Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Respectful question: does the fact that dogs are good judges of character factor into why they're forbidden by Islam?
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Your thoughts on dogs
- Thread starter TJ73
- Start date
dust1n
Zindīq
I'm just letting you know, as a native English speaker, that you have read Kathryn's comments in a context she did not mean to portray, and I feel confident in that considering I argue with her all the time. And yes, lots of dog owners do not let their dogs on couches because their hair tends to be dirty.
I fail to see why a dog is unclean. A dog has more antibacterial materials in its mouth than a human by ten fold.
wesley.esmada
Wesley
The Qur'an is silent about whether dogs are good/bad or clean/unclean. If an obscure tradition exists and is considered to be "Islamic" despite the Qur'an being silent on the issue, is that an innovation to the Qur'an and to Islam? Going against the Qur'an is obvious but there must be a reason why Allah chose not to include the subject of dogs and other things in the Qur'an, which is the judge, the truth, the light, the Message. 
dust1n
Zindīq
There's some things you just don't want to know.Even so, the smart writer lady said that we are on par. Apples to oranges. So they are still as clean (or dirty
) as humans.
Starsoul
Truth
Dear Tj73, Can you please point out where it is said that abuse is allowed to animals? I have a few questions and you can think over them.
Are you able to say that Humans , on the whole, are responsible for taking care of the animal kingdom? If so, Do you think that humans are free from their obligation to render help to humanity and at this point in this world , humans do not need to be taken care of?
I'm not saying animals are to be neglected, but Nature pretty much takes care of the WHOLE animal system out there, without any services of help being offered by mankind. That said, when any animal is in danger indeed and there is human presence in the instance where help can be offered, no sane human is going to stop from helping the animal, and you will find no religion to sanction that help. And as seen, animals are always more dangered around human population than they are when they are on their own. Its mostly always humans who run havoc with animal lives.
Whats important to realize is, that humans , at any stage of our lives, need MORE fellow human help than animals do. If there's a man dying and your pet, who would you help first? You may get emotionally challenged to choose your decision wisely at such a time and that can affect your whole outlook on humanity.
I myself LOVE and adore pets! but i left keeping them quite sometime ago since i realized there was a species out there who was in Terrible need of help , and by tending to the daily needs of my pets, i was overlooking and ignoring thousands, and millions of people out there who deserved human help, in whichever way that was possible to help.
I do think, however that tending to the medicinal needs of animals is ok, but going to the extent of complicated surgery is taking things too far. Vets are as much doctors as the other medics, why not utilize their skills for human well being? there are LARGE numbers of people in dire need of medical care all over the world, it is such a needy field in light of the wars going on in some regions and the death toll due to unhygienic water supplied in the 3rd world countries.
The main thing is, the importance of human care definitely weighs much over the other. In some societies, dogs are kept for protection and hunting and in ISlam that is allowed. But cuddling koocheeing is discouraged, especially with dogs maybe due to their unhygienic habits, and the highly infective micro-organisms that inhabit their saliva, it is said to be an impure animal, so distance is to be kept.
Cats however keep themselves quite clean, but pets on the whole are not allowed to be kept inside the house. By limiting them inside the house, you are forcefully changing their natural habitat to an artificial one, and by allowing them to be both outside and in, it is not possible to carry out regular cleaning and thoroughly maintaining your pet's hygiene all the time.
if a dog's saliva touches you, you are supposed to do ghussal( purify) yourself. One cannot actually maintain such a routine where you have a dog in the house and it touches you, and you go clean yourself every time you touch him. One would rather maintain personal and the family's hygeine rather than maintain the hygeine of all your children along with the house and the pets too, for how long anyone can do that? There are prayers to be maintained as well and that can make keeping pets very hectic.
If you can maintain such a level of cleanliness, well and good, otherwise you may have to slowly start thinking about what can be done.
Starsoul
Truth
You really did miss this information out from the article. Here's a note from the doctor who was Mis-quoted in the same article, hence distorting the information, hence the information in this article Inaccurate.
Can children catch worms and other diseases from Cats & Dogs?
Transferable Diseases from Dogs to Humans
Diseases Humans May Get From Dogs
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
The no dog thing is just cultural crap I don't really care for. You can ask my German Shepherd about how tiny a crap I give about some ancient cultural aversion to dogs. Well, if you speak German, you can ask him, LOL! He's bilingual but his English leaves a bit to be desired.
My kitchen counter, cell phone, computer... just about anything I own and epecially take out into public is filthier than my dog's mouth- and yet for some reason I don't have to bleach myself after touching those to purify myself.
Interestingly enough, it's cats whose mouths are the most dangerous. Ask any vet if a dog bite or cat bite is worse- the dog bite is going to be a bigger wound but the cat bite has enough germs to kill you- it's like a ~70% risk of infection from a cat bite, but I call BS on that I've never seen a cat bite that hasn't infected and trust me I have seen more than my fair share of cat bites. However FOR SOME STRANGE REASON IDK MAYBE IT'S ALSO CULTURE CAUSE IT SURE AS CRAP AINT SCIENCE most Muslims are just fine with cats.
