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the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pastek, I don't see how Paul can be ignored if you want to know the truth about Jesus. The responsibility for taking the Gospel to the Gentiles fell to Paul. This was all part of the revealed word declaring that salvation was for all mankind, not just the Jews.
Nor do I think one can extract portions of scripture when they clearly form part of the tapestry of divine revelation.
Why do you not recognize Paul?
Nor do I think one can extract portions of scripture when they clearly form part of the tapestry of divine revelation.
Why do you not recognize Paul?
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think he meant for Muslims as he has cited. Paul is important for Muslims he says.
Muslims wouldn't like Paul because of the theology he taught. Muslims reject the crucifixion, atonement and Christianity's entire ideas about salvation. Their idea of Jesus is very different from what Christians believe about Him.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Of course.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
How can i learn the truth from someone who never met Jesus but yet wrote half of the New Testament ?
The truth is first from God, then the prophets, then the disciples who knew the prophets.
PAUL
Rom. 2-13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous
Gal. 3-11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because the righteous will live by faith.
Ok ....
JESUS
Matt.5-19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Which teachings are you following ?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pastek, Paul was as close to Jesus as any man can get, simply because the spirit of Christ was within him. This baptism is recorded in Acts 9:17; 'And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.'
This confirms the report that Paul had heard the voice of Jesus on the road to Damascus, at the time he was blinded. It also confirms the fact that Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit and therefore had an intimate knowledge of the spirit that dwelt in Christ.
Just because Paul never met Jesus in the flesh does not mean that he did not know Jesus . If God calls a man to be an apostle, as Paul clearly was, then he gives him a status above the prophets. As Jesus himself said, 'Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.' (Luke 7:28) So Paul must have been greater than the prophets in the sight of God.
There is certainly no incompatibility between the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul.
The law is set down in the Torah, where God commands that not one word should be changed. Jesus repeats this command, saying that the law is good and not one word should be changed. He also says that whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Now look carefully at what Jesus says. He says 'in the kingdom of heaven'. This kingdom only becomes a reality following the resurrection of Christ and his enthronement in heaven!
Galatians 3:11-14
'But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'
So, Paul is saying that it is faith that justifies a man, because through faith the Spirit of Christ is received, and it is this Spirit that fulfils the law! A man trying to be perfect under the law will fail if he does not have the Spirit of God.
As Paul says later in Galatians, 'Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.' (Galatians 3:24)
This confirms the report that Paul had heard the voice of Jesus on the road to Damascus, at the time he was blinded. It also confirms the fact that Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit and therefore had an intimate knowledge of the spirit that dwelt in Christ.
Just because Paul never met Jesus in the flesh does not mean that he did not know Jesus . If God calls a man to be an apostle, as Paul clearly was, then he gives him a status above the prophets. As Jesus himself said, 'Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.' (Luke 7:28) So Paul must have been greater than the prophets in the sight of God.
There is certainly no incompatibility between the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul.
The law is set down in the Torah, where God commands that not one word should be changed. Jesus repeats this command, saying that the law is good and not one word should be changed. He also says that whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Now look carefully at what Jesus says. He says 'in the kingdom of heaven'. This kingdom only becomes a reality following the resurrection of Christ and his enthronement in heaven!
Galatians 3:11-14
'But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'
So, Paul is saying that it is faith that justifies a man, because through faith the Spirit of Christ is received, and it is this Spirit that fulfils the law! A man trying to be perfect under the law will fail if he does not have the Spirit of God.
As Paul says later in Galatians, 'Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.' (Galatians 3:24)
Pastek
Sunni muslim
Were did you get that from ?
All those things were never teached by Jesus nor by any prophets before.
islam is an arabic word which comes from the route words 'peace and 'submiting your will to god'! so to say that 'the only religion acceptable is isla' and 'the only religion acceptable is to submit your will to god have no difference! ne is in arabic, the other in english! and prophet muhammed is THE LAST AND FINAL messenger of god! all the people before muhammed, even tho they were not arab, were islam (they submit their will to god) so i dont see the point of this question!
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pastek,
I quoted the words of Jesus to show that he believed the greatest of the prophets was John the Baptist. The quotation also shows that 'he that is least in the kingdom of God' IS greater than the greatest of the prophets! Since apostles were Holy Spirit filled believers called by Jesus to take the Gospel into all the world, I conclude that an apostle is greater than a prophet. I get that from Luke 7:28.
