADY COMMITTED ADULTERY WITH HER IN HIS HEART. 29 IF YOUR RIGHT EYE CAUSES YOU TO SIN, TEAR IT OUT AND THROW IT AWAY; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 AND IF YOUR RIGHT HAND CAUSES YOU TO SIN, CUT IT OFF AND THROW IT AWAY; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.
….
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 BUT I SAY TO YOU, DO NOT RESIST AN EVILDOER. BUT IF ANYONE STRIKES YOU ON THE RIGHT CHEEK, TURN THE OTHER ALSO; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
….”

Mark 07

9 And He said to them, Do you do well to set aside the commandment of God, so that you may keep your own tradition?
10 For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother." And, "WHOEVER CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH."

 

[Redemptionsong]

I guess I could easily have chosen to reject Jesus as Saviour. The law of Moses is thorough and practical. It teaches me what is right and what is wrong. It defines every moment of every day.

Islam is also a religion of law. Why are the laws of Islam any better than those of Moses? What have they added that makes better sense of life?

You say you want a world of justice where men receive the just rewards for their deeds. We all want that. The trouble is we are not perfect judges. When a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery was dragged before Jesus, he accepted that she should die according to the law. He also wanted to know who, amongst the crowd, was sinless and able to cast the first stone.

What makes you so sure that you can judge others without condemning yourself?

By offering forgiveness, one is postponing the judgement for people who will ultimately face the sinless judge - Jesus Christ. His judgement, as God, will separate the sheep from the goats.

I read the news of the factions at war in Syria and Iraq, and I see zealous Muslims of different factions keen to impose shariah law on others. Is this the justice you want to see?

Mark 9, tells you what you should be doing to YOURSELF, not others.

Matthew 5 tells you what the law of Moses says, and then what one has to do to FULFIL the law.

Mark 7 - Jesus tells the Jews that they make the law of 'none effect through your tradition'. The Jews are not even able to keep their own laws.

Have YOU kept every law? Have you never missed a prayer time? Have you never done wrong?
If the answer is 'Yes, I have done wrong', then why should Allah forgive? If Allah is really perfect he won't want to be polluted by the presence of your sinfulness.

If you live by the law, then you should expect to be judged by the letter of the law.



The kingdom of God already exists, and is made up of men and women who have placed their trust in Jesus.

 

[The Adept]

How do you interprete this verse?

"Verily the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam." [Quran 3:19]

The point is to know what "the Author" of Quran meant...

It is a circular argument or pun.

And the only acceptable religion to Vishnu is...?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You say, Faith and law makes a complete code of life - which Qur'an offers.

I say, Faith and law makes just another religion - which Islam offers.