... and I have five cats along with that dog- and that's not even half the animals I have about the house. LOL I'm risking death and hellfire every day.
We already done changed cats and dogs natural habitats and habits by domesticating them. They've been bred to live with humans- and not only just to live with us but to be our companions... so uh, why aren't we letting them in the house? 9_9
I also hate this attitude that there's some ~*~better cause~*~ that everyone should be working on. No, there's lots of different causes and lots of different people who fill different niches perfectly. I can't exactly go to some war-torn nation and start doing open heart surgery but I can assist in surgery at a low-cost spay and neuter clinic- so that's what I'm going to do.
hitlerandhisdogblondi.jpg
Stop trolling. We're not stupid. You're not being respectful.
My kitchen counter, cell phone, computer... just about anything I own and epecially take out into public is filthier than my dog's mouth- and yet for some reason I don't have to bleach myself after touching those to purify myself.
Starsoul said:
Interestingly enough, it's cats whose mouths are the most dangerous. Ask any vet if a dog bite or cat bite is worse- the dog bite is going to be a bigger wound but the cat bite has enough germs to kill you- it's like a ~70% risk of infection from a cat bite, but I call BS on that I've never seen a cat bite that hasn't infected and trust me I have seen more than my fair share of cat bites. However FOR SOME STRANGE REASON IDK MAYBE IT'S ALSO CULTURE CAUSE IT SURE AS CRAP AINT SCIENCE most Muslims are just fine with cats.
... and I have five cats along with that dog- and that's not even half the animals I have about the house. LOL I'm risking death and hellfire every day.
Starsoul said:
We already done changed cats and dogs natural habitats and habits by domesticating them. They've been bred to live with humans- and not only just to live with us but to be our companions... so uh, why aren't we letting them in the house? 9_9
I also hate this attitude that there's some ~*~better cause~*~ that everyone should be working on. No, there's lots of different causes and lots of different people who fill different niches perfectly. I can't exactly go to some war-torn nation and start doing open heart surgery but I can assist in surgery at a low-cost spay and neuter clinic- so that's what I'm going to do.
hitlerandhisdogblondi.jpg
Stop trolling. We're not stupid. You're not being respectful.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
I guess it's a good thing we invented rabies vaccines, wormers, flea and tick control products, etc?
If you think that's bad, you should see a list of diseases you can catch from other humans!
Trust me, I'm fresh out of a full workup from an infectious disease doctor (we're trying to find the cause of my mystery illness) and the list of zoonoses I was tested for was just a drop in the bucket compared to what I could have gotten from other people- despite the fact I'm in closer contact with dogs, cats, horses, parrots, and reptiles than people.fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
I slept and I remembered a verse:
Quran ( 5:8)
Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.
So I apologise for all the chaos I made, I had read many posts of yours before this one where you showed such a superiority attitude towards Muslims and I directly found this comment of yours after it so I had a bit enough of it.
So I apologize again and sorry after all, if any mod could delete my posts on this thread except this one than it would be good. You may even try to report them Kathryn.
Peace
Quran ( 5:8)
Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.
So I apologise for all the chaos I made, I had read many posts of yours before this one where you showed such a superiority attitude towards Muslims and I directly found this comment of yours after it so I had a bit enough of it.
So I apologize again and sorry after all, if any mod could delete my posts on this thread except this one than it would be good. You may even try to report them Kathryn.
Peace
Starsoul
Truth
This is going to be repeated, but it has been said before that Dogs are allowed for protection and hunting assistance. And they do infact are quite useful for both of these purposes.
They are good to sense burglar invasion, strangers in the house, for Airport /Hotel security, Sniffing drug trails, Crime scene etc and so much more.
Islam is only against Domesticating street animals , any other services can be utilized. The idea is more about helping 'humans' in need inspite of hoarding dogs for play.
Annually, US is spending 45.4 BILLION DOLLARS EVERY YEAR on pets ONLY! Does anyone know how much money that is every year? Does anyone realize where else this money could be spent on saving lives of HUMANS all over the poverty stricken world instead of domesticating some animals who were already living peacefully on their own?
http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2009/...n-pets-top-5-categories-8-basic-annual-costs/
If there's any other kind of character judging that you have in mind, I'm sure we are able to do that without them. But judging by the character of some people, It is appalling how much they spend on pet care ignoring the bigger picture of human well being. And thats one thing people need to realize and stop blaming the God above for all their miseries.
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Starsoul
Truth
its really good, ofcorse, and its quite admirable how people across the poor world do not have basic life or health care facilities and you can go around spending loftily on pets. Applause.
It would help if people came out of the comfort luxurious zones that they happily live in for an instance to see how much misery there is in the world where people need to watch out for their kids to just survive than worry about the vet bills of their pet's tick.
