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Why I left Baptist Christianity and ultimately Christianity itself

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
For all intent and purpose, you just called MLK Jr. a house negro. I am familiar with the line of rhetoric and am not impressed. If it is a lack of knowledge then it is curable. I am not trying to take anything away from community leaders who advocated a different approach. Nor do I want my post to detract from your OP. The man deserves respect for what he helped accomplish. If you disagree with his method, that is okay. But I can see no reason to suggest what your above post suggests.

I find it odd someone not of my community to tell me what I lack when it comes to my own community...I've existed on this planet for 36 years and 35 years of that was involved in my community. I'm not taking anything away from Doctor King, but when it comes to passive protest many hardliners have considered his approach to be aligned with the "house negro." Considering at a time in the church many pastors encouraged their parishioners to "turn the other cheek" other civil rights leaders like Malcolm X talked about defending yourselves. I'm sorry I aligned myself with this method. I choose to align myself with the God given biological makeup of "fight or flight" and I choose not to flee. This kind of passive message continues to be taught. Considering that I grew up in the inner city being passive was not an option. But as I said to Jay this is why MLK's message is more palatable cross culturally. MLK did not challenge the status quo like Malcolm did.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I find it odd someone not of my community to tell me what I lack when it comes to my own community...I've existed on this planet for 36 years and 35 years of that was involved in my community. I'm not taking anything away from Doctor King, but when it comes to passive protest many hardliners have considered his approach to be aligned with the "house negro." Considering at a time in the church many pastors encouraged their parishioners to "turn the other cheek" other civil rights leaders like Malcolm X talked about defending yourselves. I'm sorry I aligned myself with this method. I choose to align myself with the God given biological makeup of "fight or flight" and I choose not to flee. This kind of passive message continues to be taught. Considering that I grew up in the inner city being passive was not an option. But as I said to Jay this is why MLK's message is more palatable cross culturally. MLK did not challenge the status quo like Malcolm did.
BS you are not "taking anything away from Doctor King." You alluded to a speech that was very much taking away from Doctor King, the day after the anniversary of his death nonetheless. It was disrespectful. You can pretend that it wasn't all you want. The comments made by Malcom X may have had relevance in that time period but not now. There is no reason to imply that MLK Jr was a house negro.

I am however satisfied that it is a lack of knowledge that spurs such comments. Hopefully you can remedy this one day.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
All religions have their fair share.....

Look, the reason at least one of the main why I never wanted to pursue Judaism is purely based on my experiences as a young child. My uncle married a Jewish woman and bore my two twin cousins. This woman whose name I've forgotten did not want my cousins interacting with their "black side" even after the passing of my grand-father. She influenced my uncle to sell the house of my grand-mother after she passed regardless of the disagreement of his siblings including my mother. Even when my mother had died my uncle still couldn't bury the hatchet and come to his own sister's funeral despite knowing my mother had died. Because of this I could never join a faith that dictates who can and cannot marry, this includes Islam.

Any religion whose sacred text is something foreign to me or not of my language I choose not to get involved or convert. Just as Islamic eschatology states "the language of Jannah is Arabic," I strongly disagree as I believe this promotes cultural superiority. I rather appreciate faiths as what they are without being involved in them.
What in your view is the best non fundamentalist commentary\book on Quran. I do not find Islam very attractive, I would like to change that perception of mine.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
BS you are not "taking anything away from Doctor King." You alluded to a speech that was very much taking away from Doctor King, the day after the anniversary of his death nonetheless. It was disrespectful. You can pretend that it wasn't all you want. The comments made by Malcom X may have had relevance in that time period but not now. There is no reason to imply that MLK Jr was a house negro.

I am however satisfied that it is a lack of knowledge that spurs such comments. Hopefully you can remedy this one day.

