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Why I left Baptist Christianity and ultimately Christianity itself

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Isn't modern liberal strands of Judaism more progressive than any in Islam? Judaism is Tawhid too.
Though I would welcome if a progressive strand of Islam begins to flourish. Current atmosphere is against this from happening though.

The best monotheism I have come across is Sikhism. Its something you should take a look at.

There are progressive strands of Islam (Kalam) is one of them. The problem with thinking outside the box in Islam is that some people impart there own thinking in Quranic doctrine and to interpret said verses and principles in accordance with their own thinking. Some people have good intentions, others had divergent intentions. As far as the "best monotheism" I don't see how you look at it in ways of competing. From what you just wrote it seems you have a very limited understanding of Islam much less have had limited to none personal interaction with Muslims.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Exactly. They'll use their religion as a means by which to judge and condemn others, but when confronted with their own hypocrisies and general failure to practice what they preach, they pull the "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" card.

Coming from a heathen, it means a lot.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Hey Epic, I read that whole thing (unusual for me), because it was very, very interesting and touched a nerve (in more of us than want to admit it I'm sure). Thank you. :):)

I, by-the-way, am roughly the hue of Tom Sawyer's fence, - after.

Thanks! just sharing my thoughts. I know for some other person their experience was different but it was something that I really haven't talked about in, well, ever!
 

InChrist

Free4ever
It is definitely discouraging to see or experience a judgmental attitude from those who claim the name of Christ and claim to be righteous, yet live in hypocrisy.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is definitely discouraging to see or experience a judgmental attitude from those who claim the name of Christ and claim to be righteous, yet live in hypocrisy.
Matthew 7[5]:
You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye,
and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.



The above is addressed to you as being one who has been cited many times for judging others.

You can't have it both ways, and the "judging" by some of us here is not any kind of personal judgment towards anyone else. Instead, it's a judgment of a holier-than-Thou approach of many of those who claim to be "saved" and yet all too often act as if morals really don't matter.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Matthew 7[5]:
You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye,
and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.



The above is addressed to you as being one who has been cited many times for judging others.

You can't have it both ways, and the "judging" by some of us here is not any kind of personal judgment towards anyone else. Instead, it's a judgment of a holier-than-Thou approach of many of those who claim to be "saved" and yet all too often act as if morals really don't matter.

I do not judge, or at least I try not to judge another person's heart or motives. I do compare belief systems or organized religions to the Bible to determine whether they are true or false according to the scriptures.

I don't know what you mean by "morals don't really matter", since I believe they do. Nevertheless, I don't call people out on this forum and point out their sin at all, much less, doing so while practicing sin in my own life...which is hypocrisy and which is the point of the verse you have highlighted...


"What this means is that the greater judgment is reserved for the one who has purposefully overlooked his own mammoth sin while pointing out the smaller sins of others. Jesus emphatically says this must change, so he gives two commands: Stop judging others in a hypocritical fashion, and get the sin out of your own life.

Yet let’s be clear. Jesus is not suggesting that we have no right to make moral judgments about human behavior, and he is certainly not suggesting we have no right to hold others accountable. He doesn’t condemn mutual accountability and moral responsibility and the need to address sin in the church—he addresses hypocrisy.'

Judging Others: A Closer Look at Matthew 7:1
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
...I chose to remove in the form of shackles.

Interesting thing is that Jesus says:

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

Let’s hope you are free indeed. :)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I have no doubt.
Reminds me of a, stall, table display, whatever it's called at a local 4H fair, where in a barn they have rows of tables set up, with mostly businesses using the space to advertise. But there is one church group who has a spot, and they'll ask people if they are saved or not, and ask if someone if they are going to Heaven or not. A food bank here asked one of my clients if she "has a church affiliation yet." It would be interesting to compare Black and White Baptists, but I suspect we'd be looking at two piles of the same manure, just dyed different colors. "Once saved, always saved" and "I'm just forgiven" for both groups might even be the top two excuses to self-pardon poor behaviors.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I like a little foolishness. Compared to some pasty white dour services I've attended, I prefer a livelier atmosphere. God should be rejoiced in.

Yes but the particular type of rejoicing in these churches reflect the paradigm of internalized slavery. This actually covers some of my final course material such as critical race theory.

