Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

[Dawnofhope]

I can't stand Christians belittling others' religion. So agreed "confused is very mild". First thought was "this is belittling; but if they belittle you totally understandable [we need to protect ourselves, so we use words]". But even better to tell them the truth IMO . Sai Baba said "Nobody has the right to criticize/belittle your faith; and avoid those people". On RF I learned Ad Hominem, so now I tell them "Judge my religion = Ad Hominem attack. Stop or I'm gone". So I tell the truth, don't belittling, give a choice [Jesus said don't judge; they can't argue that, few tried, but always had to admit they were wrong]

Thanks I'm happy to have you here also. I also follow Christ/Muhammad. Sai Baba ones introduced me to a Muslim woman saying "I will give you this lady as your wife". A fantastic woman. The perfect way "not to criticize Islam". Without that, seeing all trouble caused in name of Quran it would have been very hard for me "not to judge Islam". Now I only say "No" to certain violent acts. Islam is a great religion. And Sai Baba is a fan of Islam and His previous incarnation Shirdi Sai Baba walked around as Muslim. I angred Sai Baba 4 times [not on purpose of course], that were minor things. He got so mad at me, yelling, that I almost died on the spot. Shirdi is said to be worse. So I rather stay safe. You don't hear me speak bad about Islam as religion. Having dreams of both is nice; nightmares I rather avoid.

If this GP has visited Sai Baba, I might have met him even in India [I stayed 10 years in the ashram]. I even might have met you when I was for 3 month in New Zealand. But chances in such a big country are very small. New Zealand is a wonderful country. Few of my family live there.

It hard to ignore Islam as a religion if you are married to a Muslim, and its hard to stay married to a Muslim if you are negative about the religion. So Sai Baba did you a great service lol.

Ragupathy is the name of the GP and Vali his wife. They are obviously of Indian descent.

I live in Dunedin.

The world is a small place indeed.

 

[stvdv]

Sai Baba once introduced me to a Muslim woman saying "I will give you this lady as your wife". A fantastic woman. The perfect way "not to criticize Islam"

It hard to ignore Islam as a religion if you are married to a Muslim, and its hard to stay married to a Muslim if you are negative about the religion. So Sai Baba did you a great service lol.

Ragupathy is the name of the GP and Vali his wife. They are obviously of Indian descent.

I live in Dunedin. The world is a small place indeed.

Since age 10 I told everyone "I will not marry and never had children". So when He told me this it took some courage to say "NO" to my guru. But my conscience told me "although she is one of the most beautiful girls I ever saw, I am here for God, not for women". But was a hard decision, because previously I told Sai Baba "I want to fully surrender to you". So there was a big dilemma.

Luckily I read almost all Sai Baba's books and remembered Him saying "Common Sense before Divine Sense". Saved by the Bell so to speak. Common Sense was simple. Don't marry. I want God, not wife + 50% divorce rate [I don't want to break a promise; Baba told me once "better die then break your promise"] + non-Muslim man must become Muslim if married to Muslim woman, so not me.

About 7 years after that Sai Baba called me in for interview and told me "For you it is better not to marry, you have other goal in life; wife won't make you happy". Was nice finally having the confirmation that my conscience was right and saying NO to my Guru was the right decision.

Guru's don't make your life easy. Especially when they are Poorna Avatars. Knowing everything about you. You can't hide anything/anywhere
But Him knowing everything feels also comfortable; no worry "would He know or maybe not?"

Good lesson I learned. Sometimes God tests you "Do you listen to God inside or God outside". God does this testing with everyone He loves. If you know this out of personal experience you read scriptures with completely different eyes.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since age 10 I told everyone "I will not marry and never had children". So when He told me this it took some courage to say "NO" to my guru. But my conscience told me "although she is one of the most beautiful girls I ever saw, I am here for God, not for women". But was a hard decision, because previously I told Sai Baba "I want to fully surrender to you". So there was a big dilemma.

Luckily I read almost all Sai Baba's books and remembered Him saying "Common Sense before Divine Sense". Saved by the Bell so to speak. Common Sense was simple. Don't marry. I want God, not wife + 50% divorce rate [I don't want to break a promise; Baba told me once "better die then break your promise"] + non-Muslim man must become Muslim if married to Muslim woman, so not me.

About 7 years after that Sai Baba called me in for interview and told me "For you it is better not to marry, you have other goal in life; wife won't make you happy". Was nice finally having the confirmation that my conscience was right and saying NO to my Guru was the right decision.

