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Why do you not believe in God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Redeemed of God, May 12, 2004.

  1. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Mr_Spinkles from what I've read on the boards I've learned that some people here who are now atheist were once believers. Also friends I know IRL who label themselves atheist were one time believers. So my statement was based off this kind of information. Usually there is some event that happens in these peoples lives which change their beliefs. Most atheist will say "I use to go to church when I was real young" or "I was raised in a christian home" Thus some atheist are saved.

    "how can you be so sure that the Bible is true," says Ceridwen018.
    -give me a composition that is more dominance and say-so then the bible. Give me another work that each time I read it I learn something new. To me the bible is the most magical tome ever. Give me proof that Jesus never lived...that roman documents describing the charge and cruixifiction of a man in Israel for breaking Jewish Temple Laws were foraged in order to fullfill prophecy.

    Your statement of "You say the Bible says that 'the heavens declare the glory of god,' yada, yada, yada. I am sure that it does, but then again, the Bible says a lot of things"

    What do you mean by using the words yada yada yada , I'm sure it does?
    Are you saying this as an expressive of ridicule or do you mean that your certain it does, that its indisputable?
     
  2. Bastet

    Bastet Vile Stove-Toucher

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    A dictionary. :lol:
     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    :clap:
    :lol:
    Well I use the dictonary just about every day
     
  4. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    If you don’t fully comprehend God and Jesus Christ...I am your servant for Christ sake and I will try to help you understand why there is a God

    By all means, please do so.

    But first, you'll have to provide a definition of god in which we all agree. Can you do that?
     
  5. osuwagner

    osuwagner Member

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    Well, of course there is an event which makes someone change their beliefs. Every action requires a cause. But I don't like the underlying meaning you've attached to this. You make it sound as if there is something bad which happens to an atheist which messes them up and makes them "lose their way" sort of speak. But the thing is, most atheists I know are very happy people with a natural tendency towards philosophical thought. And for many, this "event" which you speak of is not necessarily a traumitizing episode, rather, it might have been a seemingly unrelated event which led them to think, and through their thoughts, they arrived at a new conclusion. It is usally a gradual process which is achieved only through countless hours of quiet contemplation coupled with an open mind.

    Secondly, you say that most atheists used to follow a specific religion or church. Well, I don't see how this can be of any surprise. Atheism to me is more of a philosophy than a religion. It requires a mature understanding of ideas and outside philosophies for one to truly even fathom the idea of a world without an omnicient being guiding all occurences. Therefore, only a person who has grown to a certain level of maturity of thought can become an atheist.

    But the thing is, I believe this is true for any religion. I don't consider children to be true followers of whatever religion they are raised in. Instead, they are still in the learning stage and have not yet been exposed to all of the countering points of view. They are merely mimicking their parents, friends, community what have you. I don't think anyone really becomes a follower of their religion until they spend these long hours of contemplation and arrive at a conclusion. Naturally, most people are going to be prone to arriving at the same conclusion as everyone else in their environment, because social factors can be a very strong influence on a person's viewpoint. So by sheer percentages, the majority of Christian children are going to grow up to be Christian, and the majority of atheist children are going to grow up to be atheist. What separates atheism from these other religions, is that in the vast majority of cases where an individual rejects their born-into religion, they will in turn reject all other religions which rely on the assumption of a being seperate from the universe. Atheism is kinda the go-to philosophy. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that because atheists make up only about 5% of the world's population (according to some online surverys) that the majority of atheists would have been born into an alternative religion.

    And as a question to true blood,.....do you think that someone who is born into a religion other than Christianity and maintains that religion for their entire life is automatically not "saved" and is therfore going to hell? If so, do you think that atheists who were born into christianity but have since rejected it are somehow more deserving of salvation than those who were not?
     
  6. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    osuwagner, many good points.

    I would like to add something on the reply to what true blood said, about atheists rejecting christianity due to some specific event in their lives. First of all, I agree with wagner that that doesn't seem to be true. Personally, it has been a long process for me with no definitive initiation. Secondly, one of my arguments against organized religion is the fact that people are much more susceptible to turning to religion during the defining moments of their lives, be them traumatic or happy. Religion seems to be a well of emotional support, even if its actual effects rival that of sugar pills for a hypochondriac. So you see it goes both ways, and I think it was a bit silly for you to point that out.

    Just because a book has 'dominace and say-so' doesn't mean its true. Just because someone is a succesful business person or foreign royalty doesn't make them a truly good person. The Bible has power only while people believe it does.

