Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

[Hockeycowboy]

If a person, by his own investigation into the various religions decides to change his own religion, that, and only that is justified.

And that is all we do!

If you were living a normal life, and you were satisfied, but I had information that could lovingly touch your heart (not forcefully), and lead to your having a better life, an everlasting one, would it be loving of me to keep that information from you? It would be unloving, not to! All should at least hear, so they can make their own informed decisions.

Over 8,000,000 of us have found information that, previously, we didn't know existed! While I was in Christendom, I was never told about God's purpose for humans to live forever here on Earth, it was always Heaven. But when I started studying the Bible with JW's, I learned marvelous truths, astounding yet simple! But I never would have found them, if someone hadn't shown me, from the Bible, about the Earth and the blessings to come! (Isaiah 11:6-9, for example) It piqued my interest to learn more.

Reminds me of how many grants and such are available for gaining a college degree, but go uncollected because people don't know the money is there.

Good night.

 

[sayak83]

And that is all we do!

If you were living a normal life, and you were satisfied, but I had information that could lovingly touch your heart (not forcefully), and lead to your having a better life, an everlasting one, would it be loving of me to keep that information from you? It would be unloving, not to! All should at least hear, so they can make their own informed decisions.

Gandhi was absolutely and completely opposed to all the door-to-door preaching and pamphlet distribution and any form of solicitation and advertising of religion by deliberately going upto people and telling them. Gandhi believed, as it has been said clearly by him in all the quotes, that all religions have the resources to guide people to everlasting life, the very idea that one needs to go around telling people how one's own religion can do it and inviting people to come into it by leaving their own was deplorable and egoistical and wrong.

I am sorry, but Gandhi would indeed club all JW into the category of Christians he disliked.
1) Do you believe that your own faith has truths about God and attaining everlasting life that other faiths lack. If yes then Gandhi would disagree with you.
2) Do you believe that people are in urgent need to believe and convert to your faith in order to truly access God and everlasting life. If yes then Gandhi would strongly disagree with you.
3) Do you believe that you need to go around and explicitly expound your faith and belief to people of other religions even if they have not shown any prior interest in the hopes that some of them will listen and convert from their own faiths. If yes, then you are in absolute opposition to Gandhi who considered all such actions wrong.

So no, no matter how much you justify your actions, they are not actions Gandhi would ever ever support as is obvious from his statements to that effect.

Over 8,000,000 of us have found information that, previously, we didn't know existed! While I was in Christendom, I was never told about God's purpose for humans to live forever here on Earth, it was always Heaven. But when I started studying the Bible with JW's, I learned marvelous truths, astounding yet simple! But I never would have found them, if someone hadn't shown me, from the Bible, about the Earth and the blessings to come! (Isaiah 11:6-9, for example) It piqued my interest to learn more.

You forget that Gandhi believed that all major denominations of all religions have in them sufficient and widely available means for a follower of that denomination to access the holy life and communion with God. So Gandhi would have rejected your premise that that majority Christian denominations lack anything at all that you somehow gained by following JW.

However, the part about the fact that post resurrection life is on the new earth under God's direct presence is the standard Catholic and Protestant doctrine. I was quite well aware of this and every Christian I know are as well.
N.T. Wright: Heaven Is Not Our Home

Reminds me of how many grants and such are available for gaining a college degree, but go uncollected because people don't know the money is there.

In Gandhi's world, college education (everlasting life) has been made freely available to all by God in all places through countless universities (the various faiths and their denominations) and one can go wherever. There is no competition and hence no need for any special access through grants or what not.

Basically Gandhi would reject the premise that there is anything special your JW denomination has that other denominations or religions lack.

""The idea of converting people to one's faith by speech or writings, by appeal to reason or emotion or by suggesting that the faith of his forefathers is a bad faith, in my opinion, limits the possibilities of serving humanity. I believe that the great religions of the world are all more or less true and they have all descended to us from God."

".What I mean to say is that we should be prepared to lose our lives but not to change our faith."- Gandhi (1925)

""Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity and vice versa? Why should he not be satisfied if Hindu is a good or godly man?"

 

[Sapiens]

Conspiracies-- you have no idea!

Do you think all paranormal activity, like contact with spirits, etc.... do you think it's all faked?!

Because, if you do, you have been fooled, big time!

One example: The dead are dead (as per the Bible: Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Genesis 3:19; etc.), yet many people believe they are in contact with their dead loved ones, even interacting and talking with them.

No such a thing ... besides, quoting scripture is not considered evidence of anything except what scripture said.

