Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

[tigger2]

<facepalm>

"Later in the same letter the apostle Paul recites the “mystery of godliness” in these terms: “God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16). So Paul directly proclaims Jesus as God. And of course he also referred to God the Father as God (1 Timothy 1:1-2). Thus, as Paul acknowledged, Jesus was one of the two who were God, in line with the truth proclaimed in John 1, which refers to God (the Father) and the Word who was also God, who became Jesus Christ (John 1:1-3; John 1:14)."

Does the wording of 1 Timothy 2:5—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”—mean that Jesus is not God?

"God was manifest in the flesh"

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with "God" as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: "he" (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [`70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), "who," or "which." Even the equally old Douay version has "which was manifested in the flesh." All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς ("who") here instead of (θς, θεὸς, "god"). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

"it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL copyist]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

So who has falsified the Bible?

 

[Spartan]

A Psalm of David. Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool. - Ps. 110:1, ASV.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. - AKJV.

Jesus is not Jehovah.

Yeah, Jesus is Jehovah. NUMEROUS examples in the article below.

Jesus Must be Jehovah

 

[Trailblazer]

For most of human history there have been many gods or one "chief" God and many lessor gods.

Many gods are mentioned in scripture.. including Yam, El, Baal and Asherah.

What was the name of the Bronze snake on the post in Sinai?

But there has always only been One True God that created the universe and all that is therein.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[sooda]

But there has always only been One True God that created the universe and all that is therein.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

Which has nothing to do with Elohim or the Canaanite pantheon.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed. But that depends on which scriptures or faith a person follows.

Regarding your second point, I read somewhere that Hinduism's many gods are actually representations of one God's attributes.

But from a logical viewpoint, there is either one God or there are many Gods because those are mutually exclusive.

It does not matter which scriptures or faith a person follows because that does not determine reality.
There is either one God or there are many Gods.

It is not necessary to have many Gods in order to represent God's attributes, since one God can represent all of is own attributes.

Hinduism is one of the oldest religions and it has ancient beliefs that have since been updated by the Abrahamic religions. If people want to hang onto those old beliefs that is their own choice since we all have free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks, but I'll stick with what I presented. Jesus is Jehovah!

Which is fully your choice, since we all have free will to choose what to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to JW theology:

The Father is the only God.

Jesus is not God but the first creation. They REALLY disagree with the idea that Jesus is God. They would use the term a god as a relative term, not as describing someone as a part of God.

The Holy Spirit isn't God and is not a person. It is an active force controlled by God and has no personality.

So your conclusions wouldn't line up with their view.

The JWs are not far from what Baha'is believe about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
I am not sure what you mean by "the first creation." It is a Baha'i belief that the soul of Jesus (and all the other Manifestations of God) were pre-existent in the spiritual world, not that they were created.

The Baha’i Faith believes in a Trinity, and the detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Briefly, we believe that there are three separate entities involved: (1) God, (2) the Manifestation of God, and (3) the Holy Spirit, and they work together but they are not all part of God. (The Manifestation of God is also referred to as a Messenger or a Prophet.)

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God to whom God sent the Holy Spirit and then Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to Earth. By bringing the Holy Spirit to Earth, Jesus shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be recounted or perceived so never descends to Earth to become a man. Rather, God sends the souls of Manifestations of God such as Jesus from the spiritual world (heaven) and then their souls unite with their bodies at the moment of conception and they are born into a human body. Later, after these men reach a certain age, God sends the Holy Spirit to them as happened to Jesus with the dove. Moses received the Holy Spirit at the Burning Bush, Muhammad received the Holy Spirit from the Angel Gabriel, and Baha’u’llah received the Holy Spirit in the form of a Maiden. When these Manifestations of God receive et the Holy Spirit that is when they start talking about God to their disciples, or in the case of Baha’u’llah, writings things down. Then what they say or write is compiled into religious scriptures that humans can benefit from.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which has nothing to do with Elohim or the Canaanite pantheon.

Obviously not.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

"God was manifest in the flesh"

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with "God" as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: "he" (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [`70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), "who," or "which." Even the equally old Douay version has "which was manifested in the flesh." All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς ("who") here instead of (θς, θεὸς, "god"). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

"it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL copyist]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

So who has falsified the Bible?

