Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[Vinayaka]

9 is lots of fun. I see all letters and all numbers have a far deeper meaning in creation.

I see we waltz through life ignorant of many things, all taken for granted.

Regards Tony

Math is just math. Has no deep meaning. But if you want to see deep meaning in everything, by all means go ahead.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Math is just math. Has no deep meaning. But if you want to see deep meaning in everything, by all means go ahead.

I see that like a negative My sums are more positive inclined

I bet a mathematician would argue otherwise, as a great deal of our material advancement has been driven by Mathematical equations, we search for meaning using maths!

As such, I see it is tied to all that is spiritual.....but I can positively say you are free to see it has no deep meaning.

Regards Tony

 

[Milton Platt]

I see it in another light. It depends if we choose to become motivated to find out who we really are.

We start at the knowledge of what creates a strong and loving families and what breaks that bond. Even if we do not yet see it, that knowledge is the knowledge of God and all the Messages given by all the Messengers.

The knowledge is the image we have been created in. The journey starts when we look to find out who we are. If we find one Messenger we have in reality found them all, but again it takes more personal reflection to see beyond what is self.

Regards Tony

Makes no sense, Tony. But we will have to agree to disagree, I guess.
The best to you.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see that like a negative My sums are more positive inclined

I bet a mathematician would argue otherwise, as a great deal of our material advancement has been driven by Mathematical equations, we search for meaning using maths!

As such, I see it is tied to all that is spiritual.....but I can positively say you are free to see it has no deep meaning.

My personal problem with seeing deep meaning in everything is that it has a leveling effect. Everything is special. The car key is special. A movie is special. Trees growing are special. A waterfall is special. The letter k is special. Then when something actually impressive happens what does one say. My elementary education major was math. I'm no mathematician but as an intro to some math games or even intro to number theory I suppose 9 might be looked at. But it's still just math. It's not the energy of he Who Has One Tusk changing my life with his mystical wink, or the Guru giving diksha at the feet of the Lord Who dances in Thillai.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Makes no sense, Tony. But we will have to agree to disagree, I guess.
The best to you.

All the best to you always Milton. Always good to see your input.

My explanations are born out of few passages in the many writings from around the world.

Such as the Bible when it says every eye shall see the Messiah. How can that be?

Baha'u'llah also said every being was made new with the revelation of the Bab and His subsequent revelation. But who knows that as well?

Thus the comments are either True, or false. As I see they speak naught but the Truth, I see the delema is mine to sort out.

I also understand that many others would have no interest to pursue that course of action.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My personal problem with seeing deep meaning in everything is that it has a leveling effect. Everything is special. The car key is special. A movie is special. Trees growing are special. A waterfall is special. The letter k is special. Then when something actually impressive happens what does one say. My elementary education major was math. I'm no mathematician but as an intro to some math games or even intro to number theory I suppose 9 might be looked at. But it's still just math. It's not the energy of he Who Has One Tusk changing my life with his mystical wink, or the Guru giving diksha at the feet of the Lord Who dances in Thillai.

I also personally see everything is special. I have seen when we look deeper, the more special it all becomes, the more the entire fabric of existence becomes bound together.

My wife always tells me she sees the world different from others. When she looks at a tree, she sees all that tree is. Each leaf, each branch, each insect comes into focus. We often walk and I pass a shrub and I will be pulled back, Tony look at this, did you not see this beauty.

I'm still an apprentice

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Thus the comments are either True, or false.

I view beliefs as neither true nor false. They're just beliefs. The two words: true, and false: are outside of belief. There is no evidence either way. The insistence to hold a belief as either true or false leads to unnecessary argument, and peeing contests, the classical metaphor for ego based debate. For me, it makes far more sense to remain aloof from such hard and fast ideas. But I guess that's just too deep.

 

[Vinayaka]

I also personally see everything is special.