Guru's don't make your life easy. Especially when they are Poorna Avatars. Knowing everything about you. You can't hide anything/anywhere
But Him knowing everything feels also comfortable; no worry "would He know or maybe not?"

Good lesson I learned. Sometimes God tests you "Do you listen to God inside or God outside". God does this testing with everyone He loves. If you know this out of personal experience you read scriptures with completely different eyes.

I had wondered how a Sai Baba man and a Muslim woman might marry. That was good that you intuitively knew that marriage wasn't for you.

I can't imagine having a guru in this world and not the next. Its good you don't see your guru as infallable as you would could have made a big mistake. You were able to listen to hear God clearly enough to over ride what your guru wanted. Well done.

I'm married with two children. We say prayers together morning and evening. I lived alone for 5 years before and so although comfortable on my own, think I'm better off in a family.

I have work tomorrow so better sign off for the night.

 

[shunyadragon]

Thank you. This was all we needed here. This is the correct information. Belittling others' faith is 1st violence, starting 2nd, 3rd violent religion.

Key problem: Religions claiming "Our way is the highway" + "Evangelizing" = disrespectful [soul level, Ad Hominem] imposing it on others

Solution: The Bahai type of way "All ways are highways" + "non Evangelizing" [others' way is already okay, with exception of imposing stuff]

Ironically there is 1 problem left in the world = Evangelizing. That was the whole Lesson God wanted to teach us "Do not judge (others' religion)"

Mission Accomplished [But other "mission(ary work)" these imposing religions had in mind]. Learn that 3 fingers point to you if 1 points to the other

Actually if it was evangelizing that was '1 problem left in the world' I would happy. Everyone teaches and publicizes their faith to the world. The problem comes with methods, such as Intimidation, psychological manipulation, using economic rewards to entice believers are indeed a problem

The biggest problems is how religions and other belief systems relate to believe differently (race, ethnicity and belief), and consider science.

 

[stvdv]

Actually if it was evangelizing that was '1 problem left in the world' I would happy. Everyone teaches and publicizes their faith to the world. The problem comes with methods, such as Intimidation, psychological manipulation, using economic rewards to entice believers are indeed a problem

The biggest problems is how religions and other belief systems relate to believe differently (race, ethnicity and belief), and consider science.

I always thought that evangelizing was about "teaching, publicizing and sharing your love for Christ"
But Google clearly gives 2 definitions: a)Preach [as in sharing I guess] + b)Try to convert
Try to convert implies belittle the faith of the other. If his faith was good, then there is not need to convert

So evangelizing is exactly the whole problem, because it contains all the bad techniques you mention "emotional/psychological manipulation". I even used to call it "emotional blackmailing". And also "Black Magic". Because that is exactly what it is. Put in a magic spell "you go to hell if you do this..." at a young age and when grown up they might be totally messed up, ripe for psychiatry IMO.

We need to define evangelize correct. Only if shown correct how sick it is, they might learn, I won't hold my breath. 2000 years brainwashing is hard to deprogram.

And if they let go their arrogance "My way is the highway", then your other point about science will also get solved more easy. Arrogant people are never open to other truth.

 

[stvdv]

I had wondered how a Sai Baba man and a Muslim woman might marry. That was good that you intuitively knew that marriage wasn't for you.

I am grateful Sai Baba gave me this test. Good boost for my self-confidence and God-confidence

I can't imagine having a guru in this world and not the next.

Sai Baba stays with me forever. Now He died and still comes in dreams. Once I stopped food/water, on the day He died, and I also "died", went through the tunnel of light and in the end of the tunnel I met Sai Baba. He gave me some instructions and kept me alive before sending me back to earth. Best experience ever. Fear of death is gone. Now I know what happens when I die, and it was a wonderful experience. Biggest blessing on the day Sai Baba left His body

Its good you don't see your guru as infallable as you would could have made a big mistake.

You didn't read my reply correct. Sai Baba is perfect. He gave me this as a test [many reasons] and the main lesson was "Common Sense before Divine Sense". That is His teaching. So He gave me the exam, to see if I understood all His lessons. Say NO to Guru [after being with Him for 3 years] is a hard test [Buddhism call it "Kill the Buddha (outside)"]. Still many other tests I have to pass. Just 1 test at a time.

You were able to listen to hear God clearly enough to over ride what your guru wanted. Well done.