Also to say that faith was not taught as the means of justification is incorrect. Habakkuk (2:4) is the prophet from which these words are taken. They are also confirmed in Hebrews 11, where Paul lists many of the Old Testament elders who through faith 'gained a good report' yet 'received not the promise' (verse 38)' God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect'.
In other words, the elders of the Old Testament did not have the promised Holy Spirit, which in community forms the body of Christ. The prophets looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, and the Messiah (Jesus) inaugurates the kingdom of God on Earth. But this kingdom does not begin until Jesus Christ has died, been resurrected, and has ascended to heaven. Jesus then sends the Holy Spirit to form his body on earth.
I quoted the words of Jesus to show that he believed the greatest of the prophets was John the Baptist. The quotation also shows that 'he that is least in the kingdom of God' IS greater than the greatest of the prophets! Since apostles were Holy Spirit filled believers called by Jesus to take the Gospel into all the world, I conclude that an apostle is greater than a prophet. I get that from Luke 7:28.
Also to say that faith was not taught as the means of justification is incorrect. Habakkuk (2:4) is the prophet from which these words are taken. They are also confirmed in Hebrews 11, where Paul lists many of the Old Testament elders who through faith 'gained a good report' yet 'received not the promise' (verse 38)' God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect'.
In other words, the elders of the Old Testament did not have the promised Holy Spirit, which in community forms the body of Christ. The prophets looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, and the Messiah (Jesus) inaugurates the kingdom of God on Earth. But this kingdom does not begin until Jesus Christ has died, been resurrected, and has ascended to heaven. Jesus then sends the Holy Spirit to form his body on earth.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
I also quoted Jesus when he said : Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. (not the disciples )
So i don't think that Luke 7:28 is about Paul.
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. (not the disciples )
So i don't think that Luke 7:28 is about Paul.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus is talking to Jews during his ministry on earth. The law is to be followed just as it is laid down in the Torah. That is quite right.
Now let's consider the kingdom of God. This kingdom requires a king to become a reality. Jesus appears on the scene and starts to preach the coming kingdom. People listen to Jesus and watch him perform miracles. Some start to believe that he might be the Messiah, others reject him. Then Jesus is crucified, and for some he is a failed Messiah, but others see him raised to life and recall the sign above his cross, 'King of the Jews'. The faithful recognize Jesus for who he really is - the MESSIAH. When they pray together at Pentecost the Holy Spirit is given and the church emerges.
The body of Christ now awaits the return of the Messiah, this time in his glory as King of Kings and Judge, and not as a Servant to save.
Now let's consider the kingdom of God. This kingdom requires a king to become a reality. Jesus appears on the scene and starts to preach the coming kingdom. People listen to Jesus and watch him perform miracles. Some start to believe that he might be the Messiah, others reject him. Then Jesus is crucified, and for some he is a failed Messiah, but others see him raised to life and recall the sign above his cross, 'King of the Jews'. The faithful recognize Jesus for who he really is - the MESSIAH. When they pray together at Pentecost the Holy Spirit is given and the church emerges.
The body of Christ now awaits the return of the Messiah, this time in his glory as King of Kings and Judge, and not as a Servant to save.
Not above God. Christians believe that Jesus is God.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pastek,
I'm not placing Jesus above God.
Christians believe that there is only one God. It states this unequivocally in Deuteronomy 6:4. Elsewhere it states that God is spirit, and God is invisible.
What you believe about Jesus is a matter of faith.
You may believe he never really existed. This does, however, go against good historical evidence.
You may believe he lived as an ordinary man, with human failings, and that the stories of his miracles and resurrection are myth. This goes against the testimony of those who encountered Jesus.
You may believe that he was a human being with the Spirit of God indwelling. This is also a statement of faith. This is what the New Testament teaches.
Finally, you may believe that he was crucified, that he died, and that he was then raised to heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father. His throne is then heavenly, and the position he holds is that of God. He is the Word of God and through him all that is created was created. It is then from the Father and Son that the Holy Spirit comes. All three are the Spirit of God. This is also what the Bible teaches.
I'm not placing Jesus above God.
Christians believe that there is only one God. It states this unequivocally in Deuteronomy 6:4. Elsewhere it states that God is spirit, and God is invisible.
What you believe about Jesus is a matter of faith.
