Holocaust deniers!!!

[Sunstone]

To anybody, if there is anything wrong with the information that I did post, I'd be happy for you to correct me and I'll edit any facts that are wrong. If I haven't heard anything, then I'm going to assume you only have a problem with my opinion and not any actual information that I posted.

Well, I do have one wee little problem. I think the grounds on which you "reason" that anyone who is anti-Zionist is most likely to be a Holocaust denier are tenuous and insufficient at best. You seem to have really been reaching there. Are you having a bad day?

I would also greatly appreciate it if you would go through your posts and edit out the parts where you attempt to take the thread off topic by shifting the discussion from the nature of holocaust denial to the intentions of the original poster. Is that asking too much?

 

[Luminous]

"must be" no; "is more likely to be" yes
United*In*Mind's question is simple and appropriet.
It is to see the reasons behind asking such a question and whether or not TashaN wished to use such a question to manipulate the meaning of Holocaust Denier. Though i'm sure all she is trying to do is see what the responce would be is she were to call herself a holocaust denier. or to correct peoples on the thoughts of people who call themselves holocaust deniers. Though such trickeries have been done by TashaN in "these Dogs, we had to shoot them all" there is no reason to get all uppity on Surprise Plastic Watermelons (or me) for being suspicious of TashaN's motives. TashaN doesn't even have to answer if she doesn't feel like it.

Now back to topic.
TashaN - What do you consider to be a "holocaust denier"?

 

[Sunstone]

"must be" no; "is more likely to be" yes

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[Surprise Plastic Watermelons]

it looks like you're making it personal with TashaN. i think it is better to stay on topic.
.

.lava

I'm not trying to make it personal with TashaN at all. I do not even know the man, so how could I make it personal? I'm just trying to figure out where TashaN is coming from and his intentions. Like I cited before, I've had experience with people who are anti-Zionist (as TashaN claims) who were Holocaust Deniers, so from a personal standpoint, I'm trying to figure out how to proceed.

Let me make an analogy. If you met someone who claimed to exhibit some signs that other atheists exhibited, you would wonder where they are going with a subject or why they are pursuing a certain branch of interest and/or talk.

.lava, my interactions were pure and not to harm nor to defame anyone's character or name. This was not my intentions at all.

You understand?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

When you do a physics experiment in a laboratory, there are ALWAYS unexplained observations and inconsistencies. In statistics such data are called "outliers". When we are talking about human events, which are far more complex and totally uncontrolled, there will be even more inconsistencies and unexplained things.

Holocaust denial--like evolution denial, Moon-landing denial, theories about alien abductions--is fundamentally about emphasizing those outliers, while ignoring the rest of the mountains of evidence which all independently converge on the same basic conclusions. Holocaust denial is popular among white-supremacists and antisemites everywhere, for obvious reasons....it follows the same pattern of hundreds of years of antisemitism. Skeptic magazine occasionally covers the issue. Skeptic: Home: The Skeptics Society & Skeptic magazine

 

[Luminous]

Ok Slowpoke; i think that's too much. There are Rules in these forums.

 

[Surprise Plastic Watermelons]

United*In*Mind's question is simple and appropriet.

It's Surprise Plastic Watermelons now. Or SPW.

Though such trickeries have been done by TashaN in "these Dogs, we had to shoot them all" there is no reason to get all uppity on Surprise Plastic Watermelons (or me) for being suspicious of TashaN's motives.

:clap

TashaN doesn't even have to answer if she doesn't feel like it.

Exactly. It's not like anyone can force anyone to do anything on an internet forum, this isn't a dictatorship, though some people may want certain places on the internet to be. :lol:

Now back to topic.
TashaN - What do you consider to be a "holocaust denier"?

Exactly, where I was trying to put the subject of the thread in posts #23, #24, and #25. There was something that I addressed towards TashaN, then I went on to answer and address some other comments about things that TashaN had mentioned. I even quoted bits that TashaN had posted in order to correctly quote what he had said.

 

[.lava]

.lava

I'm not trying to make it personal with TashaN at all. I do not even know the man, so how could I make it personal? I'm just trying to figure out where TashaN is coming from and his intentions. Like I cited before, I've had experience with people who are anti-Zionist (as TashaN claims) who were Holocaust Deniers, so from a personal standpoint, I'm trying to figure out how to proceed.