Song and dance relates to African slavery and of course with the adaptation of Christianity, these particular types of behavior such as change in tempo of music, singing of Christian songs etcetera, all relate to African history during slavery. Although the praising of God is fine, it is quite grandiose in the black church. I was more focused on the pastor yelling majority of the time than learning the material. Am I there to learn, or am I there to somewhat learn but more so dance and shout. Glorifying God does not necessarily mean you have to yell and dance. Glorifying God comes in different forms, it is just that this particular form was uncomfortable for me as a child.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The development of my Agnostic-Theism is actually an interesting one because it was spurred on by the history of the Baptist church as practiced in many of the black communities across the United States. Unlike evangelical Christianity which is composed of majority white parishioners, Baptist Christianity appears to be antithetical on the surface. The churches are filled with old black women with big colorful hats which are reminiscent of our relationship with African ancestry. Not to mention the music tempo, as the pastor preaches the gospel and begins to elevate his voice, the music tempo also changes and elevates where the whole entire church breaks out in song. Many times as a child I considered church nothing more than a concert and many times I couldn't wait to leave and get Sunday food and watch movies.

Like evangelical Christianity, many black parishioners swear by the "blood of Jesus" that they are saved due to their acknowledgment that Jesus died on the cross and rose after three days to ascend to himself--this I still never understood nor is this thread about that particular Christian metaphysical phenomena. As I got older and studied more about religions themselves I began to have a more worldview about the historicity regarding various world religions. When it came to Christianity as it relates to African diaspora it became even more clear that many Africans and African-Americans have what I call a "hand me down" form of Christianity. Historically many Africans were animists and polytheists and some were Muslim and some were Christian. But looking back and reflecting the transatlantic slave trade which began on the western portion of Africa, many Africans did not have a Christian background. Many Africans actually practiced the religion of their forefathers.

Through forceful acclimation of the English language as well as the religion of their new "masters," Africans accepted their fate, and began practicing their form of Christianity in relationship to themselves. Jubilation is the baseline of all so-called "black churches." Singing and hollering and speaking in tongues in my view are acquired forms of hysteria. I tend to think these things as I've seen in the church are learned as some sort of congregational phenomena. I could be wrong though, maybe some of these people are experiencing the "holy spirit," but I tend to think the Holy Spirit does not make you do a crip walk (a dance performed by crip gang members) in the isles because you are in "the spirit."

I saw Baptist Christianity as nothing more than a religious substitute to mask the pain and anguish many older blacks in my community have experienced. To make African-Americans passive was seen as good because the slave should not think of their oppression as bad, but in their best interest and to adopt the religion of their oppressor is good because their previous faith and the performances of worship of that faith is barbarism and wrong--at least that is how it is historically presented. Sure, black churches are fun to attend because people are proactive in the sermons. People sing, dance, and shout in praise of God, not to mention the services are always late when it is time to go. But as the doors open and people leave the same people that shout the praises of God are the very ones that go back to sleeping with the pastor. This also includes stealing from others, lying on others, talking behind others' back and even sleeping with other married people.

Sure this is no different than any other community but when you observe the black church as I have, there appears to be a haven of hypocrisy just like its white evangelical counterpart. The "I'm saved and I'm a sinner" seems to be the go to phrase most if not all Christians tend to regurgitate. It is almost like a psychological reassurance to mitigate the gravity of the sin(s) they've committed. But despite all this, what really drew me away from the church and ultimately this religious community are those that are continuously judgmental. Black Baptist Christians are literalists and in the Bible (I forgot which chapter and verse) there is something somewhere that apparently states that believers in Christ are to judge others if they do not believe Jesus died and rose. Of course the go to verse many Christians use is the one that says "nobody can come to the father except through the son."

Like any conditional deity Jesus' love is masqueraded through the condition of believing in his existence, his death, and his resurrection and his deification. Unfortunately the fervor of the black church was so much that when I did have a crisis of faith instead of nourishing my need for intellectual growth and help create a relationship between my increasing secular attitude with my spiritual one, I was chastised and condemned as being of the devil. The whole "I'm going to pray for you" rather being something genuine, became an insult. I was told I was going to hell if I did not repent. The irony of it all is that going back to the oppressed loving his/her oppressor was ultimately the plan to quell a potential slave rebellion and it worked for generations. The passivity that has been imparted in the black community is one of the reasons why many African-Americans continue to struggle. But it is also one of the reasons why we idolize some African-Americans today a prime example is MLK.

