Holocaust deniers!!!

[TashaN]

2- is questioning the number of people who been killed? 48%

4- claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred? 51%

This is an interesting figure indeed. Thank you all for participating in the poll and helping me proceed with this discussion.

Now what i would like to know is, how is questioning the number of those who been killed considered to be a holocaust denial?

If someone took a scientific approach to prove that they were less than 6 million for instance, how is that a holocaust denial?

By the way, can someone please help me by giving me some unbiased links which talk about holocaust denial?

I noticed that wiki page regarding this matter is clearly poor.

 

[England my lionheart]

This is interesting but you will find it difficult to find unbiased opinion
Holocaust Deniers Anoint Iran's Ahmadinejad - December 12, 2006 - The New York Sun

 

[wmam]

Unbiased? That would be nice. I hope you find that. If you do could you please forward on to the rest of us. i have beeb trying here for the past few days to research the holocaust and everything I have seen thus far has all been very biased. I'm still looking though.

 

[sindbad5]

everytime this subject is opened, it turned out to be messy as if "it's better to close that door, a strong wind coming from it", it smells like kinda of terrorizing others who dare.

back to the topic, what i think is that nazis targeted many nations and groups of people including and not only jews, if chinese or arabs where their at that time, they will be targeted also, it's a racist ideology.

but wait a minute here, people also have the rights to discuss the history, right?
it's history, not a holy book, even holy books found who deny it freely.

another thing, about zionism, i'm not anti-jews in anyway, but certainly i'm anti-zionism, and anybody who see the results of this racist movement will realize it's not different than nazi.

mixing between jews suffereings in WWII and zionism who established israel on flesh and blood of others is and will be on the long run very harmful to jews.

it's just 60 years past, and there are who deny any jews sufferings. with the acts of israel, imagine after another 60 years what will happen.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Now what i would like to know is, how is questioning the number of those who been killed considered to be a holocaust denial?

I would say that from a certain number up, it would be called "holocaust"..?

So, if you were to say the number is less, it would be murder instead of holocaust. Wich wouldn't make it a good thing ofcourse.. But people could try to make it "warvictims"..

 

[darkendless]

everytime this subject is opened, it turned out to be messy as if "it's better to close that door, a strong wind coming from it", it smells like kinda of terrorizing others who dare.

back to the topic, what i think is that nazis targeted many nations and groups of people including and not only jews, if chinese or arabs where their at that time, they will be targeted also, it's a racist ideology.

but wait a minute here, people also have the rights to discuss the history, right?
it's history, not a holy book, even holy books found who deny it freely.

another thing, about zionism, i'm not anti-jews in anyway, but certainly i'm anti-zionism, and anybody who see the results of this racist movement will realize it's not different than nazi.

mixing between jews suffereings in WWII and zionism who established israel on flesh and blood of others is and will be on the long run very harmful to jews.

it's just 60 years past, and there are who deny any jews sufferings. with the acts of israel, imagine after another 60 years what will happen.

I think the main reason Nazism has copped so much flak over the years is because of their open stance towards racism and genocide. Zionism has never really come out and said "we hate this race of people and they are going to die." Hitler was bipolar and many many other things, it was difficult for him to supress his strong dislike. During his time Germany was struggling and it was convenient for Hitler to blame the Jews. Sure maybe zionism is not much different, but a lot of things still resemble the nazi regime.

Regardless of whether you like hitler or not it would be unfair to dimiss his brilliant political mind.

 

[wmam]

Why can't one say that any number be a holocaust?

I just did. If there had been just one person killed it would have been a holocaust. It was for that one person. It was for that one persons family and friends. How dare anyone deny it. Anyone that would deny such a thing is worse than scum and shouldn't be allowed to breath the same air we do. Denier's beware!

Look, I for one do not see the big deal over the numbers thing. Righteous life taken by another, be it one or one billion, is a holocaust in my book.

I just thought of a question for the christians and will make a thread pertaining to such..........

