1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why do you not believe in God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Redeemed of God, May 12, 2004.

  1. Redeemed of God

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    How come you don’t believe in God?
    I've grown up in a Christian home and am only 16 but I believe in God with my whole heart. He is the creator...how can you not say he is? In the God's Word (The Holy Bible) it says "The Heavens declare the glory of God." Look at the earth, look at a human being...they are so detailed. If there was no God there would be no peace. You guys might be struggling but I'm not because I believe Jesus Christ’s as my personal savior. If you don’t believe in God because he's the truth than there is no reason to be an atheist. I'm no Catholic, I'm a protestant...they are the true saints of Christ. If you don’t fully comprehend God and Jesus Christ...I am your servant for Christ sake and I will try to help you understand why there is a God.
     
  2. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,833
    Ratings:
    +189
    LMAO, this should be amusing...
     
  3. osuwagner

    osuwagner Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    17
    Ratings:
    +0
    First of all, this is an individual religion forum, so it is against the rules for you to even post what you are posting here. Secondly, you sound extremely arrogant when you just automatically assume that you are right and that we all need to be converted.

    I think that you have made a HUGE assumption when you say that we are "struggling" simply because we do not believe in an omnicient being seperate from the rest of the universe. I cannot speak for all other members of atheism, but I think that the difference between us and other religions is really just a matter of perspective. You believe that god is the infinite being, and that god created the world. I, however, believe that there was no creation, so in essence, the entire universe is the "infinite being," which follows the laws of physics and the law of cause-and-effect. I view the universe as one incredibly long mathematical equation which has no beginning nor end, it is instead just a continuous stream of events. Mathematically speaking, the we say that the first 3 dimensions (space) are infinite, and so therefore 4th dimension (time), it is infinite as well. These basic mathematical assumptions. They are equivalent to your assumption that there is an outside being. However, if you carry the logic out far enough, you'll find that it is impossible to assume both things. Because of the law of conservation of energy, energy (and therefore matter) can be neither created nor destroyed. Therefore, if time is infinite, then the same amount of energy that exists now has always existed and always will exist. It is impossible to alter it, because we are made up simply of atoms which are made up of energy and so we are only part of the equation. Every thing we do is a direct result of what has happened before us. I don't think it is necessary to create this idea that someone must have been acting upon the earth in order for it to arrive at the point it is now. Rather, I think it is mathematically impossible for us to have arrived at any other point.

    What seperates atheists from all other religions is that we dol not allow ourselves to follow a blind faith. We prove everything for ourselves step by step in order to ensure validity. I find it so hystarical how christians say they don't have to assume anything because everything in the bible is true. Yet, where in the bible does it say that everything in the bible is true? Nowhere. You had to take this as true from hearing it from someone else, and you just refuse to question it. They, in turn, had to make this assumption from whomever they were first told. When it comes down to it, the Bible was written by humans as an attempt to justify why they should be civil to each other and to try to explain the questions of existence. I'm not saying this is bad, because it certainly is true that in order for a society to exist, there needs to be some authority and motivation for people to act for the good of the group instead of just for themselves. With that said, I think that we have progressed to a point where we can try to prove things more analytically rather than just accepting something which was written 2000 years ago as fact. I think that instead of merely accepting these notions, we should instead work to prove a mathematical absolute truth which is impossible for anyone to disagree with.
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    I think most atheist at one time actually believed in God and have recieved salvation when they were younger. Why else would an atheist spend energy to prove that something doesn't exist that they don't even believe in? Doesn't make sense to me.
     
  5. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,833
    Ratings:
    +189
    Atheists, like anyone else, want to show others that their unique worldview is accurate. I don't think this is an indication of them trying to "deny God" after receiving "proof of His existance" through "salvation"... which is what I think you were trying to imply.

    If that were the case, ANYONE who is not Christian and who tries to persuade others to their world view is in the same boat (having received salvation in their youth and now trying to pretend the Christian God doesn't exist)... which I don't believe to be the case.
     
  6. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    ***MOD POST***

    There will be no debating in any of the seperate religion forums. These forums are for learning about the individual religions.