These people who believe they can, since most religions teach the dead are living in another realm, are, sadly, dealing with spirit imposters, intent on furthering the lie that the Devil, through the snake, told Eve, "You positively will not die". Their desire is simply to "mislead" (Revelation 12:9), in any way possible, trying to keep people from developing a relationship with Jehovah, through Christ.

I doubt you'll grasp the enormity of the situation....you'll just scoff. But that's ok, because someday, when the Resurrection comes (John 6:44), I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, as will most of mankind!

Take care.

There is no evidence of spirits, spirit impostors, devils, talking snakes, Eve, Jehovah, or Christ. You're being fooled big time ... and repeatedly.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's what the Bible states. And we can reason on it! The Scriptures encourage us to reason! -- Acts of the Apostles 17:2-3.

Remember, you're the one that gave the flippant, belittling response, saying it was only "worth scoffing at". That implies an unwillingness to reason! I'm more than ready!

Actually, the willingness to believe something you have no reason to believe implies an unwillingness to reason. You have no evidence, so there's really nothing reasonable to respond to.

Back to the topic: You hear most theists say, "God is in control." Are you aware that Jesus called the Devil, "the ruler of this world"? It fits the circumstances society as a whole finds itself in.

Only if you're an extremely cynical, embittered and nihilistic person who only sees the negative.

 

[Jose Fly]

Right........It has to do mostly with the fact that they think that a god "poofed" all the animals into existence.

Which is contradictory to our own observations. We know how new organisms/species arise; they do so via evolution. We've seen it happen many times. Conversely, we've never once seen a God poof anything into existence, let alone an entire new species.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Who is the "You" that is referred to here?

Christians.

There is nothing in the Gospel of Matthew that suggests that the magi were anything but deluded pagan astrologers used by the devil as dupes to have Jesus killed. It didn't work. God told them to go home via another route, so they did. Any Christian who tries to tell you that Christmas has anything to do with the birth of Jesus Christ is sadly deluded. December 25th was celebrated in Rome as the birthday of the sun god. A bit of nifty deception...and voila! The birthday of the sun god becomes the birthday of the son of God, complete with the feasting and the gift giving and the merriment. Christmas is not Christian and never was.Easter is not Christian...and never was either.

Ask 50 Christians and get 50 answers.

If you understood what really happened in the beginning and why God handled things the way he did with the long term benefit in view, you might not have abandoned him so readily. Do you really think you know better than an all-knowing God? Just because he doesn't operate by your rules, doesn't mean that he doesn't have a better way of dealing with things than short sighted humans who think he's stupid.....or doesn't exist.

What all-knowing god? If the Christian god exists, it abandoned me, or more correctly, never showed up.

I believe he will show you one day.....what do you imagine that you would say to him then?

You don't seem to be able to imagine what the world looks like through other eyes. Your posts assume a god not in evidence. Whatever you have to say that makes that assumption is irrelevant to somebody that does not accept that you have established that premise.

Let me demonstrate: What are going to say to Santa when you meet Him? Why did you give up on Santa? Dd you think you knew better than Santa?

 

[Milton Platt]

Good grief.

and your argument is???

 

[Derek500]

After all of this no fundie creationist has even attempted to answer the question asked in the title of the threat.

Here it is again:

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

 

[Deeje]

Right........It has to do mostly with the fact that they think that a god "poofed" all the animals into existence.

and your argument is???

Who said that God "poofed" anything into existence? The Bible describes creation as something God gave birth to. Not literally of course, but with all that giving birth implies. It was a process that took place carefully over a very long period of time....culminating in a finished product.

Any wonder people question creation if they assume that God is some kind of celestial wizard "poofing" things into existence with the wave of his hand. He is a craftsman, hand designing and finishing each piece to his satisfaction, hence his declaration at the end of each creative "day" (not a literal 24 hour day) that everything was "good".

These creative "days" could have been thousands of years long, with the Creator taking much time and deliberation over each creature, not to mention his preparation of the earth itself for their arrival. All had food and water and a habitat designed especially for them. Is that so far fetched?

 

[Deeje]

After all of this no fundie creationist has even attempted to answer the question asked in the title of the threat.

Here it is again:

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

That would probably be because those who believe in a Creator, take him at his word. He didn't simply invent evolution and leave us to fend for ourselves.
He crafted each of his creatures and their environment so that life would be enjoyed on this planet....just as he intended.
Humans are unique, in that they are the only creatures designed to reflect the moral qualities of their Maker.