I'm really not concerned by your criticism. I live here. I've experienced so-called black preachers and their passive roles in the black community. It's not ignorance it is keeping it real. Perhaps you'd like to take a page from the perspective of African-American critique from within in the following link, better yet, I'll copy and paste it here and explain:

"Many African Americans, who are rightfully demoralized by the state of African American affairs, have concluded that historically Christianity [the religion], and the African-American church have contributed greatly to the bad state of African American affairs. While I understand this conclusion, I offer another perspective...."

The article continues to discuss good theology and bad theology, and the article concedes that Dr. King's vision was good theology because it relates to the liberating message of Jesus Christ. The article continues:


"I asked Trinity United Church of Christ’s Pastor Emeritus, Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., for his thoughts on the topic of the interplay between bad theology and the seeming collective passivity of the African American community in addressing the issues that plague our communities. As a scholar and theologian, who is a seminary professor, and as a former pastor with a 36 year ministry of empowerment and uplift of the African American community, his insights are profound and inspire much critical thought. He states:

Bad theology teaches Blacks to just pray and wait for God to do things that they could and should do for themselves.

Bad theology teaches Blacks that it is God’s will for them to suffer.

Bad theology teaches and reinforces white supremacy and black inferiority.

Bad theology supported the European Slave Trade and the institution of Chattel Slavery in the U.S.

Bad theology endorsed apartheid in South Africa...."

yourblackworld.net/2012/03/02/bad-theology-keeps-the-african-american-community-passive/

Diverting away from the singling out of MLK (since this thread isn't about him) this is the main issue of the black church which has become unattractive to me. the church has become passive-aggressive. You cannot tell me what to feel about certain leaders of the black church. I grew up in it. I was baptized in it. I even watched my own mother collapse on the church floor begging for God to cure her and she still died so no, you don't tell me how to feel about leaders in the community especially when it comes to so-called Christian leaders. There is plenty of work to be done and most of these leaders pray for problems to go away instead of addressing them head on. The church in this case is weak and limp wristed.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Yes but the particular type of rejoicing in these churches reflect the paradigm of internalized slavery. This actually covers some of my final course material such as critical race theory.

Song and dance relates to African slavery and of course with the adaptation of Christianity, these particular types of behavior such as change in tempo of music, singing of Christian songs etcetera, all relate to African history during slavery. Although the praising of God is fine, it is quite grandiose in the black church. I was more focused on the pastor yelling majority of the time than learning the material. Am I there to learn, or am I there to somewhat learn but more so dance and shout. Glorifying God does not necessarily mean you have to yell and dance. Glorifying God comes in different forms, it is just that this particular form was uncomfortable for me as a child.
I'm not trying to invalidate your initial point. It's well thought out and articulate. It just that being a white dude that I see this from a different perspective. I find it hard to rejoice in the presence of God in a somber dour atmosphere. I think that most churches of any denomination only have a handful of services goers who really understand anything. I think this might be true in your experiences.

I'm just saying I would rather hear Edwin Hawkins version of Oh Happy Day than the Bumfart Methodist Church's 80 year old choir members.
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
What in your view is the best non fundamentalist commentary\book on Quran. I do not find Islam very attractive, I would like to change that perception of mine.

You're really asking the wrong person....But I'd recommending a couple books to read

1) By well respected British author Karen Armstrong:

Breu història de l'islam

2) Yusuf Ali (The Meaning of The Holy Qur'an)

or

3) Marmaduke Pickthall's English Translation of the meaning of the Holy Qur'an
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm really not concerned by your criticism. I live here. I've experienced so-called black preachers and their passive roles in the black community. It's not ignorance it is keeping it real. Perhaps you'd like to take a page from the perspective of African-American critique from within in the following link, better yet, I'll copy and paste it here and explain:

"Many African Americans, who are rightfully demoralized by the state of African American affairs, have concluded that historically Christianity [the religion], and the African-American church have contributed greatly to the bad state of African American affairs. While I understand this conclusion, I offer another perspective...."