It is not that you and other sects have been falsifying the Bible, it is just that you emphasize different scripture and don't understand that the Bible shouldn't be taken as a whole because it was written and edited by different people with different theological agendas. It is obvious when you apply the methods of Biblical criticism that the author of Matthew didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus whereas the author of John's gospel did believe in the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can I ask what your religious (or non-religious) background was before Baha'i? Is Baha'i the only religion you have ever had?

I never had a religion before I became a Baha’i. My parents had been raised as Christians but they dropped out of the Church before we were born. As a result, I never thought about God or religion until my first year of college when I found out about the Baha’i Faith. Even after that, I was not very interested in religion because my life took another turn…

Fast forward to 2013 and I started reading and posting to Christians on forums, so I started learning about Christianity and the Bible.

As far as Christianity is concerned I see it in quite simple terms....God chooses us as much as we choose him.

The apostle John wrote Jesus' words in John ch 6....this is an important factor in our search for God....

"44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..."
"65 “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

If God is choosing us, then if he sees potential in a person, he will open their hearts to his truth...it will be a little like the Apostle Paul's conversion when he was struck blind and where something like scales fell from his eyes so that he could 'see'. Saul of Tarsus died that day and the Apostle Paul was anointed to begin his new life. He was chosen. All of Christ's followers are "chosen" by God to understand his truth. Jesus said "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"....that is the overwhelming feeling you get when it happens to you. It gives you an appetite for spiritual things that is almost insatiable. Some people never realized that they were so hungry!

History repeats itself, so every time a Manifestation of God comes to earth, only certain people recognize Him, and we could consider them the ones who are chosen, because there is more than free will involved when it comes to recognition. As you said, God draws you near.

The Baha’i Faith has a similar belief about being chosen, but rather than using the word chosen Baha’u’llah used the word guided.

“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 11

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

But I also believe that it works in reverse. If someone was once a faithful believer but has turned his/her attention to another 'truth', I believe that God will repel them.....they then join the other 'lost' ones who never quite find what they are looking for...probably because it doesn't exist.

I do not know exactly what happens to those who were once Christians and then rejected that Truth. I have a lot of friends in that category so I do worry about them. I recall a long time ago that a Trinitarian Christian told me on another forum that if someone was once a Christian and then they reject Jesus, the punishment is worse than had they never been a believer.

So what happens to those whom God does not ever draw, and who have not been granted an understanding of the truth?

That is an interesting question and I don’t think we have the answer. If God is fully responsible for drawing them to Him, and free will does not enter in, then how are they blameworthy? However, I don’t think it is all on God; as this passage indicates it is also on us, because those who make an effort will be guided if they have fulfilled the essential conditions of a true seeker (bolded for emphasis).

“These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the path of Positive Knowledge. When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

Paul explains that there would be much religious confusion, an apostasy from the truth with even some claiming to perform miracles and such.....

That is interesting what Paul said about the confusion, because Baha'u'llah said pretty much the same thing and Baha’u’llah explained why people are so confused about God (bolded for emphasis).

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

This is why people can be so certain that what they believe is the truth....even if it isn't....its a delusion of their own choosing that they are permitted to keep.

They are permitted to keep it because free will is sacrosanct in God’s Eyes.

This is very confronting because it implies that if God considers us a lost cause because he sees a heart that cannot be reached with his truth, (no matter how many times they have heard it) then he will not bother to correct them or to draw them. They will still hear his message because it is being declared in all the earth, (Matthew 24:14) but they will not respond, so he allows them to believe whatever they wish.

Logically speaking, God is omniscient so God knows everything, so God knows who will – of their own free will – choose to believe, and who won’t; so why would God bother drawing those who will reject Him? In so many words, Baha’u’llah said that those who have rejected the signs of God will not be guided. How can they be guided if they rejected the signs of God unless God overrode their free will choices?

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

If someone has the right condition of heart, then God will lead them to his truth...if not, then no amount of preaching will move them.

That is how I understand Christ's teachings.

I think that is part of the truth, but there is more to it since recognition of the truth involves both the heart and the mind.

On another note, today I noted to Israel Khan that the JWs are not far from what Baha'is believe about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. #227 Trailblazer


I think the main points of disagreement between Baha’is and JWs are that (1) we believe in more than one Manifestation of God, and (2) we believe that the Christ Spirit has returned, and (3) we believe in a different kind of afterlife.

 

[Deeje]

It is not that you and other sects have been falsifying the Bible, it is just that you emphasize different scripture and don't understand that the Bible shouldn't be taken as a whole because it was written and edited by different people with different theological agendas.