Starsoul
Truth
Ok i started one debate already : P here's the link, go smash it. : )
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...08910-would-you-save-pet-man.html#post2290009
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...08910-would-you-save-pet-man.html#post2290009
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
What's the dog going to do for a stranger in the home... if it's not allowed in the home? If you want a dog for protection than just leaving it in the yard or chained up somewhere isn't really helpful. They're going to be so starved for attention as they are social animals and want to be around their people they're just going to nuisance bark which will desensitize you to their barking and anyone who wants to break into your house just needs to sidestep the dog and they're in.
Dogs are... already domesticated. :|
Dogs are already domesticated. :| I mean, like, are we not supposed to be domesticating wolves here? I don't have any wolves.
Feral dogs actually don't really do that well, they're not like feral cats. They're less likely to survive as feral animals, more likely to attack other animals like livestock and humans, and because they aren't receiving any sort of medical treatment (but that would cost money! for a DOG!) they're likely to transmit diseases. Feral cats stay the hell away from people and don't pose that attack risk but they can still transmit diseases and need to be managed- spayed and neutered and tested for FeLV, FIV, and vaccinated against distemper, FeLV, rabies, etc. (I manage many feral cat colonies and do TNR.) Of course, that costs money too but at least they aren't dogs.
And a large part of that cost is medical bills (which just like for humans, medical costs just keep going up and up)- these are domesticated animals and they need our care, too.
It's not as if having a pet and caring for poor people is mutually exclusive- and really, pet dogs are not the cause of poverty in the world.
I have to ask, Starsoul, what are you doing for poor people who can't get medical treatment? In fact, where were any of you about two years ago when I tried to kill myself because I am poor, without health insurance, in severe pain and needing major surgery, and I wasn't getting any medical treatment? :sarcastic
Well, at least my dog was here for me. We're just sitting here in the lap of luxury bathing in frontline.
Starsoul
Truth
You don't domesticate dogs, is ALL that is being said. Dogs are not allowed inside of the houses in ISLAM. For more information, if you're interested, you can refer to the links provided in explanations for it.
this is a DIR and i'm not up for debating why or why not can muslims keep a dog.
You wouldn't say that If you'd seen a poor child die because of lack of food, you really do sound like you have no idea whats going on in the world, yes dogs don't cause it, Humans do, by overspending on dogs? : P
I run a free clinic for poor people in far flung areas, your point?
Its sad that you tried to kill yourself, and its good that the dog gave you good company, it is a creature of Allah too, nowhere in my posts have I thrashed or discarded how loyal a companion a dog can be,(we've kept dogs as well) but that does not give you any authority to change the verdict of religion on it.
A God fearing momin is always kind to all living beings, there are certain limitations kept to bind man into order. If i was to discuss 'other' aspects of domestication, i'm sure most morally upright people would agree.
My post was specifically about the luxury aspect of domesticating pets in a society where animals are given love and care than humans, the comparison is too wide, and too clear. Domesticating isn't allowed in Islam, and thats where its at.
Bismillah
Submit
It is not fair to compare the costs of keeping a pet with that of helping others. Zakat and other nonobligatory donations constitute a much larger investment than the upkeep of a pet. Also the two are not mutually exclusive. It would be unwise to say not to keep a pet and save the money for another being. With that I could retort, what do you eat, what do you wear, how big is your house, do you drive, what luxuries do you afford yourself? In all cases you could cut back your own lifestyle and save substantially more money than if you were to rid of any pets in your possession. There can be a balance between the two that is not hard to achieve.
Secondly the references that indicate that dogs are unclean are related to hadiths by the Prophet who clarified that a portion of good deads are retracted from a person who keeps a dog in their abode daily. The reasoning behind this is that these dogs are unclean. This would be true in the Prophet's time as many viruses and bacteria existed among the feral. In the modern world, I believe one would be hard pressed to make an argument that a dog is "impure".
Since they are no longer unclean then there should not be any emphasis placed on dogs alone correct? The Prophet clearly showed a love of animals and there is also an incident with his companion who was mournful when his songbird died. There is a strong emphasis that humans are to treat the creations of Allah with respect and kindness and given the conditions that a dog is no longer impure is it really sensible to attack our fellow brothers and sisters who happen to own them as pets?
As DIR I look forward to Muslim responses to refine my view and Inshallah increase our knowledge in the matter
Secondly the references that indicate that dogs are unclean are related to hadiths by the Prophet who clarified that a portion of good deads are retracted from a person who keeps a dog in their abode daily. The reasoning behind this is that these dogs are unclean. This would be true in the Prophet's time as many viruses and bacteria existed among the feral. In the modern world, I believe one would be hard pressed to make an argument that a dog is "impure".
Since they are no longer unclean then there should not be any emphasis placed on dogs alone correct? The Prophet clearly showed a love of animals and there is also an incident with his companion who was mournful when his songbird died. There is a strong emphasis that humans are to treat the creations of Allah with respect and kindness and given the conditions that a dog is no longer impure is it really sensible to attack our fellow brothers and sisters who happen to own them as pets?
As DIR I look forward to Muslim responses to refine my view and Inshallah increase our knowledge in the matter