The article continues to discuss good theology and bad theology, and the article concedes that Dr. King's vision was good theology because it relates to the liberating message of Jesus Christ. The article continues:


"I asked Trinity United Church of Christ’s Pastor Emeritus, Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., for his thoughts on the topic of the interplay between bad theology and the seeming collective passivity of the African American community in addressing the issues that plague our communities. As a scholar and theologian, who is a seminary professor, and as a former pastor with a 36 year ministry of empowerment and uplift of the African American community, his insights are profound and inspire much critical thought. He states:

Bad theology teaches Blacks to just pray and wait for God to do things that they could and should do for themselves.

Bad theology teaches Blacks that it is God’s will for them to suffer.

Bad theology teaches and reinforces white supremacy and black inferiority.

Bad theology supported the European Slave Trade and the institution of Chattel Slavery in the U.S.

Bad theology endorsed apartheid in South Africa...."

yourblackworld.net/2012/03/02/bad-theology-keeps-the-african-american-community-passive/

Diverting away from the singling out of MLK (since this thread isn't about him) this is the main issue of the black church which has become unattractive to me. the church has become passive-aggressive. You cannot tell me what to feel about certain leaders of the black church. I grew up in it. I was baptized in it. I even watched my own mother collapse on the church floor begging for God to cure her and she still died so no, you don't tell me how to feel about leaders in the community especially when it comes to so-called Christian leaders. There is plenty of work to be done and most of these leaders pray for problems to go away instead of addressing them head on. The church in this case is weak and limp wristed.
Your criticism of religion or black Christian churches was not that to which I responded. Rather, I responded to your response where you essentially call MLK Jr. A house negro. If you want to move away from that discussion, then great. I have no other qualms.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Apparently you are unaware of the African-American lingo we use in our community concerning the concepts of the "field negro" and the "house negro." ...
Apparently you feel justified in jumping to baseless conclusions.

I think one of the things I like about the Nation of Islam (with the exclusion of extremist rhetoric of black nationalism), is that African-Americans were self-taught discipline and relied on each other instead of other people as allies. ...
And one of the things I despise about the Nation of Islam is addressed by Wikipedia and the SPLC.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am thankful I didn't get absorbed into a denominational religion but rather began a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
But a "denominational religion" is neither intrinsically good nor bad, moral nor immoral. Even such nondenominational religions teach what they think is right, much like denominational religions do.

Pretty much all Christian denominations teach one should have "a relationship with God through Jesus Christ". Matter of fact, I don't know of one that doesn't.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But a "denominational religion" is neither intrinsically good nor bad, moral nor immoral. Even such nondenominational religions teach what they think is right, much like denominational religions do.

Pretty much all Christian denominations teach one should have "a relationship with God through Jesus Christ". Matter of fact, I don't know of one that doesn't.

That is true... Metis.

I can't say that anyone teaches the Word perfectly, not even me. But there are varying degrees of traditions that certain denominations teach which mnay hinder the message of Jesus

For an example. My wife and I had two miscarriages and she was pregnant with a third. A pastor (denominational name not necessary as I do call them my brothers) was sharing Jesus to me on a weekly basis and in doing so asked,

"Ken, would you like to receive Jesus as Lord"?

My response was, "No!". I wasn't "no" I don't ever want to but rather a "No, you haven't convinced me that truth is being shared".

He then said "Ken, if you don't, you could loose this baby". I didn't know God but I had horse sense enough that if He sent His son to die for me, He wouldn't kill the child in my wife's womb. I escorted him out of the house.

Today I realize it was just a religious teaching though he did love Jesus and did have a relationship. God is greater that our mistakes and I know that His mercy is over that pastor (probably long gone now).

But you are right, they are not intrinsically either good or bad. It is the relationship that is important
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Your criticism of religion or black Christian churches was not that to which I responded. Rather, I responded to your response where you essentially call MLK Jr. A house negro. If you want to move away from that discussion, then great. I have no other qualms.