So it was not "what my guru wanted". Like I said in previous reply "7 years later he congratulated me that I made the right decision, and passed His test"

I lived alone for 5 years before and so although comfortable on my own, think I'm better off in a family.

I think you mean "I know I am better of in a family". Ramana Maharshi said "you can't avoid what God has planned, and can't get what God has not planned". Gives peace of mind, believing this.

So now I am also off from RF. My God this is addictive. But good, because I learn a lot, get a good idea about other religions
Just after your nice reply, I got a very nasty reply from a Muslim, belittling anything non-Muslim. But luckily I just said to you "bad Muslims-act does not mean that Islam is bad". This I really need to remind myself. Because so much belittling others' religions is going on in the world.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The problem remains the inconsistent and contradictory claims of judgement over the millenia by people who believe differently. Many acts of judgement have resulted in the unfortunate termination of many lives.

My post addressed the egocentric claim of salvation and not the how of salvation is described different places in the Bible.
I will choose b)

If you mean the antichrist popes said salvation was achieved by wholesale crusade slaughter, that is awful, yes. We both know saying one is of faith does not mean one truly has faith.

However, if the Bible simply is self-contradictory, why do all 12 NT writers affirm salvation is by faith, not works, do you think? Why 150 clear passages explaining salvation is a gift and only the same few misconstrued passages that you are using to save God judges sinners worthy of Hell because they "try hard" or "have a sort of good lifestyle"?

 

[shunyadragon]

If you mean the antichrist popes said salvation was achieved by wholesale crusade slaughter, that is awful, yes. We both know saying one is of faith does not mean one truly has faith.

No I do not mean that, and never referred to it.

However, if the Bible simply is self-contradictory, why do all 12 NT writers affirm salvation is by faith, not works, do you think? Why 150 clear passages explaining salvation is a gift and only the same few misconstrued passages that you are using to save God judges sinners worthy of Hell because they "try hard" or "have a sort of good lifestyle"?

Salvation by faith does not translate into one can claim salvation and excluding others that believe differently.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No I do not mean that, and never referred to it.



Salvation by faith does not translate into one can claim salvation and excluding others that believe differently.

I agree. I can only choose to be a member at those churches that teach salvation by faith while being inclusive--and a hallmark of a great church is the number of unbelievers and unsaved in attendance.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

People are fond of taking those parts out of context

To be fair, it's hard to put a book in context when it's not arranged according to context, but text length.

Hence, the reason I favor Christianity as by far the lesser of two evils, especially considering that Jesus didn't kill anyone or order anyone to be put to death!

Actually, I would argue that at least Muslims are honest. Christianity does so much white-washing the bleach is eating away at the surface. I would rather know precisely what a person thinks of me than a person who claims God loves me while they really want me to burn in hell.

Jesus did away with all of that!

God apologized, sort of, after the Flood, which is in the OT. After Jesus supposedly fixed everything, God goes, "You know what? I kinda wanna kill off everyone anyway, and I'll have to use things other than water because I made that stupid rainbow thing the gays just love, but My point is, screw Earth."

The belief in the exclusiveness of one religion, church, or variation of the above encourages this darker side of humanity..

Indeed. A religion should have humility, and not that false humility like some of the apostles or Paul: "I'm just a regular dude, but please hang on to my every word and never question me."

I have a theory that makes me sad, having seen evidence that if you are a ******* and become religious, you are then a religious *******. If you are a nice person and become religious then you are a religious nice person. We make and change religion to suit ourselves. The idea that religion makes us nice is fantasy.

Yup. Religion isn't a transformative thing. It's just a window into your soul. You go with the religion (or stop going to one) depending on the nature of your soul. People who claim to have become better people thanks to religion were already wanting to change anyway. Religion never changes the people who don't want to.

I just had to say hello. I've never heard religious followers described as "theological fandoms." Very apt.

I came up with that all by mahself. Dur.

I was inspired by watching fans eat each other over the same kinds of things:

You're not a true fan if you don't buy all the merch.
You're not a true fan if you don't watch every movie or episode or read every book.
You're not a true fan because I ship these characters and even though the canon clearly doesn't want them to be together, I will continue to ship them until the day I die and that means I'm right.



(On a sadder note, now we can add: If the creators write something we don't agree with, we should threaten them with death. [see Captain America, Star Wars (dear GOD, Star Wars)])

Do you know if Jesus was a bit barbaric and that they just dress him up nice for the Bible; like they do with models and movie stars?

