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Why do you not believe in God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Redeemed of God, May 12, 2004.

  1. Redeemed of God

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    Osuwagner if this is true then what is the new Catechism? Not only that the beliefs in that catechism can be traced back to the beginning of Roman Catholicism. Oh by the way...when I said we are the true saints of God we are but there are many catholics who are saved and believe in Christ but their doctrine is messed up.
     
  2. Redeemed of God

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    Osuwagner if this is true then what is the new Catechism? Not only that the beliefs in that catechism can be traced back to the beginning of Roman Catholicism. Oh by the way...when I said we are the true saints of God we are but there are many catholics who are saved and believe in Christ but their doctrine is messed up.
     
  3. Redeemed of God

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    We could open up a new topic Roman Cathlics versus Reformers. This topic is on Why you do not believe in God? I am goin to try this one more time. God does exsist and it can be explained through creation.
    No one can deny that our complex universe is an astounding, majestic marvel. The mere contemplation of its vastness and grandeur causes our heads to spin. Yet how did it get here? Can it be, as so many scientists contend, that this all happened because of an enormous explosion? Or did it come about as the result of the careful design of an infinite God?

    Let's look briefly at two Bible passages that speak of God's revelation of Himself through nature. First, let's turn to the Old Testament book of Job. As you may recall, Job was severely tested by the devil. Like people today, he had great difficulty finding an acceptable answer to the question: How could a good God allow injustices such as pain and suffering? Here was a man who had been identified as one who truly loved God, yet his riches and his children had been taken away, and he was afflicted with boils.

    After a long period of seeking answers to his questions about God, Job finally heard directly from Him. Speaking to him out of a whirlwind, God told Job that to see Him he should look beyond his immediate difficulties and observe nature and the world around him (Job 38 ) . Let's look at some of the specifics of nature in this passage and see what conclusion they lead us to make.


    The wonder of the world's formation (vv.4-6).
    The wonder of the heavens (v.7).
    The wonder of the ocean-land balance (v.8 ) .
    The wonder of a new dawn (v.12).
    The wonder of the ocean depths (v.16).
    The wonder of the life-death cycle (v.17).
    The wonder of the origin of light (v.19).
    The wonder of an electrical storm (v.24).
    The wonder of the wind (v.24).
    The wonder of the hydrological cycle (vv.25-30).
    The wonder of animals nurturing their young (vv.39-41).
    In essence, God was saying, "In your anguish, you are asking where I am while you suffer. Look again at the world around you, and you will see Me there and be reminded of My wisdom and power." Bruce Demarest, author of General Revelation, wrote, "Through the medium of a magnificent creation, Job perceived the reality of God. Awestruck, abased, and filled with reverence at the contemplation of God in His works, Job opened his mouth and said, 'I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes' " (Job 42:5,6).

    Many of the Psalms also testify that nature gives us evidence of the existence of God. Psalm 19:1-4, for example, says that the eloquent voice of God can be heard throughout all creation. The psalmist wrote:


    The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun.
    Day and night, the psalmist said, the glory of God is made known through "the heavens" and "the firmament." And their message is available to all who will hear, for their voice goes out to all the earth and will be heard "to the end of the world."

    To provide a case in point to support the psalmist's contention, we could go in many different directions. We could address the logical improbability that life began without an outside stimulus, no matter how much time scientists postulate for such an occurrence. We could speak of the intricate pattern of the movement of the bodies in the universe--including amazing pinpoint timing of their courses in relation to one another. We could talk about the precise tilt of the earth, its exact distance from the sun, and its accurate journey through our solar system--all prerequisites for the temperate climate we enjoy.

    For the sake of brevity, let's examine only one tiny, vital part of our existence--the eye. Let's see how its complexity implies the involvement of an intelligent designer and defies the idea of random development.

    According to most people who don't believe in God, we have achieved our present physical condition on the basis of evolution. They tell us that what started as a single-celled something-or-other a few hundred million years ago has finally worked its way to humanhood. But let's consider this small organ of the body and see if it could have logically taken that evolutionary route. If it didn't, then could we reasonably deduce that it came from the hands of a Grand Designer?

    Here's the case. If you were to take away any part of the eye--the retina, for example--the eye does not work. Or subtract just the lens. No sight. The cornea? Blindness. For the eye to function, all parts must be present and functional. That in itself is a strong argument for design.

    But let's go in another direction. Let's take that concept back into the evolutionary chain. Somewhere along the way, a creature making its way to humanity would have had to begin having an eye. But how did it start? The eye couldn't have evolved, because there was nothing that would have caused a creature to begin forming a sightless eye. Since the evolutionary theory says changes come about because of adaptation, what would have caused an eyeless thing to will a useless eye into its head? How would it know it would ever need an eye that could see?

    An eye can either see or it can't. and there is no reason for a creature to develop a partial eye just so it could become a seeing eye later. So where did the eye begin? Randomly or by design? The mind-staggering intricacy of the eye and the interrelatedness of all necessary parts attests to a Designer and Creator who knew what He was doing.*

    The Bible claims that God is the source of it all. The writer of Hebrews made such an assertion when he said:


    By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible (11:3).
    That is an amazing statement. It claims that God spoke into existence the worlds of our universe--using nothing we can see for His raw materials.