We celebrate MLK not just because he is a prolific speaker but because he was seen as a passive entity who although marched for civil rights, he dared not "speak directly to the white man." This is why Malcolm X was out and MLK was in because he was seen as the "good negro" while Malcolm being outspoken on civil rights and systemic racism directly to the face of the oppressor, was seen as hostile and violent. But Malcolm X was no more violent than the very people he spoke out against. The example of king is what you see in many black Baptist churches today. Baptist Christianity thus became unappealing to me, a sort of cultural adaptation that shouldn't have been adopted. As a single man who couldn't find a nice girl to have companionship with I was told to seek them out in the church and not surprising they are the worse ones! Eventually I left and never looked back. My blackness is still there but the religiosity was not. But nonetheless there will be more black parishioners who still tithe and give their money to the likes of Creflo Dollar and other pimp pastors because as I've mentioned earlier the psychology of passivity as passed down from oppressor to oppressed is a generational phenomena that I chose to remove in the form of shackles.

You know, base on what you have said, I have found myself in such situations in churches that I have attended. But no longer apart of.

You know even Christ Jesus had the same situations in his time, with the religious leaders the Scribes and Pharisees and the people in his time.

You can read about this in the book of Matthew chapter 23.

if you take notice in verse 3--"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do,
But do not you, after their works,
For they say, and do not"

Verses 13,14--"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer, therefore you shall receive the greater damnation"

So it's not uncommon for us to day, to come across such religious leaders and people in our time also.

The only difference is Christ has made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Where those who follow their religious leaders are entangled with the yoke of bondage and don't even know it.

As Christ said, "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, But they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" Matthew 23:4.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The passivity that has been imparted in the black community is one of the reasons why many African-Americans continue to struggle. But it is also one of the reasons why we idolize some African-Americans today a prime example is MLK.

We celebrate MLK not just because he is a prolific speaker but because he was seen as a passive entity who although marched for civil rights, he dared not "speak directly to the white man." This is why Malcolm X was out and MLK was in because he was seen as the "good negro" while Malcolm being outspoken on civil rights and systemic racism directly to the face of the oppressor, was seen as hostile and violent. But Malcolm X was no more violent than the very people he spoke out against.
You do MLK a serious disservice. He was detested by a large percentage of whites, barely tolerated by many if not most liberals, considered a communist by many in government, and characterized as an Uncle Tom by far too many black nationalists. Yet he marched in Selma and elsewhere -- against the Klan and against the riot police and against the their dogs -- nonetheless.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are progressive strands of Islam (Kalam) is one of them. The problem with thinking outside the box in Islam is that some people impart there own thinking in Quranic doctrine and to interpret said verses and principles in accordance with their own thinking. Some people have good intentions, others had divergent intentions. As far as the "best monotheism" I don't see how you look at it in ways of competing. From what you just wrote it seems you have a very limited understanding of Islam much less have had limited to none personal interaction with Muslims.
Best means least problematic in terms of history, theology, philosophy etc.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I didn't go through that type of crisis. Basically I was in a bad situation and it was getting worse. I am thankful I didn't get absorbed into a denominational religion but rather began a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

And, yes, it began by believing He was raised from the dead and by confessing, with faith, that He was my Lord and Savior.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
You do MLK a serious disservice. He was detested by a large percentage of whites, barely tolerated by many if not most liberals, considered a communist by many in government, and characterized as an Uncle Tom by far too many black nationalists. Yet he marched in Selma and elsewhere -- against the Klan and against the riot police and against the their dogs -- nonetheless.

Apparently you are unaware of the African-American lingo we use in our community concerning the concepts of the "field negro" and the "house negro." It is okay I'll show you a video that encapsulates the idea thus relating to the lukewarm reception of MLK versus Malcolm X in the following:


Sure MLK was hated just like every other outspoken black leader, but prior to Malcolm X finding orthodox Islam, he dared to speak out against systemic racism in the face of those in power. A lot of church leaders were afraid of retaliation at the time as well as common folk. I encourage you to look at the story of Emmitt Till. That story is true. Many African-Americans during my grand fathers time had to step off the sidewalk to let whites pass or walk across the street. Address whites as yes sir or no ma'am while African-American men as old as my grand-father were referred to as "boy." The black churches during these times continued passive rhetoric because there was always a hope in a savior via Jesus. African-Americans who were avid churchgoers looked to others to help them or prayed for their "oppressor."