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/76074-question-christians-holocaust.html

 

[Yerda]

it's just 60 years past, and there are who deny any jews sufferings. with the acts of israel, imagine after another 60 years what will happen.

Are you arguing that Israel's behaviour has led people to question the holocaust?

I responded to some of your post by starting the thread "Zionism" in this same section.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why can't one say that any number be a holocaust?

Because the order of magnitude of people killed says something about the intent of the killers.

200,000 to 300,000 (the number touted by the Bishop in the thread which this one spun off of) indicates that the Nazis probably did round up the Jews, make them slave labourers and generally treated them badly, but doesn't point toward a purposeful, systematic extermination... just to the Nazis not particularily caring whether their slaves lived or died.

6,000,000 (the actual number) indicates a deliberate program of genocide... i.e. a holocaust.

Either one is horrible, but they're still two things that are very different in nature.

 

[England my lionheart]

Holocaust,mass murder,genocide call it what you will it will not change the fact it actually happened,the figure of 6 million Jews is below the actual figure which would be far greater if we included the Jews who did'nt get as far as the camps or killed by the Einsatz Gruppen.
Among the 6 million others killed were Poles ,Gypses,Homosexuals,Political prisoners,disabled,communists,Jehovahs witnesses,Slavs the list is long so the number of Jews killed was by far the highest.
It was well known that Hitler intended to carry out genocide on the Jews,please see THE EVIAN CONFERENCE - INTRODUCTION this explains things.

 

[wmam]

Either one is horrible, but they're still two things that are very different in nature.

As I have posted, their one in the same to me.

 

[England my lionheart]

Holocaust,mass murder,genocide call it what you will it will not change the fact it actually happened,the figure of 6 million Jews is below the actual figure which would be far greater if we included the Jews who did'nt get as far as the camps or killed by the Einsatz Gruppen.
Among the 6 million others killed were Gypses,Homosexuals,Political prisoners,disabled,communists,Jehovahs witnesses,Slavs the list is long so the number of Jews killed was by far the highest.
It was well known that Hitler intended to carry out genocide on the Jews,please see THE EVIAN CONFERENCE - INTRODUCTION this explains things.

There were other conferences that basically ended on the same note nobody wanted the Jews of Germany and the occupied countries.
What really needs answering is why anybody wants to deny it,whats their reason

 

[challupa]

another thing, about zionism, i'm not anti-jews in anyway, but certainly i'm anti-zionism, and anybody who see the results of this racist movement will realize it's not different than nazi.

That's interesting that you compare zionism to nazism. In other threads people are talking about the Hamas charter that says that the nation of Israel needs to be destroyed. Here is an interesting quote out of Karen Armstrong's "Battle for God" that doesn't seem to far off the Hamas charter yet it is a Rabbi talking: Listen to this:

"in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled 'Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah' in the official magazine of Bar-Ilan University. He argued that the Palestinians were to Jews what darkness is to light and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites."

(Actually I don't think he was that specific as far as Palestinians, as quoted by Armstrong, but basically from what I could find Hess said it applied to all non-Jews.)

The fate of the Amalekites is read in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I will punish what Am'alek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and smite Am'alek and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both men and women, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

Others have raised the question of whether it is the actions of the present day Israel that is raising questions about the Holocaust. Possibly, but I don't think it is the majority that are causing this. It is once again the work of a small minority fringe element that thinks like Rabbi Israel Hess that is possibly enraging other races and raising questions. As usual, it is the ones that are fanatic that are making everything worse for those who don't agree with this fanatic philosophy.

