1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,542
    Ratings:
    +8,653
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    No, that is cherry picking and excluding the holocaust, which is very recent and began well before the war as an extention of the pogroms against the Jews by the Christians of Europe.
     
  2. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    I said some of them were innocent.

    They were arrested on suspicion of other crimes or being terrorists.

    They were not arrested for the crime of being non-christians.

    American government doesn't see being non-christian as crime, otherwise we would bulldoze every mosque in America!

    You failed to quote me one time where i uttered falsehoods!

    Until you do, I have proven you made a false accusation, therefore, you lost the argument with your falsehood and irrelevant information!
     
  3. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    The persecution of Jews was sick and wrong, but there were Nazis who were Pagan or atheist, therefore, I don't see how it was a crime to be non-christian!

    There were more Christians killed by Nazis than Jews!

    Also, killing people for not being Christian went against the teachings of Christ. Therefore, that is not Christian behavior.

    Killing people for being non-muslims is Muslim behavior, because Muhammad did that and taught people to do so in the Qur'an!
     
  4. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,672
    Ratings:
    +10,296
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    By that reasoning we can excuse ISIS who declared war on the West.

    In regards cruel, countries that abort 20% of their unborn children is hardly anything to be proud about.

    We may have much more liberal laws but that goes with high rates of alcoholism, drug addiction and mental health problems.

    Westerners have a rich history of self-righteously criticising other cultures. I don’t think that’s a road either of us need to go down.
     
  5. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,672
    Ratings:
    +10,296
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The document Dabru Emet was issued by over 220 rabbis and intellectuals from all branches of Judaismin 2000 as a statement about Jewish-Christian relations. This document states,

    "Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities. But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity.“
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    13,799
    Ratings:
    +8,135
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Yes I totally agree when you put it this way.

    Violence in name of Christianity has been huge [bigger than in Islam I read]. God is all about justice. Christians better stop violence now. Evangelizing in Muslim countries I see as the most stupid and disrespectful form of violence. And they still do that on large scale as far as I know.

    So I hope religions soon get their act together.
     
    #286 stvdv, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    As far as who killed more people is a topic debated.

    I read that Islamic conquest of Africa alone killed up to 140 million people. That would be over 6 times as many people as Nazis killed, if that is true.

    But it may be Christians killed more people.

    However, that behavior is the opposite of what Christ taught. That behavior is totally in line with what Muhammad taught.

    Jesus and Muhammad were almost entirely opposite people with what they did and taught.

    Also, Muslims commit crimes worse than killing people. They brainwash and oppress hundreds of millions of people in the 21st century, robbing them of basic liberties to speak the truth, and sometimes torturing and mutilating them until they are disabled or disfigured for life.

    I would MUCH rather be dead than live in Samolia, Sudan, Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, west bank, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Afghanistan, or other Muslim-majority countries!

    I feel sorry for anyone who must live a lifetime robbed of free-speech! That would be torture for me.

    However, i find Christians often teach things that I hate with every fiber of my being, so I understand why people despise Christianity as well.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    13,799
    Ratings:
    +8,135
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I only said "Islam Law based on Quran is still used. Some practices are barbaric. Chopping of hands and feet etc. Stoning". Not for this age IMO.

    1: Agreed: Christians evangelizing++ in Muslim Countries self-create that ISIS retaliates now. Just stupid to make others angry knowingly.
    2: Agreed: Better sex for kids only. BUT: God killed first born in Egypt. We are made in His image. Less powerful, "abort" should not surprise God.
    3: NO: Liberal Laws with consequences is just personal choice. Does not fit in this comparison. I love strict discipline; free, not imposed
    4: Agreed: Christians evangelizing++ in Muslim Countries self-create that their heads are chopped of IMO. They know Blasphemy = death penalty

    * But if you think the "chopping hands" is needed to prevent Muslim from stealing then better have same rules for Muslim in your country IMO. Otherwise they all come to your country for stealing; less risky to lose their hands.

    * I love discipline. So ladies covered is perfect for me, no alcohol no problem, no drugs is fine, no evangelizing is perfect. No chopping of heads if woman prefers to go uncovered etc. If it is something personal without active harming others I am for free choice. When irritating others of course this needs some punishment.
     
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    13,799
    Ratings:
    +8,135
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Some good points IMO. I saw 100 million killed by Christians and 2 million by Muslims. So depends which website we look:D. Maybe mine was pro Muslim and yours pro Christian [or different periods]. Can't belief anything almost on the WEB. So maybe Muslims killed more. I don't know. Common sense says Christians killed more [700 extra years].

    Bottom line "Both are still crazy irritating, angering and killing the other".

    I don't even know what to believe from Jesus or Muhammad. I was not there. And fake news on WEB now. Probably lots of fake news in the year 0000 and 0700 also. Humans are the same then and now. Bunch of liars and deceivers. So forget the past and stop killing and mutilating NOW.