What makes you think that? When Jesus said that God's word is truth, he was speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures as they were available to Jews in the first century. When the Talmud basically replaced the Hebrew Torah in the minds of men, oral tradition scrambled the law into a nightmare of rigid not-picking. Jesus denounced the Pharisees for doing that. Jesus and the apostles quoted from the whole of scripture, which Paul said was "inspired of God and beneficial for teaching..." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The entirety of God's word is what we can use to guide our lives.
The various parts of the Bible are completely compatible and in harmony, as one would expect as guidance from an all powerful God. There are no different theological agendas promoted in God's word. It is one story from Genesis to Revelation.

It is obvious when you apply the methods of Biblical criticism that the author of Matthew didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus whereas the author of John's gospel did believe in the divinity of Jesus.

How do you figure that? Matthew relates how the pre-human Jesus was to come into the world in the form of a child born to the ones chosen by God to raise him.

In defining Christ's "divinity" you have to understand what that means. Christ can be a divine being without being God himself. He was sent by God, received Holy Spirit from God and when he was put to death, he was resurrected by God. Christ's divinity did not facilitate any of that.....his Father did.

John's gospel is grossly misinterpreted by the churches. The apostles did not contradict one another. After three and a half years being personally educated by the son of God, how could they come to different conclusions?

 

[sooda]

What makes you think that? When Jesus said that God's word is truth, he was speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures as they were available to Jews in the first century. When the Talmud basically replaced the Hebrew Torah in the minds of men, oral tradition scrambled the law into a nightmare of rigid not-picking. Jesus denounced the Pharisees for doing that. Jesus and the apostles quoted from the whole of scripture, which Paul said was "inspired of God and beneficial for teaching..." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The entirety of God's word is what we can use to guide our lives.
The various parts of the Bible are completely compatible and in harmony, as one would expect as guidance from an all powerful God. There are no different theological agendas promoted in God's word. It is one story from Genesis to Revelation.



How do you figure that? Matthew relates how the pre-human Jesus was to come into the world in the form of a child born to the ones chosen by God to raise him.

In defining Christ's "divinity" you have to understand what that means. Christ can be a divine being without being God himself. He was sent by God, received Holy Spirit from God and when he was put to death, he was resurrected by God. Christ's divinity did not facilitate any of that.....his Father did.

John's gospel is grossly misinterpreted by the churches. The apostles did not contradict one another. After three and a half years being personally educated by the son of God, how could they come to different conclusions?

When did the Talmud replace the Torah?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

What makes you think that?

How do you figure that?

Biblical Criticism.

Biblical criticism - Wikipedia

 

[sooda]

Biblical Criticism.

Biblical criticism - Wikipedia

Yep.. historical criticism is non-sectarian in nature.

Do you know when the Talmud overtook the Torah????

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Yep.. historical criticism is non-sectarian in nature.

Do you know when the Talmud overtook the Torah????

I thought the Talmud was just a commentary on the Torah like other Bible commentaries

 

[sooda]

I thought the Talmud was just a commentary on the Torah like other Bible commentaries

@Tumah

Yeah the Talmud is a book of commentary, but Deeje said it replaced the Torah in Jesus time. That makes no sense to me.. I thought the Talmud was still work in progress from the 2nd century to the 5th century AD.

Do you know anything about this?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

@Tumah

Yeah the Talmud is a book of commentary, but Deeje said it replaced the Torah in Jesus time. That makes no sense to me.. I thought the Talmud was still work in progress from the 2nd century to the 5th century AD.

Do you know anything about this?

Jesus appears to have no awareness of the Talmud

 

[Deeje]

When did the Talmud replace the Torah?

I said "in the minds of men" the Talmud became more important than God's word, but it was legalistically skewed out of all proportion....in much the same way as the Catechism is more important to Catholics than the Bible. Some I have spoken to over the years didn't know there was a difference.

ETA: Just to be clear....Jesus constantly castigated the Pharisees for their overstepping the Scriptures in his day to comply with tradition. They have continued to do that with commentaries like the Talmud being more important than God's word.

 

[Deeje]

Biblical Criticism.

Biblical criticism - Wikipedia

Did God inspire Biblical criticism? It is the work of men. The Bible explains itself. Scripture always backs up scripture.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Did God inspire Biblical criticism?

Did God give us reason and rationality? Did God tell us to test all things? The Bible doesn't explain itself, people explain it.