Here are a couple of links to illustrate why the work of a few are harming the safety and ability to have peace for the many in Israel.
Pursuing the Millennium

Foundations of a Political Messianic Trend in Israel by Uriel Tal
Here is a portion taken from the above link regarding Rabbi Hess's paper "The Commandment of Genocide in the Torah"

"The third position concerning the question of the non-Jew's human rights is based upon the positive commandment from the Torah of the eradication of any trace of Amalek, i.e., actual genocide. This solution was suggested by Rabbi Israel Hess in his article, "The Commandment of Genocide in the Torah" (Bat Kol, the student journal of Bar Ilan University, Feb. 26, 1980), and apart from several colleagues such as Uriel Simon and other members of Oz ve-Shalom (the dovish religious group), we do not know of any dissenting reaction on behalf of the rabbinical teachers of this trend. Their silence is particularly significant in this instance, as we are dealing with a community for whom, because of its political structure, its leadership is not just the guide but also the one who grants absolution, because according to their outlook, the function of the Chief Rabbinate and heads of the yeshivot is to react to reality and to demonstrate to man the error of his ways (the rabbis in the yeshivot are thus called mashgichim—"supervisors"). Rabbi Hess proclaims that "the day will come when we will all be called to fulfill the commandment of this religiously commanded war, of annihilating Amalek"—the commandment of genocide. The manner of carrying this out is described in I Samuel 15:3: "Go now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him but kill man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and ***." (Hmm guess you can't say that word, so let's revise it to donkey)

This duty of carrying out the annihilation of Amalek is based, according to Rabbi Hess, on two arguments: the one concerning racial purity, and the other concerning war. The racial justification is as follows: according to Genesis 36:12, Amalek is the son of Timna, who was Eliphaz's concubine. Yet according to I Chronicles 1:36, the same Timna was the daughter of Eliphaz and thus Amalek's sister. Rabbi Hess thus concludes that Eliphaz cohabited with his wife (who herself was somebody else's wife), begat his daughter Timna by her, took his daughter as a concubine, cohabited with her, and thus Amalek was born. Thus, the rabbi tells us, it is impure blood which flows in Amalek's veins and in the veins of Amalek's descendants for all time. And as for the second argument—Amalek is the enemy who fought against Israel in a particulary cruel manner, Hess says, personifying boundless evil, because when the Children of Israel were walking along their way, exhausted, Amalek attacked and killed them, man, woman and child. According to this conception, in the opposition between Israel and Amalek there appears the opposition betwen light and darkness, between purity and contamination, between the people of God and the forces of evil, and this opposition continues to exist with respect to the descendants of Amalek for all time. And who are his descendants for all time? These are the Arab nations."

It's this kind of twisted thinking that causes so many problems and when people get to the point of intense hatred there is a tendency to dehumanize others.

I for one cannot understand why anyone would question the Holocaust as I have known two survivors of it personally.

 

[Caladan]

"in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled 'Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah' in the official magazine of Bar-Ilan University. He argued that the Palestinians were to Jews what darkness is to light and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites."

For some reason I find it hard to believe this was posted on Bar Ilans official magazine, or if it was it was quoted in order to be ridiculed.
The common articles I know from the Tel Aviv university are against the occupation of the Palestinian territories by Israel.

 

[challupa]

For some reason I find it hard to believe this was posted on Bar Ilans official magazine, or if it was it was quoted in order to be ridiculed.
The common articles I know from the Tel Aviv university are against the occupation of the Palestinian territories by Israel.

All the articles I have found seem to point to it being there. The links I have found seem diverse enough and they all seem to say the same thing. Of course anything is possible and I would never say that it is absolute, just what I have been able to find on the subject thus far. Here is the google page where I found these and there are more there if you are interested. Let me know what you think, I would be interested.
rabbi Israel Hess - Google Search=

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As I have posted, their one in the same to me.

Hmm. If you view the killing of even one person as a holocaust, then I would think getting the number right would be very important to you. After all, the difference between 6,000,000 people dying and 5,999,999 would be the difference of a whole holocaust.

 

[Caladan]

All the articles I have found seem to point to it being there. The links I have found seem diverse enough and they all seem to say the same thing. Of course anything is possible and I would never say that it is absolute, just what I have been able to find on the subject thus far. Here is the google page where I found these and there are more there if you are interested. Let me know what you think, I would be interested.
rabbi Israel Hess - Google Search=

The 24500 students registered at the university and its colleges hailing from diverse cultural and religious backgrounds study together harmoniously in classrooms laboratories and libraries and thus Bar-Ilan University contributes to tolerance and coexistence between religious and secular and Arab and Jewish students

BAR-ILAN UNIV - Israel

 

[challupa]

BAR-ILAN UNIV - Israel

Thanks for the link. I am sure it is like most universities, a place where diverse people can come together, debate, critique, and learn. Those are good things in a higher education setting. I believe my post was not about the university, but the minority fringe that may be causing problems for the majority. That article probably wasn't one that would unite nations, let's put it that way.