    I never said Jesus never lived-- I believe it is very possible he was simply a 'prophet' of the time (self proclaimed prophets were actually ridiculously common in that era) who struck it big. But you know what I say? Give me proof that he did live. In scientific reasoning, lack of evidence warrants lack of existence. To hang onto something because 'you want it to be true and it happens to be possible' is not thinking founded on any logic whatsoever.

    As far as his crucifixion goes, are you aware how many men were crucified by the Romans in Israel? The fact that documents have survived to this day is no surprise, because due to the positively HUGE number of them, its almost a mathematical impossibility that some wouldn't have. As for the breaking of the Temple Laws, that was common too. Sinning was against temple regulation, so technically the laws were broken on a daily basis. The Romans occupied Israel, so for them to be in charge and take care of formal executions was almost a must for maintaining the peace of the country.

    As far as the 'yada, yada, yada' comment goes, that was said to express ridicule. I am sorry if you were offended.
     
  7. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    An encyclopedia. A physics, biology, or chemistry book. A history book. Hell... even the Tao Te Ching makes more sense than the Bible!
     
  8. Mr Spinkles

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    Sure, it's right here in the Bible on page....wait a minute.... :lol:
     
  9. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    What the devil? can you explain what you meant by this?
     
  10. Redeemed of God

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    Give me sometimes to study and i'll get back to it...its too lates for me. (after all im still in school i need to study for my CAT's)
     
  11. Redeemed of God

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    A Catholic mass is by definition the sacrifice of Christ (Catechism 1322, 1338). The Baltimore Catechism (Confraternity Edition of 1949) says, "Christ gives us His own body and blood in the holy Eucharist first, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorating and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross" (Catechism 356).

    While the Catholic catechisms quote the passages that speak of Christ dying once, they also teach that the priest miraculously transforms the bread and wine into Christ's real body, and that Jesus is then sacrificed anew. "The blood is real blood (it looks like wine and tastes like wine at Mass, but it is truly the Blood of Christ."[1]

    Although there is some variation among Protestants on the meaning of the Lord's supper, without exception biblical Protestants teach that the sacrament is not a renewal or a revisitation of the bodily sacrifice of Christ. Rather it is a remembrance and a memorial use of symbols blessed by God to the benefit of the humbled believer.

    This contrast is far more than a controversy of words. It goes to the very heart of the difference between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity. Protestant faith denies that the church has the power to perform the mass's "miracle of transubstantiation," and it further denies that the Lord's Supper's purpose is to see accomplished the death of Christ all over again.
    "Nor did He [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again..."
    (see Hebrews 9:25-10:18) (King James Version)

    There are many more reasons but I'd be here all day.
     
  12. Redeemed of God

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    Hey...I can't give you an explanation of God that we can all agree on because most of you people are atheists or agnostics as I would put it. This is from the Shorter Catechism which is part of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which has all the Protestant's doctrines or at least most of them with biblical proof.

    Q. 4. What is God?
    A. God is a Spirit,[7] infinite,[8] eternal,[9] and unchangeable,[10] in his being,[11] wisdom,[12] power,[13] holiness,[14] justice,[15] goodness,[16] and truth.[17]


    [7] Deuteronomy 4:15-19. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Luke 24:39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Acts 17:29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    [8] 1 Kings 8:27. But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Psalm 139:7-10. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. Psalm 145:3. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable. Psalm 147:5. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. Jeremiah 23:24. Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Romans 11:33-36. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    [9] Deuteronomy 33:27. The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. Psalm 90:2. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Psalm 102:12, 24-27. But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.... I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. Revelation 1:4, 8. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne.... I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    [10] Psalm 33:11. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. Malachi 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Hebrews 1:12. And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Hebrews 6:17-18. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Hebrews 13:8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. James 1:17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    [11] Exodus 3:14. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Psalm 115:2-3. Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 1 Timothy 1:17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:15-16. Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    [12] Psalm 104:24. O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. Romans 11:33-34. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Hebrews 4:13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 1 John 3:20. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

    [13 Genesis 17:1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Psalm 62:11. God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. Jeremiah 32:17. Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: Matthew 19:26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Revelation 1:8. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    [14] Hebrews 1:13. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 1 Peter 1:15-16. But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 John 3:3, 5. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Revelation 15:4. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    [15] Genesis 18:25. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Exodus 34:6-7. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Deuteronomy 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Psalm 96:13. Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Romans 3:5, 26. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man).... To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    [16] Psalm 103:5. Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. Psalm 107:8. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! Matthew 19:7. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? Romans 2:4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

    [17] Exodus 34:6. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Deuteronomy 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Psalm 86:15. But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth. Psalm 117:2. For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD. Hebrews 6:18. That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.
     