    So, instead of locking a potentially entertaining thread.... I'm going to move this to Religious Debates.... have fun guys. :goodjob:

    Maize

    8)
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    trueblood,

    I think you're right. Many atheists did indeed at one time believe in god or some sort of religion, and it is them who seek to prove their points to others, because they are the ones who have the religious backround (and therefore knowledge) to do so.

    I am offended at your comment of why atheists talk about their ideas. Why do you talk about yours? We try to disprove something we don't believe in, and yet you try to prove something you do believe in. How is that any different?

    Redeemed of God,

    How's it going? Finally, someone willing to rise to the challenge! You're giving me a break from being the one to instigate this tough argument, and so I will take you on... or down, probably.
    At any rate, work this out for me to start off: You say the Bible says that 'the heavens declare the glory of god,' yada, yada, yada. I am sure that it does, but then again, the Bible says a lot of things (I mean, it is like 1000 freakin pages, right?). The point here is, how can you be so sure that the Bible is true? Like what osuwagner was saying; there is absolutely no proof in its factuality. Do you believe in the Bible because that's what you've been taught? Funny-- I believed in Santa becasue up till I was about 7, that is what I had been taught. Do you see where I'm going here?
     
  8. Redeemed of God

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.
    The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away. For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

    There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

    There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

    The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:


    "No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."

    Scientific Accuracy
    Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:


    Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

    Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

    Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

    Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

    Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

    Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

    Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

    Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

    Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

    and many others.
    These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
    It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.
     
  9. Bastet

    Bastet Vile Stove-Toucher

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,555
    Ratings:
    +606
    :eek:mg: Are you saying that Santa doesn't exist?!? :lol:

    In regards to the topic at hand: I don't believe in 'God' in the Christian sense of the word...that doesn't automatically make me an athiest. :roll: That just makes me not a Christian. :lol:
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    A good reply, Redeemer of God,

    I do agree that the bible is accurate regarding archeology-- in fact, I view that as a rudimentary must for anything I plan on taking seriously. This is because the stories in the bible were indeed written by people of the time, and so they of anyone should have known their way around.

    However, I'm not here to debate what has been proven.

    Have you ever thought it possible that the Old Testament could have been altered to fit the New, and vice versa, therefore creating these 'fulfilled prophecies'? The evidence for that is there: the bible was complied by fallible men at the time of Constantine. Point being, those men had stock in what the common people thought and did, and so could have done a little nip and tuck to be sure everything they needed to manipulate the people was present. That's just a theory, however.

    Or what about this? Could the stories have been originally written in a fictional manner? How many weird cults are there today which try to manipulate things as to 'fulfill a prophecy'?
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    One other thing: The 'divine inspiration' point is null and void with me. There is no proof of that whatsoever.
     
  12. Redeemed of God

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
  13. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Let's alter your statement's point of view a little and see what we come up with: I think most [religious people] at one time actually believed in God when they were younger [but later began to doubt their faith]. Why else would [a religious person] spend energy to prove that something [does] exist that they [already] believe in? Doesn't make sense to me.

    :lol:
     
  14. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Mr_Spinkles from what I've read on the boards I've learned that some people here who are now atheist were once believers. Also friends I know IRL who label themselves atheist were one time believers. So my statement was based off this kind of information. Usually there is some event that happens in these peoples lives which change their beliefs. Most atheist will say "I use to go to church when I was real young" or "I was raised in a christian home" Thus some atheist are saved.

    "how can you be so sure that the Bible is true," says Ceridwen018.
    -give me a composition that is more dominance and say-so then the bible. Give me another work that each time I read it I learn something new. To me the bible is the most magical tome ever. Give me proof that Jesus never lived...that roman documents describing the charge and cruixifiction of a man in Israel for breaking Jewish Temple Laws were foraged in order to fullfill prophecy.

    Your statement of "You say the Bible says that 'the heavens declare the glory of god,' yada, yada, yada. I am sure that it does, but then again, the Bible says a lot of things"

    What do you mean by using the words yada yada yada , I'm sure it does?
    Are you saying this as an expressive of ridicule or do you mean that your certain it does, that its indisputable?
     
  15. Bastet

    Bastet Vile Stove-Toucher

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,555
    Ratings:
    +606
    A dictionary. :lol:
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    :clap:
    :lol:
    Well I use the dictonary just about every day
     
  17. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    If you don’t fully comprehend God and Jesus Christ...I am your servant for Christ sake and I will try to help you understand why there is a God

    By all means, please do so.