    While that seems hard to believe, it makes great sense when compared with the alternative. If indeed the worlds were not made by God out of nothing, then the next-best solution is that the worlds were made by no one out of nothing. Compare the two ideas for reasonableness and see which conclusion you come to.

    *This illustration was taken from the book, The Truth: God or Evolution? by Marshall and Sandra Hall, Baker Book House, 1975.
     
  4. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    Can it be, as so many scientists contend, that this all happened because of an enormous explosion?

    The Big Bang was not an enormous explosion. Perhaps if you took the time to understand what it is the scientists are actually contending, then you can make the appropriate comments. But if you base your arguments on erroneous information, your arguments will hold no water.

    Or did it come about as the result of the careful design of an infinite God?

    I see nothing “careful” about the design of the universe, far from it in fact. If so careful a design, why does the universe appear completely stochastic?

    God told Job that to see Him he should look beyond his immediate difficulties and observe nature and the world around him

    Funny, that’s exactly what scientists do today. Yet, they are not finding gods as an answer to nature, are they?

    Let's look at some of the specifics of nature in this passage and see what conclusion they lead us to make.

    Conclusions drawn by your examples are conclusions drawn from ignorance.

    Through the medium of a magnificent creation, Job perceived the reality of God. Awestruck, abased, and filled with reverence at the contemplation of God in His works, Job opened his mouth and said, 'I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes'

    Of course, Job did not have the ability or tools to research anything, did he? His conclusion was drawn on having no evidence or facts whatsoever. Therefore, his reasoning was completely subjective.

    Many of the Psalms also testify that nature gives us evidence of the existence of God.

    Perhaps, but reality proposes there is no evidence whatsoever in nature of the existence of gods.

    According to most people who don't believe in God, we have achieved our present physical condition on the basis of evolution.

    So, does that mean the Pope does not believe in god? The church agrees with evolution.

    But let's consider this small organ of the body and see if it could have logically taken that evolutionary route. If it didn't, then could we reasonably deduce that it came from the hands of a Grand Designer?

    That is a logical fallacy. Just because A might be wrong does not make B right. C is always an option.

    For the eye to function, all parts must be present and functional. That in itself is a strong argument for design.

    Perhaps, but it is a stronger argument for evolution. One would have to ask that if by design, why does not every living thing have eyes?

    But, your ‘eye’ argument is one of many fallacious arguments against evolution. Unfortunately, the arguments stem from those who do not understand evolution or the concepts behind accumulative natural selection.

    BTW – did you know the eye has flaws? Why would your gods create a flawed organ?

    If indeed the worlds were not made by God out of nothing, then the next-best solution is that the worlds were made by no one out of nothing. Compare the two ideas for reasonableness and see which conclusion you come to.

    The flaw in this argument is the supposition that the universe was created from nothing.

    Regardless, the conclusions drawn are far in excess in favor of evolution over creationism.
     
  5. Redeemed of God

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    This was written by someone named Ken Ham
    Those arguing against creation may not even be conscious of their most basic presupposition, one which excludes God a priori, namely naturalism/materialism (everything came from matter, there is no supernatural, no prior creative intelligence).
    The following two real-life examples highlight some problems with that assumption:
    1.A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’ The young man looked at me and blurted out, ‘What was that book you recommended?’ He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations —such ‘reasoning’ destroys the very basis for reason.
    2.On another occasion, a man came to me after a seminar and said, ‘Actually, I’m an atheist. Because I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in absolutes, so I recognize that I can’t even be sure of reality.’ I responded, ‘Then how do you know you’re really here making this statement?’ ‘Good point,’ he replied. ‘What point?’ I asked. The man looked at me, smiled, and said, ‘Maybe I should go home.’ I stated, ‘Maybe it won’t be there.’ ‘Good point,’ the man said. ‘What point?’ I replied.
    This man certainly got the message. If there is no God, ultimately, philosophically, how can one talk about reality? How can one even rationally believe that there is such a thing as truth, let alone decide what it is?
     
  6. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    Slow slow slow slow WAAYYY down... how in the name of jesus mary joseph and each and everyone of those wise men on camels did you come to the conclusion that what i said was that im not a christian. please lemme know how you misintrepreted that.

    Now remember, I believe in God and Jesus. I believe very strongly. So lets watch on telling people what they believe.
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Redeemed-

    Wrong.

    By theory of evolution, a fully functional and developed eye would not have simply 'appeared' out of no where on a previouslt eyeless creature. Lets look at the real process:
    Take flatworms, for example. They bear 'sunspots'- little 'spots' on their bodies which are highly sensitive to light. These are the makings of a simple eye! Over time and through changes in environment, these simple sunspots could develop much further. Mutations occur in DNA all the time-- whether you can see and notice them or not. The beginnings of a cornea, for example, could be simply from a mutation in the DNA, which caused for extra protein to be deposited in a certain area, etc. If that mutation proved useful, then the members of the species who were holders of it would therefore thrive and reproduce more successfully, passing on those mutative tendencies towards their offspring.