Definitely. They claim he is sinless and yet:

Is racist (is shocked that gentiles can be faithful, even though as God he should know this, and even as just a man, was supposedly a scriptural expert and God allied with gentiles in the scriptures at least a couple of times).
Violates the Sabbath on purpose (yes, I know he was "making a point", but he still broke something out of the Big Ten).
Dishonors his parents (how did he grow to adulthood since the rules state to kill bratty kids?).
Is hypocritical (rarely does the stuff he asks us to do).
Assaults people with a whip.
Indirectly causes a Roman crackdown that kills lots and lots of innocent people.
Is selfish (we never hear from most of the people he helped ever again, almost like they were reverse redshirts who were only there to make the main characters look good).
Went to hell because he forgot he said people who call others "fools" will go to hell and kept doing so (if what he said is true, then several biblical authors and God Himself are also burning for eternity -- whoops).

You will find plenty of Christian countries that are democracies.

Israel is supposedly a democracy but we all know that's a farce. The US sucks the tit of Christian conservatism so hard the boobs have deflated.

Jesus is presented as a very reasonable fellow with whom even Pontius Pilot could find no quarrel.

Except it's a lie. Pilate killed him. All the Jewish drama was an attempt to be anti-Semitic because by the point the texts were written, gentiles were running the show and we can't have gentiles be the bad guy, right?

Jesus, remember, said, "Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's." This establishes a clear distinction between the state and the church.

Except for the interpretation that Jesus knew everything belonged to God and he was just being a troll to avoid being shot right then and there by Romans.

This is why Muslim nations are so often theocracies.

Again, I live in the US. We are desperately trying to be a theocracy with a democratic whitewash, like Israel is right now. At least the Muslims are honest. We do evil things with a smiley pasted on.

Jesus did away with garbage like stoning adulterers.

He didn't, though. His point was that she can't be the town bicycle if they all hadn't ridden her. It was the hypocrisy he was against. Also, Jesus wasn't in the government, so he didn't stop squat officially. It kept going while he was alive and after he died. Christians don't seem to mind killing people for "love" either:
http://listverse.com/2014/04/01/10-love-stories-that-ended-in-murder/

and in this century don't legally torture and kill people for not being Christian.

The. United. States. Do you WATCH the news?

Drinking wine is not Barbaric.

Muhammad was an extremist, radical, fanatic, bloodthirsty terrorist, who committed countless vicious sadistic crimes against humanity!

Didn't you just praise him for banning alcohol? How can you say drinking wine is not barbaric?

I'm talking about 21st century.

IIRC, Guantanamo is still open. We don't even care if they're Christian. We just slap kids in concentration camps and sell them to sex slavers. "For freedom".

Carrying His own cross

Technically, he did for a little bit before dropping it and someone else had to do it.

In my country they don't stone you to death in public.

In my country, we may not use rocks, but we'll sure as hell use everything else. Guns are more important than people to the extent that when school shooting survivors -- KIDS -- protest being, you know, KILLED, I've seen people comment that the kids should be killed for daring to protest guns. Or raped. Or something else. I get the news is depressing and someone might want to avoid the news, but Jesus Christ -- we are doing some SOUL-CRUSHING crap.

A female friend of mine is from Iran. She escaped from there. She told me "it was not so nice", to say it nice. Heaven in Europe.

I was going to say, "Hope she didn't move to the US". The planet has even put out tourist warnings because we're just so trigger happy right now. My country won't be satisfied until every bullet has been shot.

I mean, I live in a country where a woman wearing a flag from a territory owned by the US is harassed and threatened, while we do NOTHING for everyone wearing CSA flags, the existence of which is about treason to the US because whites are superior and yet so snowflaky that they can't handle other people existing in a nation that didn't originally belong to them anyway.

Arguably they are being tortured for being terrorists or fighting American War on terror.

But we're calling everyone non-white "terrorists". It doesn't matter what religion they are. I'm in more danger statistically speaking from fellow white people, ESPECIALLY WASPs, and yet my country wants me to believe brown people are the cause of all my problems.

American government doesn't see being non-christian as crime, otherwise we would bulldoze every mosque in America!

And you don't think we don't? Or even prevent them from having a permit to build one in the first place?

 

[stvdv]

I was going to say, "Hope she didn't move to the US". The planet has even put out tourist warnings because we're just so trigger happy right now. My country won't be satisfied until every bullet has been shot.

Thank you Kelly, that is the picture I get from the news about USA, being in Holland.