    But first, you'll have to provide a definition of god in which we all agree. Can you do that?
     
  18. osuwagner

    osuwagner Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    17
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well, of course there is an event which makes someone change their beliefs. Every action requires a cause. But I don't like the underlying meaning you've attached to this. You make it sound as if there is something bad which happens to an atheist which messes them up and makes them "lose their way" sort of speak. But the thing is, most atheists I know are very happy people with a natural tendency towards philosophical thought. And for many, this "event" which you speak of is not necessarily a traumitizing episode, rather, it might have been a seemingly unrelated event which led them to think, and through their thoughts, they arrived at a new conclusion. It is usally a gradual process which is achieved only through countless hours of quiet contemplation coupled with an open mind.

    Secondly, you say that most atheists used to follow a specific religion or church. Well, I don't see how this can be of any surprise. Atheism to me is more of a philosophy than a religion. It requires a mature understanding of ideas and outside philosophies for one to truly even fathom the idea of a world without an omnicient being guiding all occurences. Therefore, only a person who has grown to a certain level of maturity of thought can become an atheist.

    But the thing is, I believe this is true for any religion. I don't consider children to be true followers of whatever religion they are raised in. Instead, they are still in the learning stage and have not yet been exposed to all of the countering points of view. They are merely mimicking their parents, friends, community what have you. I don't think anyone really becomes a follower of their religion until they spend these long hours of contemplation and arrive at a conclusion. Naturally, most people are going to be prone to arriving at the same conclusion as everyone else in their environment, because social factors can be a very strong influence on a person's viewpoint. So by sheer percentages, the majority of Christian children are going to grow up to be Christian, and the majority of atheist children are going to grow up to be atheist. What separates atheism from these other religions, is that in the vast majority of cases where an individual rejects their born-into religion, they will in turn reject all other religions which rely on the assumption of a being seperate from the universe. Atheism is kinda the go-to philosophy. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that because atheists make up only about 5% of the world's population (according to some online surverys) that the majority of atheists would have been born into an alternative religion.

    And as a question to true blood,.....do you think that someone who is born into a religion other than Christianity and maintains that religion for their entire life is automatically not "saved" and is therfore going to hell? If so, do you think that atheists who were born into christianity but have since rejected it are somehow more deserving of salvation than those who were not?
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    osuwagner, many good points.

    I would like to add something on the reply to what true blood said, about atheists rejecting christianity due to some specific event in their lives. First of all, I agree with wagner that that doesn't seem to be true. Personally, it has been a long process for me with no definitive initiation. Secondly, one of my arguments against organized religion is the fact that people are much more susceptible to turning to religion during the defining moments of their lives, be them traumatic or happy. Religion seems to be a well of emotional support, even if its actual effects rival that of sugar pills for a hypochondriac. So you see it goes both ways, and I think it was a bit silly for you to point that out.

    Just because a book has 'dominace and say-so' doesn't mean its true. Just because someone is a succesful business person or foreign royalty doesn't make them a truly good person. The Bible has power only while people believe it does.

    I never said Jesus never lived-- I believe it is very possible he was simply a 'prophet' of the time (self proclaimed prophets were actually ridiculously common in that era) who struck it big. But you know what I say? Give me proof that he did live. In scientific reasoning, lack of evidence warrants lack of existence. To hang onto something because 'you want it to be true and it happens to be possible' is not thinking founded on any logic whatsoever.

    As far as his crucifixion goes, are you aware how many men were crucified by the Romans in Israel? The fact that documents have survived to this day is no surprise, because due to the positively HUGE number of them, its almost a mathematical impossibility that some wouldn't have. As for the breaking of the Temple Laws, that was common too. Sinning was against temple regulation, so technically the laws were broken on a daily basis. The Romans occupied Israel, so for them to be in charge and take care of formal executions was almost a must for maintaining the peace of the country.

    As far as the 'yada, yada, yada' comment goes, that was said to express ridicule. I am sorry if you were offended.
     
  20. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,833
    Ratings:
    +189
    An encyclopedia. A physics, biology, or chemistry book. A history book. Hell... even the Tao Te Ching makes more sense than the Bible!
     
Loading...