OK, but why are you doing it in public? by doing it public, you're inviting others to judge him as well. i do not think it is your right to target people. you can disagree with him which is fine. so if you want you can have one on one debate with him about zionism (if he agress too) or you can start a thread about zionism to tell how you define it.

Let me make an analogy. If you met someone who claimed to exhibit some signs that other atheists exhibited, you would wonder where they are going with a subject or why they are pursuing a certain branch of interest and/or talk.

.lava, my interactions were pure and not to harm nor to defame anyone's character or name. This was not my intentions at all.

You understand?

i am trying to understand. i tend to believe what people say on forums. i depend on their words. i would not know more than what they say but i may assume. i might judge but not to punish or to call them to account. if i lose my confidence in someone and realize he is sneaky liar then i would not have conversation with him, at least not in the way i do with people i trust. but all of these calculations remain within me. other people do not have to see in the way i do.

.

 

[Sunstone]

United*In*Mind's question is simple and appropriet.

I disagree, Luminous. In my opinion, Surprise Plastic Watermelon's questions are off-topic and apparently calculated to turn the discussion in this thread into a debate over the character and/or intentions of the original poster. I think that's obvious.

It is to see the reasons behind asking such a question and whether or not TashaN wished to use such a question to manipulate the meaning of Holocaust Denier.

Your statement is a blatant admission of all that I have just stated above. Thank you for your frankness and honesty.

Though such trickeries have been done by TashaN....

Luminous, you are making an unsubstantiated claim there. Either back it up with cites or withdraw it.

....there is no reason to get all uppity on Surprise Plastic Watermelons (or me) for being suspicious of TashaN's motives.

Obviously, you are either out of the loop or blinded by partisanship. Your statement above is once again evidence that you wish to divert the discussion in this thread from the original topic to one that suits your agenda. That, sir, is an amazing confession. But thank you for you frankness and honesty.

 

[YmirGF]

What is the impression you get when you first hear or read that someone is a holocaust denier?

My first thought is that the person is very insecure and has an agenda to fill some deep-seated need that was not addressed in their childhood.

That someone is ...

1- claiming that the Nazis didn't kill ANY Jew?
Nope. They generally state that the numbers are wildly inflated however.

2- merely *questioning* the number of people who been killed?
Merely questioning? As others have pointed out it is one of the most documented cases in history, so there isn't much to base rational "questioning" on, so that fuels suspicion of an agenda.

3- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?
Nope, though the general gist is that perhaps they should have been used more often.

4- claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred?
Nope. It is pretty clear that such a campaign existed, so it would be fruitless to point to that. Personally, I have never heard that one, myself.

5- all the above.
Not really. It is more representative of sloppy thinking than sincere scholarship.

6- others?
An agenda to discredit all things Jewish, does come to mind, not that Muslims would know anything about that.

 

[Luminous]

TashaN - What do you consider to be a "holocaust denier"?

Nevermind: i found something:

When someone is accused of being a holocaust denier, many people (most?) get the impression that this person is denying that Jews been killed in the hand of Nazis. Plain and simple.

I guess its just to see if people think a holocaust denier is someone who denies any jews were killed. right now looks like 42% do. wow, i think that is too much. all of the above is 60%. wow.

 

[Surprise Plastic Watermelons]

OK, but why are you doing it in public?

Because that is where TashaN posted and that is where his information is posted. Where else do you think I would go to get it?

by doing it public, you're inviting others to judge him as well.

Only if they want to. They can make whatever judgment they wish, I have not asked a single person to judge TashaN. Not one.

i do not think it is your right to target people.

Nor do I .lava, nor do I. Since I'm not targeting anyone, I fail to see how this is correct in addressing towards me.

you can disagree with him which is fine.

Currently, I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with him. My intent (as stated several times) is to understand where TashaN is coming from and why. As stated before, I've had experiences that link the two (anti-Zionism and Holocaust Deniers) together. Like I've also stated, I'm addressing this so I do not mislabel or misunderstand TashaN.

It's actually quite simple, yet some people here fail to understand that.

so if you want you can have one on one debate with him about zionism (if he agress too) or you can start a thread about zionism to tell how you define it.

It's not about Zionism. It's about Holocaust Denial.

i am trying to understand.

Then understand this .lava.

I am not trying to defame, nor hurt anyone, I'm trying to find the connection (if there is any) or why he (TashaN) posted such a thing. I have no use to take TashaN on in a debate about Zionism, because I do not wish to debate Zionism.