  13. Engyo

    Engyo Prince of Dorkness!

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    Why do I not believe in God?

    Primarily because I found the practice of Christianity did not work as advertised in my life. Secondarily because no matter which version of Christianity I tried there were too many "questions you don't ask". Tertiarily, because Christianity has been used as the justification for some of the most horrible and terrible acts in history.

    I have no problem with others believing in God if they so choose. For me, it's not my path.
     
  14. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    Redeemed..... not sure what your staying still. Im a Catholic... I know all about the Mass. I'm a Eucharistic Minister for the love of jorge. Who did you mean when you said they are the true saints of christ... and why is that? You have only explined hte difference to me between catholic and protstant... im well aware, my three best friends on this earth are protestant. And here's one issue I have with quoting the bible...... I could write a huge book, like the bible. Multiple copies. Bury them different places. in thousands of years, people dig them up and say oh wow and take it all literally, when its something I made up. And it's useless to quote the bible as an authority to people who don't believe in god... It's like quoting the Vedas to me... i don't believe in it so it truly matters not to me.
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Wow...damn...you've really got me here. I mean, if the catechism says it then jesus, how can I possibly refute?

    Yeah, that was a little sarcastic.

    You know what though? You have made me think. Why, exactly, am I trying to convey my ideas and possibly 'convert' people like you? I mean, you are very useful as you are! Hell, you'll believe ANYTHING, and that can always be utilized by someone like me!

    I mean, do you hear yourself speaking here? "It looks like wine, it smells like wine, it tastes like wine, any scientific test you could do on it would reveal it as having the exact characteristics of wine, but the 'mother ship' has proclaimed that it is the true blood of christ, therefore it could not POSSIBLY be wine." :lol:

    I'm sorry, but this is just making me laugh here. i mean, not only are you having to deal with a lack of evidence for your case here, you're also having to cope with the mutitude of evidence against you. That sucks, man.

    Okay, one thing that the Catholic church really does not need to do, is to try to resemble a cult more. Lemme put that last line up for you again:

    SACRIFICE THE VIRGINS! I mean, come on! Does that not sound a little deranged to you? Even though I am not Christian, I have to tell you that it makes much more sense for you to revisit and remember Christ's sacrifice, rather than actually play it out. This is just ridiculous.

    I must say one other thing though: I agree with teapot-- STOP QUOTING THE FREAKING BIBLE!!!!! You are really just wasting space in this forum, as you are using biblical passages as your evidence, and although I thought I'd made it clear before, I guess I did not, so lemme set the record straight-- I do not believe the bible has any evidencial merit, whatsoever. I visited those sites you sent me, explaining the divine inspiration theory, and all they really did was make me wonder if you had actually been on them yourself, because they really don't make any sense.
     
  16. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    Hey...I can't give you an explanation of God that we can all agree on because most of you people are atheists or agnostics as I would put it.

    So, each and every theist completely agrees as to the definition of god?

    Sorry, but thats horsepucky. The definition of god is inherently personal to each individual and no two definitions are the same.

    One has a better chance at finding two people with identical fingerprints than two people who agree on their definitions of god.
     
  17. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    Good points there Q. Redeemed, as I said before I'm Catholic. That doesn't mean I agree with everything the Catholic church declares. When it comes to birth control for instance. BIG differences there... I'm still delving into the whole transsubstantiation, but wine or blood, its still sacred to me cause in the least it represents a great great sacrifice. My views on homosexuality differ from those of the Catholic church (in case you couldnt tell :mrgreen: ) Considering my general views on religion are different, my view of God is going to be different as well. I know Catholics who think that God is this all powerful being and they portray him as a king figure. I believe God is all powerful, but instead of being an authority figure, he's more of a granfather i'm incredibly close to who takes care of me and makes sure i stay on the right track. People may share a similar view of this, but there's no possible way they could have the exact same feelings. Why are you trying to define something that simply cannot be defined? Go ahead and give me a dictionary entry. But remember - man wrote the dictionary. Man tried to define God just as you are trying to. We cannot fully comprehend God, so we cannot fully explain Him.,
     
  18. Redeemed of God

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    teapot you basically told me there that your're not a Christian so u dont have anything to argue about.
     
  19. osuwagner

    osuwagner Member

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    Redeemed,

    I went to a Catholic school all my life, and your use of the Baltimore Catechism as a source for what Catholics believe is completely erroneous. While it is true that it set the basic guidelines for American catholicism in the pre-Vatican II era, it has since been thrown out and is no longer used for anything. So basically your argument is meaningless.
     
  20. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    haha your real funny..I was talking of religious writings hence this is a religious forums.
     
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