Also to whom? I don't see everything as special. Most of life is just normal stuff.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I view beliefs as neither true nor false. They're just beliefs. The two words: true, and false: are outside of belief. There is no evidence either way. The insistence to hold a belief as either true or false leads to unnecessary argument, and peeing contests, the classical metaphor for ego based debate. For me, it makes far more sense to remain aloof from such hard and fast ideas. But I guess that's just too deep.

Or just a different way to look at the same thing.

Like my wife and I as noted in the next post.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Also to whom? I don't see everything as special. Most of life is just normal stuff.

Life is for you to see and live as you choose.

That is for some of us, others do not get such freedoms. Then, they still have choices as to how to view life with those restrictions.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

someone who lived on the other side of the earth and didn’t even knew the middle east existed, much less some jewish guy in the desert, wouldn’t be “looking” for him. That is an absurd thing to say.

That's a good point. That's why I wanted Tony to give me some of the prophecies from a few different religions. The Baha'is claim that there is one God. That God sent messengers with a message that progressed from one messenger to the next. Each messenger supposedly fulfilled some prophecies and gave some prophecies about the next guy. If that is true, then a true "seeker" of the one God would know the prophecies and what to look for to find that next messenger. But, did Hindus have prophecies about Moses? Did Buddhists have prophecies leading them to Muhammad?

I know Christians have prophecies they take from the Jewish Bible and say they were fulfilled by Jesus. I know Baha'is say that all religions have prophecies that they say point to their guy, Baha'u'llah... and The Bab. But who even knows what were really prophesies? Christians and Baha'is tell us after the fact the verses they say were prophecies. So naturally their guy fulfilled them. But after taking a closer look at some of them, I felt most were vague and taken out of context. So prophecy, for me, becomes almost useless, because each religion can make up their own interpretation of a verse and show how their prophet fulfilled it.

Good spiritual Christians are not looking for a guy that died over a 100 years ago, that came from Persia, to be the return of their Lord and Savior Jesus. They know what they are looking for and Baha'u'llah wasn't it. But, then the same for spiritual Jews... Jesus didn't fulfill their prophecies. He fulfilled the prophecies that the Christians made up after Jesus had come and gone. So who's looking? Lots of people are looking now. And they are finding all sorts of new and better religions. But who was looking for Jesus 150 years ago? A few people and most of them were Shia Muslims?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, I have contemplated answering this, I see this ground has been well covered.

This link lists some of the prophecies - Prophecies from the Bible - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

Prophecy can make or break the claims of a new religious movement, and there are many. Some of them very well could be totally false. Why did the Jews reject, not only Jesus, but others that claimed to be the Messiah? Why do Jews and Christians reject Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? They very well could point to some things that weren't fulfilled. What are those things? Why do Baha'is claim they've fulfilled prophecies from every major religion? How can they fulfill things when Baha'is don't even believe the Scriptures of those religions are totally accurate?

But the big problem is that most things that Baha'is say about verses in the other religions, especially those from the NT and the Bible, is that they are symbolic. So anybody can come up with pretty much any interpretation. In fact Baha'is make things in the NT that are written as if real and historical, not real, not literal, but symbolic. Jesus talks with and is tempted by Satan? Symbolic. The disciples talk with the risen Jesus. Not literal, but symbolic. So if Baha'is can make those things disappear, then how much more easily is it for them to change and manipulate prophecy? Very easy. The Three Woes from Revelation? Sure sounds like horrible judgements from God on the evil people of the Earth. But no, for Baha'is the Three Woes are prophecies about the coming of Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

But worry not, you are in good company. I think what Matthew has done in his gospel is just as bad. He takes things that no one would think as prophecy. He takes just a verse of two totally out of context and creates fulfilled prophecy. "Out of Egypt" God called his Son? Did the baby Jesus really ever go to Egypt? Christians say yes, because Matthew said so. No one else did, but Matthew did. Same with Herod's men killing all the infant boys in area Bethlehem area. He finds a verse that is fulfilled by that event. But no one else mentions that Herod ever command the killing of these kids.

Any way, progressive revelation and vague and out of context prophecies are my main issues with the Baha'i Faith. Other than that, you guys are the best.