Again, it's about the connection I've seen in the past, and as none of you are TashaN, you cannot speak for him. I am simply trying to see where this thread is going, why an anti-Zionist would speak about it and see what happens next.

Some people read conspiracy and threat where it is not.

 

[Luminous]

well, to me the holocaust was the deliberate campaigne to destroy non-Aryans. so a Holocaust denier would fundamentally deny at least that and work their way up from there.
what does holocaust mean anyway?

 

[.lava]

I am not trying to defame, nor hurt anyone, I'm trying to find the connection (if there is any) or why he (TashaN) posted such a thing. I have no use to take TashaN on in a debate about Zionism, because I do not wish to debate Zionism.

Again, it's about the connection I've seen in the past, and as none of you are TashaN, you cannot speak for him. I am simply trying to see where this thread is going, why an anti-Zionist would speak about it and see what happens next.

Some people read conspiracy and threat where it is not.

OK, Surprise Plastic Watermelons i have no problem with your attitude. you're right, TashaN is the only authority to answer your questions and i believe he would honestly tell what he thinks when he stops by.

you sound friendly to me, so no worries

.

 

[Sunstone]

Because that is where TashaN posted and that is where his information is posted. Where else do you think I would go to get it?



Only if they want to. They can make whatever judgment they wish, I have not asked a single person to judge TashaN. Not one.



Nor do I .lava, nor do I. Since I'm not targeting anyone, I fail to see how this is correct in addressing towards me.



Currently, I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with him. My intent (as stated several times) is to understand where TashaN is coming from and why. As stated before, I've had experiences that link the two (anti-Zionism and Holocaust Deniers) together. Like I've also stated, I'm addressing this so I do not mislabel or misunderstand TashaN.

It's actually quite simple, yet some people here fail to understand that.



It's not about Zionism. It's about Holocaust Denial.



Then understand this .lava.

I am not trying to defame, nor hurt anyone, I'm trying to find the connection (if there is any) or why he (TashaN) posted such a thing. I have no use to take TashaN on in a debate about Zionism, because I do not wish to debate Zionism.

Again, it's about the connection I've seen in the past, and as none of you are TashaN, you cannot speak for him. I am simply trying to see where this thread is going, why an anti-Zionist would speak about it and see what happens next.

Some people read conspiracy and threat where it is not.

Your words are sweet but they fail to address the issue. At issue is whether you are within your rights to try to turn this discussion away from the original topic and make it a discussion about the motives, character, and/or intentions of the original poster? I do not believe you are within your rights to do that. No one else would be. Why should you be an exception, Becky?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

all of the above is 60%. wow.

I voted "all of the above" not to mean all of them simultaneously, but to mean that any of them can be part of Holocaust Denial, or "Holocaust Revisionism".

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actually, I don't think any of the options for voting accurately define Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The important thing to understand about the movement is that it does not do justice to the evidence and the facts; it is a pseudo-historical movement, analogous to the pseudo-scientific movement that denies biological evolution. It doesn't seek out all the facts, and form conclusions from them; instead it has a bunch of ideological/religious/racial conclusions, and seeks out facts to support those conclusions and ignore the rest.

 

[Sunstone]

Actually, I don't think any of the options for voting accurately define Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The important thing to understand about the movement is that it does not do justice to the evidence and the facts; it is a pseudo-historical movement, analogous to the pseudo-scientific movement that denies biological evolution. It doesn't seek out all the facts, and form conclusions from them; instead it has a bunch of ideological/religious/racial conclusions, and seeks out facts to support those conclusions and ignore the rest.

I'm in complete agreement with Spink's analysis.

 

[kai]

Actually, I don't think any of the options for voting accurately define Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The important thing to understand about the movement is that it does not do justice to the evidence and the facts; it is a pseudo-historical movement, analogous to the pseudo-scientific movement that denies biological evolution. It doesn't seek out all the facts, and form conclusions from them; instead it has a bunch of ideological/religious/racial conclusions, and seeks out facts to support those conclusions and ignore the rest.

exactly

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I also want to point out that the issue of Holocaust Denial is different from the issue of laws that exist, in Europe and other countries, which make it illegal to deny the Holocaust. (It is also illegal in most of those countries to display Nazi symbols, etc...understandable given the nightmare that was the Holocaust, Nazi aggression and occupation.)

Personally I am in favor of free speech, even for crackpots and antisemites.