Right. Because you had nothing better than to address something such as that. We all have opinions. I find his (MLK's) approach to civil issues passive and that is why he is remembered nationally and Malcolm is not, at least from an outgroup's perspective. Malcolm's rhetoric was aggressive, MLK's was not. MLK was perceived as passive, many leaders likened that initially as being a house negro. King allied himself with white evangelicals some who remained silent on the issues of civil rights, Malcolm did not. This is the point of mentioning MLK because like him, I have a dream to where African-Americans and other people of color would be treated as complete human beings something white evangelicals had missed in many of their sermons.

So my critique is not ignorance, it is an opiion just as I have an opinion in the form of a question why a pastor like Creflo Dollar needs a $65 million dollar jet.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Right. Because you had nothing better than to address something such as that. We all have opinions. I find his (MLK's) approach to civil issues passive and that is why he is remembered nationally and Malcolm is not, at least from an outgroup's perspective. Malcolm's rhetoric was aggressive, MLK's was not. MLK was perceived as passive, many leaders likened that initially as being a house negro. King allied himself with white evangelicals some who remained silent on the issues of civil rights, Malcolm did not. This is the point of mentioning MLK because like him, I have a dream to where African-Americans and other people of color would be treated as complete human beings something white evangelicals had missed in many of their sermons.

So my critique is not ignorance, it is an opiion just as I have an opinion in the form of a question why a pastor like Creflo Dollar needs a $65 million dollar jet.
I would say MLK was based on love and Malcolm was based on hate and thus MLK will always be remembered in a positive light.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I would say MLK was based on love and Malcolm was based on hate and thus MLK will always be remembered in a positive light.

You'd have to know where Malcolm had come from. Malcolm's father was killed suspected by some racist white men who beat him and threw him on the train tracks. Malcolm's family through the state was parceled out where Malcolm was sent to a group home. as a child Malcolm was called the N-word all the time:

"In fact, I got called a n***er so much, I thought it was my name."

Malcolm was a pimp and a hustler who went to jail and came out a prolific speaker and writer. He copied the entire dictionary while in jail and what is quite ironic is that Malcolm was quite the intellectual. He even wanted to be a lawyer and guess what happened?


All that being said what people know of him was his time during the Nation of Islam. Malcolm's aggression was nothing more than the same mirror aggression that was towards African-Americans during that time. That is why Malcolm seemed hateful. Well image the hate people like my grand-father received?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You'd have to know where Malcolm had come from. Malcolm's father was killed suspected by some racist white men who beat him and threw him on the train tracks. Malcolm's family through the state was parceled out where Malcolm was sent to a group home. as a child Malcolm was called the N-word all the time:

"In fact, I got called a n***er so much, I thought it was my name."

Malcolm was a pimp and a hustler who went to jail and came out a prolific speaker and writer. He copied the entire dictionary while in jail and what is quite ironic is that Malcolm was quite the intellectual. He even wanted to be a lawyer and guess what happened?


All that being said what people know of him was his time during the Nation of Islam. Malcolm's aggression was nothing more than the same mirror aggression that was towards African-Americans during that time. That is why Malcolm seemed hateful. Well image the hate people like my grand-father received?
What Malcolm experienced is nothing different than any other black person of that time.

What happens to you can't be prevented at that moment (generally speaking)... how your respond to what happens to you is totally under your control MLK was controlled by Jesus and thus his response what love. Since Malcolm didn't have Jesus, his response was hatred.

Jesus said respond with good when evil is done. Malcolm chose a different direction.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Malcolm X changed significantly, and much for the better imo, when he left the "Nation of Islam" and actually converted to Islam. His hatred turned more to love, and he ended up dying because of that.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The development of my Agnostic-Theism is actually an interesting one because it was spurred on by the history of the Baptist church as practiced in many of the black communities across the United States. Unlike evangelical Christianity which is composed of majority white parishioners, Baptist Christianity appears to be antithetical on the surface. The churches are filled with old black women with big colorful hats which are reminiscent of our relationship with African ancestry. Not to mention the music tempo, as the pastor preaches the gospel and begins to elevate his voice, the music tempo also changes and elevates where the whole entire church breaks out in song. Many times as a child I considered church nothing more than a concert and many times I couldn't wait to leave and get Sunday food and watch movies.