    But we really are not here to debate evolution, so to get back on topic, I would like to analyze this quote:

    The universe is indeed immensely complex and astounding, I absolutely agree. However, I do not see how complexity warrants a god and a careful design. I mean, the Earth is billions of years old! If it hasn't gotten to be a little complex by now, then that's a problem!

    You look around you and you see everything working in harmony: gravity is just right, weather patterns are survivable, everything that humans and other life forms need to survive is available to us. But contemplate this: the Earth came before us. We came, as a result of conditions being right. Conditions were not altered or planned for us by an intelligent designer. So then you may say that the odds of conditions being right are too high, and that the chance human life could exist is so slim, there must be someone up there controlling things! That's not true either. As far as life on Earth being at unfathomably high odds, you have to realize, that when met with infinity, all odds disappear. For instance, lets say, just to get a number out there, that the odds of life on Earth are one billion to one. Well, considering that, by popular belief, the universe is infinate, and therfore home to billions of trillions of solar systems, all the sudden, those numbers don't seem so huge. And also, time does not exist in the vacuum that is the universe. No matter what the odds, everything is bound to happen at some 'time' or another, simply because odds of time do not exist.

    By your use of the words 'enormous explosion' to describe scientists' theories of creation, I'm gettin the feeling that you probably don't understand them. Scientific theories of creation are actually very practical, and when one looks at the evidence, very little room for questioning is left.
     
  8. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    If there is no God, ultimately, philosophically, how can one talk about reality?

    Quite simple really, hit someone in the head with a baseball bat. You most likely will split open his head and kill him. That IS reality and we CAN talk about it.

    How can one even rationally believe that there is such a thing as truth, let alone decide what it is?

    Truth is subjective and only relative to the observer. Why bother with it?
     
  9. Mr Spinkles

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    I'm still not sure why God would "carefully design" certain flies to lay their eggs in the thorax of bees, so that their young will hatch in the body and slowly eat the bee alive....if that was carefully designed, then God must be awfully sadistic.
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Well you know, Mr. Spinkles,

    The will and plan of god is much too complex to be understood by the human mind, and to question that which certainly must be there for our own good somehow, will certainly do nothing to... aw hell, who am I kidding?
     
  11. Redeemed of God

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    You guys are all blind. Every creature was perfect before sin but sin entered this world...everything changed thats why our eye can have problems, thats why there are gay people in this world, thats why you don't believe in God. I have tried to explain God but you will just not accept that he exsists. When judgement comes to this world...
    Romans 14:11&12
    11. For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    12. So then every one of us shall give account to himself.
    Receive Christ as your personal savior and you shall have eternal life!
    John 3:16 For God so loved the word, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    I've had enough arguing with you people you just won't accept what God has given you...every breath you take is from God, everything u think God knows and every verse from the Holy Bible is true. Evolution is wrong and every other religion than Christianity is wrong. I hope and pray that you come to understand the truth. I done with these forums.
     
  12. Mr Spinkles

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    Redeemed of God--

    Please don't go, I think we have much to learn from each other in a good-spirited debate :cry:

    But you have quoted the Bible here...you think the Bible is correct. Not everyone thinks the Bible is correct, just as not everyone thinks the Muslim Q'ran is correct. Assuming everything written in the Bible was Divinely inspired, then yes you are probably right. But not everyone assumes this, and therefore beleifs are open to questioning.
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Listen, Redeemed,

    No one is meaning to offend you here. You seem pretty tiffed, but you know what? It goes both ways. I'm probably just as frustrated with you as you are with me, but that's ok.

    Bottom line, I am perfectly willing to listen to what you have to say, but the only evidence you have to offer me is from a source I believe to be illegitimate. So what do you need to do? Find a new source, thats all.

    To say that every religion besides Christianity is true, is just crossing the line a bit though, I think. Do you not realize that everyone here has basically just as much faith in their individual religions as you do? In fact, even Christianity is founded on faith, and that you cannot deny. You would say in response to my questions "You just gotta have faith", but obviously, looking at all the faith filled people of other religions who are burning in hell right now, I'd say faith alone is not quite sufficient.

    And what about you? I'm sure there are people out there who say that their religion is the only one, and everyone else is toasted. How can you be so sure you are right and they are wrong?
     
  14. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    I've had enough arguing with you people you just won't accept what God has given you...every breath you take is from God, everything u think God knows and every verse from the Holy Bible is true. Evolution is wrong and every other religion than Christianity is wrong. I hope and pray that you come to understand the truth. I done with these forums.

    The only reason someone like you would want to leave these forums and be done with us is because you’re starting to question your faith. We are making sense to you and that scares the hell out of you, literally. You’re beginning to envision your entire faith based reasoning crumbling like the house of cards that it is. You know in your mind that what we say describes accurately the reality in which you live.

    Perhaps there is hope for you yet.
     
  15. amanda

    amanda Member

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    Bastet, I thought those who don't believe in God is an athiest.
     
  16. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I believe Bastet said, that she doesn't believe in 'God' in the Christian sense of word, not that she doesn't believe in a God at all. There is a HUGE difference.
     
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