    Free speech creates also lots of hate [Kim and D.T I will nuke you etc]. Animals don't talk and we understand each other quite well. I would happily give up free speech if I would get heaven in return:D. Not speaking creates a lot of peace is my experience.
     
  10. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    In 2012, there were six civil wars worldwide. All took place within Muslim countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen. Of the nine rebel groups in these conflicts, seven had an Islamist ideology.

    In fact, over the past three years (article written in 2016), more than 90 percent of the victims in all civil wars are in Muslim countries — particularly in Syria, but also in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    even though Muslims make up a little less than a quarter of the world’s population.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...violent/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4e153213f152


    This is not an anti-muslim article. It actually argues the common falsehood that Islam is not more innately violent than other Religions.

    I have read elsewhere that 95% of the conflicts in our world involve Muslims. I didn't post that article because I didn't know if it was accurate.


    What is accurate, is that there are many Religions in our world. All of the violent conflicts or oppressive Theocracy governments of all of non-Muslim Religions combined does not equal the violence committed by Muslims.


    This clearly indicates that there is something intrinsically more violent about Islam, and anyone who has studied the Qur'an, Hadiths, or life of the prophet Muhammad, knows that this is completely factual!

    Most terrorists and suicide bombers in our world are Muslim, yet Muslims make up less than 25% of the population. If Republicans made up 25% of the world's population, but most of the terrorist attacks were from Republicans, most of the Intolerant Theocracies were Republican, and Republicans were involved in most violent conflicts and civil wars worldwide, liberals worldwide would be united in condemning the Republican party as intrinsically prone to violence, a huge threat to liberties they cherish, and intrinsically harmful to our World.

    Muslims essentially do the very same thing and countless Liberals and Public speakers like Obama defend Islam
    , in opposition to the overwhelming evidence and proof in the Qur'an. It never ceases to amaze me! :cry:
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    If it said 2 million killed by Muslims that is a total lie.

    Muslims are responsible for over 90% of the violence in our 21st century from what I've read.

    Muslims violently conquered much of Africa, the middle east, Persia, parts of Asia, Turkey, most of spain, parts of France, slaughtered countless Lebanese, countless Israelis, countless Syrians, countless Egyptians, countless Samolians, Armenian genocide, genocide in Iraq, killed countless people in India, and cause bloodbaths in most countries that reach a Muslim-majority.

    Islam spread through violence and bloodshed. And Islam causes the most violent conflicts and civil wars in the 21st century!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    13,799
    Ratings:
    +8,135
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    No it was not cherry picking.

    I was not talking about who has been more violent in the past. Then I agree we definitely can't exclude these
    Also when understanding why all violence is happening, we can't exclude these

    BUT I was just saying that the physical torture in Muslim countries is not suitable in this age IMO. Too barbaric. Just don't torture, that's all.

    Personally I believe that Christians contribute to many troubles by evangelizing in Muslim countries thereby angering them. Bad karma. I don't even blame ISIS for what they do. I blame the ones who angered the Muslims in the first place. But I don't know who did it first.

    But personally I do'nt need to know all history. I rather see the problems solved in the present. Thinking about the past helps to understand. Then act.
     
  13. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,672
    Ratings:
    +10,296
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    We need to consider that Quranic and Mosaic law were revealed to tribal peoples in relatively primative times. There was no recourse to prisons, correctional facilities, or rehabilitation programmes as we have available now. So for the serial offender it was a better alternative to cut off a hand for theft rather than executing as other cultures did.

    I don't think anyone would disagree that theft is criminal behaviour. The issue is what are the appropriate consequences. Clearly not those in the Quran and Torah that were designed for very different societies.

    The problem with having a liberal society with too much freedom and too few restriction is that everyone pays the price, not just the individual. The alcoholics, drug addicts, criminals, and unplanned pregnancies affect us all. They are behaviours that are harmful, not just for the individual, but for the community too. Therefore I think we do need laws around drug and alcohol use, sexual behaviour, and criminal behaviour. Once again, any punishments or consequences as outlined in the Quran or OT are simply not appropriate for these modern times.
     
    #293 Dawnofhope, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,542
    Ratings:
    +8,653
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Your neglecting the fact that the Holocaust was just a continuation of the pogroms against the Jews, and carried out by predominantly Christians. Have you ever read Martin Luther's "The Jews & their Lies" Hitler patterned his holocaust on this:

    From: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot

    What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

    First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

    There is more . . .
     
    #294 shunyadragon, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    I've read that.

    Martin Luther was a vile creature imo

    That is as disgusting as some of the Islamic leaders who describe Jews as "Baboons, monkeys, pigs, and scum of the earth!"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,542
    Ratings:
    +8,653
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Than do not go scapegoating atheist etc for the ones only responsible for the holocaust.
     
  17. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    I never did that! I simply said some Nazis were atheists and Nazis killed more Christians than Jews.
     