Like evangelical Christianity, many black parishioners swear by the "blood of Jesus" that they are saved due to their acknowledgment that Jesus died on the cross and rose after three days to ascend to himself--this I still never understood nor is this thread about that particular Christian metaphysical phenomena. As I got older and studied more about religions themselves I began to have a more worldview about the historicity regarding various world religions. When it came to Christianity as it relates to African diaspora it became even more clear that many Africans and African-Americans have what I call a "hand me down" form of Christianity. Historically many Africans were animists and polytheists and some were Muslim and some were Christian. But looking back and reflecting the transatlantic slave trade which began on the western portion of Africa, many Africans did not have a Christian background. Many Africans actually practiced the religion of their forefathers.

Through forceful acclimation of the English language as well as the religion of their new "masters," Africans accepted their fate, and began practicing their form of Christianity in relationship to themselves. Jubilation is the baseline of all so-called "black churches." Singing and hollering and speaking in tongues in my view are acquired forms of hysteria. I tend to think these things as I've seen in the church are learned as some sort of congregational phenomena. I could be wrong though, maybe some of these people are experiencing the "holy spirit," but I tend to think the Holy Spirit does not make you do a crip walk (a dance performed by crip gang members) in the isles because you are in "the spirit."

I saw Baptist Christianity as nothing more than a religious substitute to mask the pain and anguish many older blacks in my community have experienced. To make African-Americans passive was seen as good because the slave should not think of their oppression as bad, but in their best interest and to adopt the religion of their oppressor is good because their previous faith and the performances of worship of that faith is barbarism and wrong--at least that is how it is historically presented. Sure, black churches are fun to attend because people are proactive in the sermons. People sing, dance, and shout in praise of God, not to mention the services are always late when it is time to go. But as the doors open and people leave the same people that shout the praises of God are the very ones that go back to sleeping with the pastor. This also includes stealing from others, lying on others, talking behind others' back and even sleeping with other married people.

Sure this is no different than any other community but when you observe the black church as I have, there appears to be a haven of hypocrisy just like its white evangelical counterpart. The "I'm saved and I'm a sinner" seems to be the go to phrase most if not all Christians tend to regurgitate. It is almost like a psychological reassurance to mitigate the gravity of the sin(s) they've committed. But despite all this, what really drew me away from the church and ultimately this religious community are those that are continuously judgmental. Black Baptist Christians are literalists and in the Bible (I forgot which chapter and verse) there is something somewhere that apparently states that believers in Christ are to judge others if they do not believe Jesus died and rose. Of course the go to verse many Christians use is the one that says "nobody can come to the father except through the son."

Like any conditional deity Jesus' love is masqueraded through the condition of believing in his existence, his death, and his resurrection and his deification. Unfortunately the fervor of the black church was so much that when I did have a crisis of faith instead of nourishing my need for intellectual growth and help create a relationship between my increasing secular attitude with my spiritual one, I was chastised and condemned as being of the devil. The whole "I'm going to pray for you" rather being something genuine, became an insult. I was told I was going to hell if I did not repent. The irony of it all is that going back to the oppressed loving his/her oppressor was ultimately the plan to quell a potential slave rebellion and it worked for generations. The passivity that has been imparted in the black community is one of the reasons why many African-Americans continue to struggle. But it is also one of the reasons why we idolize some African-Americans today a prime example is MLK.