I think one of the things I like about the Nation of Islam (with the exclusion of extremist rhetoric of black nationalism), is that African-Americans were self-taught discipline and relied on each other instead of other people as allies. I think a lot of this contagious attitude still resides in the black churches today due to the fact that there is no sense of autonomy when it comes to religion, there is always a dependency upon pastors for spiritual success.

You said MLK marched against the klan, well Malcolm dared the klan with self-defense where many African-Americans were scared, these men were not. MLK was not prepared to be violent against his oppressor, Malcolm was this I why MLK's message is palatable whereas Malcolm's message wasn't. Irony that men of America are taught to defend themselves but people like my grand-father couldn't and were perceived as violent all because they sought to defend themselves against those that would do them harm.

Sad that you read all of what I wrote and singled out this....
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Best means least problematic in terms of history, theology, philosophy etc.

All religions have their fair share.....

Look, the reason at least one of the main why I never wanted to pursue Judaism is purely based on my experiences as a young child. My uncle married a Jewish woman and bore my two twin cousins. This woman whose name I've forgotten did not want my cousins interacting with their "black side" even after the passing of my grand-father. She influenced my uncle to sell the house of my grand-mother after she passed regardless of the disagreement of his siblings including my mother. Even when my mother had died my uncle still couldn't bury the hatchet and come to his own sister's funeral despite knowing my mother had died. Because of this I could never join a faith that dictates who can and cannot marry, this includes Islam.

Any religion whose sacred text is something foreign to me or not of my language I choose not to get involved or convert. Just as Islamic eschatology states "the language of Jannah is Arabic," I strongly disagree as I believe this promotes cultural superiority. I rather appreciate faiths as what they are without being involved in them.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Apparently you are unaware of the African-American lingo we use in our community concerning the concepts of the "field negro" and the "house negro." It is okay I'll show you a video that encapsulates the idea thus relating to the lukewarm reception of MLK versus Malcolm X in the following:


Sure MLK was hated just like every other outspoken black leader, but prior to Malcolm X finding orthodox Islam, he dared to speak out against systemic racism in the face of those in power. A lot of church leaders were afraid of retaliation at the time as well as common folk. I encourage you to look at the story of Emmitt Till. That story is true. Many African-Americans during my grand fathers time had to step off the sidewalk to let whites pass or walk across the street. Address whites as yes sir or no ma'am while African-American men as old as my grand-father were referred to as "boy." The black churches during these times continued passive rhetoric because there was always a hope in a savior via Jesus. African-Americans who were avid churchgoers looked to others to help them or prayed for their "oppressor."

I think one of the things I like about the Nation of Islam (with the exclusion of extremist rhetoric of black nationalism), is that African-Americans were self-taught discipline and relied on each other instead of other people as allies. I think a lot of this contagious attitude still resides in the black churches today due to the fact that there is no sense of autonomy when it comes to religion, there is always a dependency upon pastors for spiritual success.

You said MLK marched against the klan, well Malcolm dared the klan with self-defense where many African-Americans were scared, these men were not. MLK was not prepared to be violent against his oppressor, Malcolm was this I why MLK's message is palatable whereas Malcolm's message wasn't. Irony that men of America are taught to defend themselves but people like my grand-father couldn't and were perceived as violent all because they sought to defend themselves against those that would do them harm.

Sad that you read all of what I wrote and singled out this....
I hope this post comes from a lack of knowledge.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
lack of knowledge?
For all intent and purpose, you just called MLK Jr. a house negro. I am familiar with the line of rhetoric and am not impressed. If it is a lack of knowledge then it is curable. I am not trying to take anything away from community leaders who advocated a different approach. Nor do I want my post to detract from your OP. The man deserves respect for what he helped accomplish. If you disagree with his method, that is okay. But I can see no reason to suggest what your above post suggests.
 
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