You may believe he never really existed. This does, however, go against good historical evidence.
You may believe he lived as an ordinary man, with human failings, and that the stories of his miracles and resurrection are myth. This goes against the testimony of those who encountered Jesus.
You may believe that he was a human being with the Spirit of God indwelling. This is also a statement of faith. This is what the New Testament teaches.
Finally, you may believe that he was crucified, that he died, and that he was then raised to heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father. His throne is then heavenly, and the position he holds is that of God. He is the Word of God and through him all that is created was created. It is then from the Father and Son that the Holy Spirit comes. All three are the Spirit of God. This is also what the Bible teaches.
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Pastek
Sunni muslim
Not all christians. Some believe he is the son, some an angel, some a human, some aren't even sure he existed ...
Its great that you talk about the Old Testament, because you can see that Jesus is completly different with the God described in it. So i don't know how you can reconcile the two.
Can you give me the references from the Bible, please ?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
It's easy to reconcile the Old and New Testaments, or covenants, when one recognizes that the law is to do with the outward man, and grace with the inward man.
Law is about justice in society, about distinguishing between right and wrong, and about boundaries to behaviour. It's intended as way of keeping people safe, especially when immorality and sin threatens to destroy society.
Grace is the indwelling spirit of love. It's the living spirit of God, given by Jesus Christ, guiding an individual into truth. The spirit binds people together as one.
In the New Testament it says that the Old Testament is like a teacher, leading us to what is new. You could say that the Old Testament is EARTHLY and the New Testament HEAVENLY because the righteous types or characters of the EARTH find their fulfilment in the perfect man, the Son of God and Messiah - Jesus Christ.
Law is about justice in society, about distinguishing between right and wrong, and about boundaries to behaviour. It's intended as way of keeping people safe, especially when immorality and sin threatens to destroy society.
Grace is the indwelling spirit of love. It's the living spirit of God, given by Jesus Christ, guiding an individual into truth. The spirit binds people together as one.
In the New Testament it says that the Old Testament is like a teacher, leading us to what is new. You could say that the Old Testament is EARTHLY and the New Testament HEAVENLY because the righteous types or characters of the EARTH find their fulfilment in the perfect man, the Son of God and Messiah - Jesus Christ.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
I think it's too theoretical, too vague.
Is it what really said Jesus or your own interpretation ?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Here is what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit being sent from the Father and Son:
Luke 11:12, ' If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 15:26, ' But when the Comforter is come, whom I shall send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'
John 16:7, ' Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.'
In John 16:13 it also says, 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: he will show you things to come.'
On the issue of the Old Testament being a transition to the New, Romans 15:5,6 says, 'For whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Jesus Christ: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
The indwelling Holy Spirit is NOT vague to those who have experienced the baptism of Jesus. The reality is powerful and life-changing, as accounts in the Acts of the Apostles and elsewhere testify. Speak to born again believers today and they will say the same.
The Spirit of God unites believers, as it says, 'And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.' (1 John 3:23,24)
Or, as it says in Ephesians 4:4-5, 'There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'
Luke 11:12, ' If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 15:26, ' But when the Comforter is come, whom I shall send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'
John 16:7, ' Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.'
In John 16:13 it also says, 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: he will show you things to come.'
On the issue of the Old Testament being a transition to the New, Romans 15:5,6 says, 'For whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Jesus Christ: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
The indwelling Holy Spirit is NOT vague to those who have experienced the baptism of Jesus. The reality is powerful and life-changing, as accounts in the Acts of the Apostles and elsewhere testify. Speak to born again believers today and they will say the same.
The Spirit of God unites believers, as it says, 'And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.' (1 John 3:23,24)
Or, as it says in Ephesians 4:4-5, 'There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
As regards the SPIRIT OF GOD being Father, Son and Holy Spirit, here are some supporting scriptures.
Father: 'For it is the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.' (Matthew 10:20)
Son: 'And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.' (Galatians 4:6)
Holy Spirit: 'And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.' (Acts 2:4)
These passages clearly show that it is the SAME SPIRIT that exists as the Father, the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit.
Father: 'For it is the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.' (Matthew 10:20)
Son: 'And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.' (Galatians 4:6)
Holy Spirit: 'And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.' (Acts 2:4)
These passages clearly show that it is the SAME SPIRIT that exists as the Father, the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit.
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