We celebrate MLK not just because he is a prolific speaker but because he was seen as a passive entity who although marched for civil rights, he dared not "speak directly to the white man." This is why Malcolm X was out and MLK was in because he was seen as the "good negro" while Malcolm being outspoken on civil rights and systemic racism directly to the face of the oppressor, was seen as hostile and violent. But Malcolm X was no more violent than the very people he spoke out against. The example of king is what you see in many black Baptist churches today. Baptist Christianity thus became unappealing to me, a sort of cultural adaptation that shouldn't have been adopted. As a single man who couldn't find a nice girl to have companionship with I was told to seek them out in the church and not surprising they are the worse ones! Eventually I left and never looked back. My blackness is still there but the religiosity was not. But nonetheless there will be more black parishioners who still tithe and give their money to the likes of Creflo Dollar and other pimp pastors because as I've mentioned earlier the psychology of passivity as passed down from oppressor to oppressed is a generational phenomena that I chose to remove in the form of shackles.

I sincerely appreciate your candor and how you speak from the heart here. However, respectfully, there is a real issue, and it isn't pimp pastors, cultural appropriation or oppression, or the hypocrisy of some and not all Christians:

Did Jesus Christ die for sin and rise from the dead in victory?

"Many times as a child I considered church nothing more than a concert and many times I couldn't wait to leave and get Sunday food and watch movies."

I've yet to meet an atheist or agnostic who formerly attended church who said, "Jesus Christ and I were in a great relationship at church and then I walked away from Him." A real church is more than a concert and includes people of all colors who love Jesus Christ.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Right. Because you had nothing better than to address something such as that. We all have opinions. I find his (MLK's) approach to civil issues passive and that is why he is remembered nationally and Malcolm is not, at least from an outgroup's perspective. Malcolm's rhetoric was aggressive, MLK's was not. MLK was perceived as passive, many leaders likened that initially as being a house negro. King allied himself with white evangelicals some who remained silent on the issues of civil rights, Malcolm did not. This is the point of mentioning MLK because like him, I have a dream to where African-Americans and other people of color would be treated as complete human beings something white evangelicals had missed in many of their sermons.

So my critique is not ignorance, it is an opiion just as I have an opinion in the form of a question why a pastor like Creflo Dollar needs a $65 million dollar jet.
And at the time those criticisms were relevant because the was a power struggle over the movement. Malcom viewed oppressive white government as using the Big 6 to control the movement. Consequently he chose rhetoric to discourage meeting violence with non-violence. Criticizing MLK Jr. Is not the problem, your method of criticizing him is. It would be very different MLK Jr was alive and you had a reason to attack his blackness. This is not the case. He is dead. You can criticize still, but there is no cause for the disrespect; he is gone. That you would parrot such messages in anew inappropriate time suggests you lack the understanding of why those messages were important in the time they were given. If you think you can formulate an argument for why such a disrespectful comparison is useful today then I am all ears.

To imply that MLK Jr. was a race traitor is extremely disrespectful. He, like Malcom X, put his life on the line. Yep, obviously a traitor.

Regarding the mainstream respect for MLK Jr. Over Malcom X, (who is remembered): you could blame his passivity. Or, you could look at his message. While Malcom X had a good and necessary message and was an extremely intelligent man, his message was also colored by his religion. And, had those in the group not assassinated him, he likely would have gone on to be even more well regarded, as his split with the NOI shifted some of his views, (or perhaps allowed him to speak more freely). But as he was murdered, much of his political life is remembered as being against integration and holding racist ideology.

The truth is that both all of these reasons are in part why Malcom X receives less acclaim. Disagreement about the amount of claim each of these remarkable men are afforded is very different than implying that one of them should be afforded disrespect.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I would say MLK was based on love and Malcolm was based on hate and thus MLK will always be remembered in a positive light.
His message was not one of hate. His message was that power is only checked by power. And he was angry, rightfully so.

I think if you believe he preached hate, it is because of a lack of understanding.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Malcolm X changed significantly, and much for the better imo, when he left the "Nation of Islam" and actually converted to Islam. His hatred turned more to love, and he ended up dying because of that.
Yes and no. I am not sure "change" is the right word. Some of his views changed but his core message did not. I am not sure what you mean here, but I often hear people think that when he left NOI he all of a sudden became MLK Jr-like. This is not so.
 
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