So today, after seeing this thread "Muslim and fascism", I got curious which countries now really are fascist countries

BIG surprise:
Many sites describe USA is the only country that seems to be heading to what is called "Fascist Country"
No Muslim countries added to this list. Just USA.
Curious Kelly what you say about these 2 links, as you live in USA
Nowadays I don't know which news to be fake or not

nice .jpg showing very clear the points, and USA checks them all I think. Had a quick look
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

This article makes it also clear:
https://eand.co/why-didnt-americans-take-fascism-seriously-until-it-was-too-late-445d2e4c387a

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Baha'i Faith is a reasonable alternative for the Theist, but possibly not the only possibility.

How is any "revealed" religion a reasonable alternative?

 

[LuisDantas]

How is any "revealed" religion a reasonable alternative?

Fair question, and tricky to answer.

To the best of my understanding, Abrahamics can be healthy under certain specific circunstances, albeit certainly not thanks for their nature as revealed monotheisms.

It can happen if one's social circle is sufficiently solid and cooperative to bridge over the flaws of the doctrine.

Sure, it amounts of learning how to avoid one's own beliefs' logical consequences, and is therefore inherently tricky and unadvisable. But many people manage it nonetheless.

 

[shunyadragon]

How is any "revealed" religion a reasonable alternative?

I consider the question a bit front loaded like, "Did you kill your mother with an ax or cleave?"
From your perspective you assume no revealed religion can be valid, and all versions of theism are false up front.

As far as from a Theist perspective the Baha'i Faith it offers a more universal perspective of the relationship of God to humanity and all of Creation through the revealed religions of the world. It acknowledges the human element in the scripture and cultures over the millennium, and the progressive nature of human spiritual and intellectual evolution, and acknowledges that this is parallel to our physical evolution. There are Revealed aspects of the nature of physical existence that reveal the physics of our existence.

"Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun." Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I consider the question a bit front loaded like, "Did you kill your mother with an ax or cleave?"

Not really. I'm certainly coming to the conversation with my own ideas, but I'm open to be convinced of something new.

From your perspective you assume no revealed religion can be valid, and all versions of theism are false up front.

Not really. I just see the inherent contradiction between these two ideas:

- God wants his message to be received by everyone.
- God gave his message to one person and asked him to spread the word.

And while I haven't met a theist yet who can give a reasonable explanation of why they believe in their god(s), I would be pleasantly surprised if I got one some day.

As far as from a Theist perspective the Baha'i Faith it offers a more universal perspective of the relationship of God to humanity and all of Creation through the revealed religions of the world.

Co-opted, altered versions of those religions.

It acknowledges the human element in the scripture and cultures over the millennium, and the progressive nature of human spiritual and intellectual evolution, and acknowledges that this is parallel to our physical evolution.

... and it does so in a form that, for the most part, has been unsuccessful at convincing people that it's true.

There are Revealed aspects of the nature of physical existence that reveal the physics of our existence.

"Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun." Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah

I don't suppose you have a single example where:

- the scientific consensus was that a claim was true,
- despite this, and based on their scriptures, Baha'is disagreed with the science and asserted that the claim was actually false,
- this disagreement was documented in contemporary sources, and
- today, the scientific consensus has shifted to agree with the Baha'i position.

Do you?

I ask because I've noticed that people who claim that there's science in their religious scriptures never seem to be able to spot the "science" until after the fact. It's generally more of a form of pareidolia ("here's a handful of scientific discoveries; if I squint at my holy book, can I find anything that kinda looks like any of them?") than it is honest exegesis.

 

[shunyadragon]

Not really. I'm certainly coming to the conversation with my own ideas, but I'm open to be convinced of something new.


Not really. I just see the inherent contradiction between these two ideas:

- God wants his message to be received by everyone.
- God gave his message to one person and asked him to spread the word.

And while I haven't met a theist yet who can give a reasonable explanation of why they believe in their god(s), I would be pleasantly surprised if I got one some day.

The Baha'i Faith was revealed across the world by the 1900's.In the Baha'i salvation is based on the sincerity of the person, and not whether know of the Revelation of the Baha'i Faith or not. The goal of of the Revelation is to change the world and reveal the knowledge to make that change. Change will take time as with all previous Revelations from God. It is progressive and evolving like the knowledge of science.


We have been over this before, noting new here, and no you have never been 'open to be convinced.'

Co-opted, altered versions of those religions.