 

[logician]

Of course, this does nothing to reduce the horrible carnage and memory of the holocaust, but there were retrobutive genocides after the war against the Sudetan Germans, who lived in what became Czechoslavkia after the war, which are not so commonly known.

 

[YmirGF]

2- is questioning the number of people who been killed? 48%

4- claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred? 51%
This is an interesting figure indeed. Thank you all for participating in the poll and helping me proceed with this discussion.

Not a problem, my friend, although it might have helped to include Have a thinly veiled reason to discredit the numbers. (i.e. An Agenda).

Now what i would like to know is, how is questioning the number of those who been killed considered to be a holocaust denial?

No credible scientists have stepped forward questioning the accepted figures. I’d suggest there is good reasons for that. One reason may well be that there is no serious new evidence that clearly demonstrates that the numbers are inflated.

If someone took a scientific approach to prove that they were less than 6 million for instance, how is that a holocaust denial?

It isn’t, TashaN.

IF a serious scientist or group of scientist’s uncovered bona fide new evidence that put the number into question that could be logical grounds for re-examining the existing data. Until such time that new evidence is found there is no compelling reason to doubt the widely accepted number that has been static for over five decades.

By the way, can someone please help me by giving me some unbiased links which talk about holocaust denial?

I highly doubt you will find any and that is largely the fault of members in the “Holocaust Denial movement", who over the decades have been discredited due to their wanton disregard for facts, their own willingness to use faked documentation to support their spurious claims and their unseemly reliance on rhetoric that is not supported by bona fide documentation.

I noticed that wiki page regarding this matter is clearly poor.

Are you referring to this page, TashaN? Holocaust denial

Oddly, I thought it covered the whole thing fairly well. Perhaps what you are discouraged by is the fact that the “holocaust denial movement” suffers from a very large credibility problem. I could be wrong, but there aren’t any real “scholars” in the movement that anyone, who is not within the movement, takes seriously, mainly because there is little to no merit in their thinking. This could be called "An Inconvenient Truth".


During my “look see” into this matter, I came across this little nugget. I offer it up for your edification. It struck me as being a rather fascinating point.

Accusations of a Zionist conspiracy

Since the 1960s, the Soviet Union promoted the allegation of secret ties between the Nazis and the Zionist leadership, under the doctrine of Zionology. The thesis of 1982 doctoral dissertation of Mahmoud Abbas, a co-founder of Fatah and current president of the Palestinian Authority, who earned his Ph.D. in history at the Moscow State Institute of Oriental Studies with Yevgeny Primakov being his thesis advisor, was "The Secret Connection between the Nazis and the Leaders of the Zionist Movement".[55][56]

In his 1983 book The Other Face: The Secret Connection Between the Nazis and the Zionist Movement, based on the dissertation, Abbas wrote:

It seems that the interest of the Zionist movement, however, is to inflate this figure [of Holocaust deaths] so that their gains will be greater. This led them to emphasize this figure [six million] in order to gain the solidarity of international public opinion with Zionism. Many scholars have debated the figure of six million and reached stunning conclusions—fixing the number of Jewish victims at only a few hundred thousand.[57][58][59]

In his March 2006 interview with Haaretz Abbas stated:

​

I wrote in detail about the Holocaust and said I did not want to discuss numbers. I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000. I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it.[60]

Curiously, I found it utterly fascinating that the current Palestinian President is the source to such interesting disinfomation. Oddly, you wouldn't think that that might indicate an impediment in resolving the current Palestinian/Israeli situation, would you? Regardless, it is an interesting side note that is certainly relative to the questions being asked.