A rebellion that followed the creation of man set those plans back for a while, but once settled, not only will planet earth be inhabited with obedient creatures enjoying life, but there is nothing to stop the Creator from preparing many other planets for habitation as well.....he has eternity to accomplish it and he is in no hurry.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That would probably be because those who believe in a Creator, take him at his word. He didn't simply invent evolution and leave us to fend for ourselves.
He crafted each of his creatures and their environment so that life would be enjoyed on this planet....just as he intended.

And why is it that God couldn't have used evolution as their method to achieve this?

Humans are unique, in that they are the only creatures designed to reflect the moral qualities of their Maker.

See above.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I could debate at length, every little bit of your post, but I'll just stick with this obvious untruth:

Basically Gandhi would reject the premise that there is anything special your JW denomination has that other denominations or religions lack.

Unfortunately he's dead, and probably had never observed Jehovah's Witnesses.

But tell me, how many religious organizations refuse to get caught up in divisive nationalistic fervor, and refuse to fight against and kill other people simply on the basis of [geographical location / political persuasion / tribal / (insert reason here)]? It's not for nothing, Jesus stated Matthew 5:43-44 and John 13:34-35, easily identifiable traits!

I know of only one, that is global, transcending all barriers through having love of God and their neighbor (Matthew 22:37-39), though that may cause hatred from others. I think Gandhi would have approved of that unpopular stance!

Curious... How do you think seguna Brahman, ontologically speaking, views people killing others?

 

[sayak83]

I could debate at length, every little bit of your post, but I'll just stick with this obvious untruth:



Unfortunately he's dead, and probably had never observed Jehovah's Witnesses.

But tell me, how many religious organizations refuse to get caught up in divisive nationalistic fervor, and refuse to fight against and kill other people simply on the basis of [geographical location / political persuasion / tribal / (insert reason here)]? It's not for nothing, Jesus stated Matthew 5:43-44 and John 13:34-35, easily identifiable traits!

I know of only one, that is global, transcending all barriers through having love of God and their neighbor (Matthew 22:37-39), though that may cause hatred from others. I think Gandhi would have approved of that unpopular stance!

Curious... How do you think seguna Brahman, ontologically speaking, views people killing others?

Jains and Buddhists obviously. Also Vaisnavas among Hindus. Gandhi was particularly influenced by the pacifism of Jainism and Vaisnava groups.
Your non-violence is not enough. In many Indian tradition non-violence also extends to non-killing of animals. Do you eat meat. If so, you fall short of the standards of peace set by many Dharmic and Hindu groups, and Gandhi of course. Also, of course, jains, buddhists and vaisnavas consider killing to be prohibited under all conditions.
Gandhi was of course extremely political. He would not approve of keeping oneself aloof from the political sphere of life at all and would encourage everyone to actively engage in politics.

I personally disagree with Gandhi in this. I consider the use of violence as a last resort to save life of oneself, family or friends to be perfectly justified. In fact not resisting aggression under such conditions just because one abjures violence would be immoral in my book. There is excellent justification of keeping violence as an option in order to maintain ethics in society (should a policeman allow a robbery or a murder to happen because he does not want to use violence to stop it?) .

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you eat meat

Yep, so point taken! But it's because I worship Jehovah the God of the Bible, and He says that's ok (as long as most of the blood is drained!) If He said don't do it, I wouldn't.

I consider the use of violence as a last resort to save life of oneself, family or friends to be perfectly justified.

I agree, too. I would try to protect anyone innocent facing a life-threatening situation, friend or not.

But even in that situation, the attacker wouldn't have to be killed, just immobilized. Maybe....take his knee-caps out, lol.

Hey, you have a good evening. Take care.

 

[Derek500]

That would probably be because those who believe in a Creator, take him at his word. He didn't simply invent evolution and leave us to fend for ourselves.
He crafted each of his creatures and their environment so that life would be enjoyed on this planet....just as he intended.
Humans are unique, in that they are the only creatures designed to reflect the moral qualities of their Maker.

A rebellion that followed the creation of man set those plans back for a while, but once settled, not only will planet earth be inhabited with obedient creatures enjoying life, but there is nothing to stop the Creator from preparing many other planets for habitation as well.....he has eternity to accomplish it and he is in no hurry.

You didn't answer the question.

I mean, even the Pope accepts evolution. He's not an atheist.

Let's repeat the question for you:

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

 

[Darkstorn]

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

Because they are under the false impression that it somehow strengthens their argument.

 

[Jose Fly]

That would probably be because those who believe in a Creator, take him at his word.