This exemplifies the crux of the assumptions of your argument against Theism. I do not believe it can be demonstrated that the Baha'i co-opted anything, except as a negative assumption on your part on the nature of Theism. The basic assumptions of theism in the Baha'i Faith are simply common features of most religions. The belief that God is one inseparable, universal unknowable God is the foundation of the Baha'i Faith, and actually rejects the cultural verions of previous religions, and has its roots in their scripture.

... and it does so in a form that, for the most part, has been unsuccessful at convincing people that it's true.

So what?!?!?! Belief is not a popularity contest.

I don't suppose you have a single example where:

- the scientific consensus was that a claim was true,

There are other teachings first unique to the Revelation, such as social teachings like the mandatory education of all children,

- despite this, and based on their scriptures, Baha'is disagreed with the science and asserted that the claim was actually false,
- this disagreement was documented in contemporary sources, and
- today, the scientific consensus has shifted to agree with the Baha'i position.

The disagreement among fallible humans is not a meaningful issue the reference concerning the nature of atom stands. The intent of revelation is not to agree with the controversial disagreement between believers.

Do you?

Do I what?!?!?!

I ask because I've noticed that people who claim that there's science in their religious scriptures never seem to be able to spot the "science" until after the fact. It's generally more of a form of pareidolia ("here's a handful of scientific discoveries; if I squint at my holy book, can I find anything that kinda looks like any of them?") than it is honest exegesis.

The revelation of the nature of the atom was before the fact. It would not be meaningful if it were not.

Discussion of theistic religion is not really productive with you, because your up front aggressive atheism does not lead to a productive dialogue.

As per the discussion of the topic of the thread, which claims Islam is the most reasonable and makes the most sense of the theistic beliefs I believe when making a comparison of the Theistic Abrahamic beliefs the Baha'i Faith is the most reasonable and makes the most sense from a more objective perspective of how it relates to the real contemporary world, and the history of humanity.

 

[viole]

What would @viole say about that?

Keep in mind, i find most repulsive verses in the Bible as well!

It was atheists like you who pointed out how ugly that tyranny is, so i no longer defend or promote the Bible!

But I'm still a man of faith who goes to daily mass. But I follow the golden rule and my conscience over any ancient text that glorifies or justifies dark-aged fascism, bigotry, and misogyny.

I only tagged you because you are a rational thinker who used to live in Sweden, which is called, "the rape capitol of Europe".

Yes, well. In Sweden you now need a lawyer to officially witness mutual agreement of intercourse. Lacking this, rape is the default. Lol.

Yes. It is very easy to be accused of rape in Sweden. And that is why probably we look like a nation of rapists.

Try to do that in Muslim countries. Probably the woman would go to prison because of adultery.

But Sweden is not really a country for Muslims. I mean it. Imagine poor Muslim guy experiencing Ramadam in Kiruna in summer. The sun will not set for weeks. He would starve to death the poor thing...which is suboptimal.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes, well. In Sweden you now need a lawyer to officially witness mutual agreement of intercourse. Lacking this, rape is the default. Lol.

Yes. It is very easy to be accused of rape in Sweden. And that is why probably we look like a nation of rapists.

Try to do that in Muslim countries. Probably the woman would go to prison because of adultery.

But Sweden is not really a country for Muslims. I mean it. Imagine poor Muslim guy experiencing Ramadam in Kiruna in summer. The sun will not set for weeks. He would starve to death the poor thing...which is suboptimal.

Ciao

- viole

As to Ramadan, Most Islamic groups make an accommodation for high northern latitudes, but what is is I do not know.

The part about the woman being accused of adultery is exactly right, though that usually only happens in very backwards countries.

 

[Spiderman]

As to Ramadan, Most Islamic groups make an accommodation for high northern latitudes, but what is is I do not know.

The part about the woman being accused of adultery is exactly right, though that usually only happens in very backwards countries.

If a raped woman in Saudi-Arabia and elsewhere does not have five male witnesses, she goes to jail, so saudi women don't report rape usually.

 

[Looncall]

If you mean the antichrist popes said salvation was achieved by wholesale crusade slaughter, that is awful, yes. We both know saying one is of faith does not mean one truly has faith.

However, if the Bible simply is self-contradictory, why do all 12 NT writers affirm salvation is by faith, not works, do you think? Why 150 clear passages explaining salvation is a gift and only the same few misconstrued passages that you are using to save God judges sinners worthy of Hell because they "try hard" or "have a sort of good lifestyle"?

Since the gospels are clearly derived from one another, agreement among them is to be expected and means nothing.