  18. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,672
    Ratings:
    +10,296
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Let's examine what your article says:

    It starts off:

    Most recent civil wars have taken place in Muslim countries, and a large majority of the victims are Muslims. This is not a “clash of civilizations.” It is a battle within the Muslim world.

    This is important to realize. A large element is Sunni fighting Shi'ite. An analogy would be the Prostetants fighting the Catholics in Europe.

    Interstate wars — wars between nations — are now rare, and civil wars are now largely concentrated in an arc from Central Africa to the Caucasus. As you can see in the map below, in most of the countries in this conflict zone, Muslims are in a majority. Smaller armed conflicts occur in 30-odd countries more widely spread over the globe.

    This is real progress for humanity considering the twentieth century was perhaps the most violent in history. At least we are not talking any genuine threat of an Islamic nation or group of Islamic nations invading your country or mine in the name of Allah. They are fighting themselves and its not all about religion. Its about who gets to govern and how.

    War and civil war have decreased — leaving, primarily, fighting in Muslim countries


    As the Human Security Report and books by Joshua Goldstein and Steven Pinker have compellingly argued, war around the world has been declining, both within and between countries. There’s been a recent uptick in violence, particularly in Syria, but the violence in Syria doesn’t match what we saw in Korea and Vietnam.

    Once again, great news that war overall (whether betwen nations or within nations) is on the decline. Before it was the communists, now it is the Muslims.

    The remaining civil wars — which scholars define as armed conflicts that claim more than 1,000 battle deaths in a calendar year — are fewer in number but more concentrated geographically, as we show in a recent article in Research & Politics. Although armed violence has been declining overall since the end of the Cold War, violence has spiked since 2011 — particularly in Muslim countries.

    Overall numbers of casualties with the exception of Syria are relatively low. Syrian casualties were fewer than Veitnam and Korea. Lets get some perspective here.

    In 2012, there were six civil wars worldwide. All took place within Muslim countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen. Of the nine rebel groups in these conflicts, seven had an Islamist ideology.


    While 2012 was an extreme year, a large majority of all civil wars in the past decade have taken place in Muslim-majority countries. That’s a recent phenomenon. It wasn’t true during the Cold War, when Muslim countries were no more likely to host civil wars than other nations.

    So Islamic ideology is certainly a significant factor. Then again, it is a relatively recently that Muslim coutries have warranted our attention as during the cold war, communism was a much greater concern.

    But since the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, civil wars have declined sharply in most parts of the globe — although less so in Muslim countries. Many of the civil wars that ended after the end of the Cold War were stimulated by rivalry between the two superpowers.


    And so even though civil wars among Muslims have increased in the past few years, the decline of other types of conflict is the main reason why the global map of conflict is increasingly influenced by Islamist insurgencies and civil wars in Muslim countries.


    Muslims are mainly fighting one another, not the West


    While attacks on non-Muslims understandably get more Western media attention, the vast majority of Islamist insurgencies are fighting governments in Muslim-majority countries. In fact, over the past three years, more than 90 percent of the victims in all civil wars are in Muslim countries — particularly in Syria, but also in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Only a minority of the world’s Muslims are living amid civil wars

    Let’s be clear: Not all of the world’s Muslims live in countries with civil war. In fact, most of them do not. Among the 10 countries with the largest Muslim populations, only three — Pakistan, Nigeria and Iraq — saw civil war in 2014. (That’s the last year for which the Uppsala Conflict Data Program has data.)

    The other seven — including Indonesia, India, Bangladesh and Egypt, four of the five countries with the world’s largest Muslim populations — haven’t faced civil war for a decade or more. They may not necessarily be peaceful — certainly countries such as India and Egypt have seen their share of turmoil that has turned violent at times — but that violence hasn’t been sufficiently severe to be defined as a civil war, an armed conflict with at least 1,000 battle-related deaths in a calendar year.


    The article then provides some constructive though inconclusive analysis of why this we are seeing the violence in some Muslims countries. Are we on the same page?


     
  19. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,553
    Ratings:
    +4,733
    Religion:
    Shintopathic
    Muslims have been very violent from the Moors, the Ottoman Empire, the Taliban, the Armenian genocide, the Arabs ganging up on Israel from its founding, the six day war, the Yom Kippur war, the lebanon conflict, invasion of Kuwait, war between Iran and Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Congo, war in India, constant war in Somalia, civil war in afghanistan before American involvement, the Sunni Shiite clashes, and beyond.

    My issue is not Muslims invading America. My issue is the countless millions robbed of their liberties as we speak!
     
  20. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,672
    Ratings:
    +10,296
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What about it?

    Christians have a longer history of violence too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

    WWI was nation against nation for God, King and country.

    WWII we've already discussed the role of Christians in the holocaust.

    Buddhism and Hinduism haven't been free from blood shed either.

    And if you want to join the atheists, we can talk about communism.

    That article you posted was actually incredibly optimistic about the declining levels of violence overall in the twenty first century. I'm a glass half-full kinds guy. How about you?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...