Wait.....are you really unaware that people believe in other creators besides the one you believe in? Are you really under the impression that if someone doesn't believe in the Jehovah's Witness God, then that person must be an atheist?

 

[Deeje]

And why is it that God couldn't have used evolution as their method to achieve this?

The creation account is specific, not vague or even alluding in any way to an evolutionary process of any sort.

Why does God need to use evolution when he can craft individual creatures to his own satisfaction as a finished product?
You cannot fuse creation and evolution as if the Creator has to abide by what you want to believe.....you can choose one or the other. They are diametrically opposed. Evolutionary science is based on suggestion, not fact.

Scientists take a programmed response (adaptation) in all living things that allows them to adapt to a change of environment, climatic conditions or food source, (without direct intervention from the Creator at all) into a whole other scenario based solely on the assumption that "if a little is good, then a lot must be better".

There is not one single shred of solid evidence that macro-evolution is even possible, let alone accepted as a fact that "must have" taken place, (just because scientists say so.) Calling adaptation "micro-evolution" doesn't justify calling creation "Macro-evolution".....just the product of natural selection and beneficial mutations. (which basically happen so rarely that the whole theory is founded on nothing but supposition.)

You can believe whatever you wish.....but if it isn't true, what will you gain, as opposed to what you will lose?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The creation account is specific, not vague or even alluding in any way to an evolutionary process of any sort.

Does it have to?

Why does God need to use evolution when he can craft individual creatures to his own satisfaction as a finished product?

Sure, he COULD do that - but the overwhelming evidence indicates that's not what happened - unless you believe that God crafted individual creatures to their own satisfaction and then immediately killed them off and replaced them with other, similar creatures and then killing them off, and then repeating this process millions of times over billions of years.

Why couldn't God have just set the wheel in motion, knowing where it was going to end up, and what appears to us by all accounts to be the process of evolution is to God merely the natural result of his creative process?

You cannot fuse creation and evolution as if the Creator has to abide by what you want to believe.....you can choose one or the other. They are diametrically opposed. Evolutionary science is based on suggestion, not fact.

This is just baseless nonsense.

Scientists take a programmed response (adaptation) in all living things that allows them to adapt to a change of environment, climatic conditions or food source, (without direct intervention from the Creator at all) into a whole other scenario based solely on the assumption that "if a little is good, then a lot must be better".

Based on this, you clearly don't understand how evolution functions. And the fact that evolution doesn't mention direct intervention from a creator is irrelevant - God isn't mentioned in germ theory, atomic theory of gravitation theory either, because science by its very function is naturalistic and cannot assume a casual, supernatural agent. That doesn't mean one could not have been involved and science is just unable to detect them. Your lack of imagination doesn't make it impossible.

There is not one single shred of solid evidence that macro-evolution is even possible, let alone accepted as a fact that "must have" taken place, (just because scientists say so.)

Speciation has been directly observed multiple times.

Calling adaptation "micro-evolution" doesn't justify calling creation "Macro-evolution".....just the product of natural selection and beneficial mutations. (which basically happen so rarely that the whole theory is founded on nothing but supposition.)

Again, speciation has been directly observed multiple times.

You can believe whatever you wish.....but if it isn't true, what will you gain, as opposed to what you will lose?

Nothing. What if you're wrong and the ancient Greeks were right? You'll have a very red face when you're carried down the river Styx to the underworld.

 

[Deeje]

You didn't answer the question.

I mean, even the Pope accepts evolution. He's not an atheist.

Let's repeat the question for you:

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

From what Jesus taught, we can see that "religion" is something that can take people away from God rather than something that draws them closer. There is an enemy loose in the world, whose primary MO is deception. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) As God's adversary, he has been permitted to test the human race as to their fitness for everlasting life here on earth. This was the place that God designed to be our permanent home.....it still will be, but not until the issues surrounding the abuse of free will are settled.

According to the teachings of Jesus Christ, "few" are in line for that privilege. (Matthew 7:13-14) There are only "sheep" and "goats" in this world from God's standpoint....no matter what religion they subscribe to. There is one God and only one acceptable way to worship him. Those who think they can worship any way they please, are in for a rude awakening.

As for those who identify as "Christians".....Jesus had a warning for them too....
Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

At the judgment that is looming, only those "doing the will of the Father" will inherit the Kingdom, meaning that they will have qualified as citizens of that Kingdom. The rest will forfeit their right to live, having disqualified themselves from retaining the gift of life. God gives and God can take away.....that is his right as Sovereign of the Universe.