 

[Spartan]

I stand by what I said.

{quote]You as an unbeliever don't get to tell Christians how and what they should believe. ]/quote]
Actually I usually leave Christians alone. You believe in God (albeit a muddled monotheism) and are good moral folks. That is all that God asks of Gentiles.

However, this is a debate board, and the issue has been brought up for discussion. And so I'm simply participating. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, perhaps debate isn't for you?

Hogwash. This is one of the most presumptive claims of Christianity.

Anyone should be able to read the texts, with the help of scholars, and determine the truth.

Christians don't have any sort of special supernatural help in discernment. Discernment is a form of wisdom gained from a natural talent honed by many years of experience.

It is not some sort of miraculous "gift of the holy spirit." If it were the "holy spirit" that you gain from conversion to Chrisitanity, you would not have thousands of denominations split by competing interpretations.

Let me help you out with your befuddlement. These will help you get on the right track:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

“The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;

"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;

"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

“Miracles – The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts,” by Craig S. Keener

“The Case for Miracles,” by Lee Strobel

 

[JJ50]

Let me help you out with your befuddlement. These will help you get on the right track:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

“The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;

"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;

"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

“Miracles – The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts,” by Craig S. Keener

“The Case for Miracles,” by Lee Strobel

Authors with an axe to grind, they can hardly be said to be unbiased. !

 

[Maponos]

Most people tend to reject insane "prophets" or cult leaders.

 

[Spartan]

Authors with an axe to grind, they can hardly be said to be unbiased. !

Telling the truth about historical events is having an "ax to grind"?

You really make some silly claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But the big problem is that most things that Baha'is say about verses in the other religions, especially those from the NT and the Bible, is that they are symbolic. So anybody can come up with pretty much any interpretation.

The Key here is that Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope the Queen and all of Christianity. (Also entire humanity), proclaimed He was the One they are waiting for and provided the proof in explanations.

Neglect to pursue that claim does not invalidate the claim. Christianity will soon wake up to that claim, that assurance has been foretold. When they do the pulpits will be alive trying to show people the falsity of such a claim. It is that action that will bring about people's desire to find out for themselves.

Strange how it works

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Prophecy can make or break the claims of a new religious movement, and there are many. Some of them very well could be totally false. Why did the Jews reject, not only Jesus, but others that claimed to be the Messiah? Why do Jews and Christians reject Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? They very well could point to some things that weren't fulfilled. What are those things? Why do Baha'is claim they've fulfilled prophecies from every major religion? How can they fulfill things when Baha'is don't even believe the Scriptures of those religions are totally accurate?

But the big problem is that most things that Baha'is say about verses in the other religions, especially those from the NT and the Bible, is that they are symbolic. So anybody can come up with pretty much any interpretation. In fact Baha'is make things in the NT that are written as if real and historical, not real, not literal, but symbolic. Jesus talks with and is tempted by Satan? Symbolic. The disciples talk with the risen Jesus. Not literal, but symbolic. So if Baha'is can make those things disappear, then how much more easily is it for them to change and manipulate prophecy? Very easy. The Three Woes from Revelation? Sure sounds like horrible judgements from God on the evil people of the Earth. But no, for Baha'is the Three Woes are prophecies about the coming of Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

But worry not, you are in good company. I think what Matthew has done in his gospel is just as bad. He takes things that no one would think as prophecy. He takes just a verse of two totally out of context and creates fulfilled prophecy. "Out of Egypt" God called his Son? Did the baby Jesus really ever go to Egypt? Christians say yes, because Matthew said so. No one else did, but Matthew did. Same with Herod's men killing all the infant boys in area Bethlehem area. He finds a verse that is fulfilled by that event. But no one else mentions that Herod ever command the killing of these kids.

Any way, progressive revelation and vague and out of context prophecies are my main issues with the Baha'i Faith. Other than that, you guys are the best.

You mean Hosea 3? Its ridiculous .. Hosea is talking about Israel not Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

You mean Hosea 3? Its ridiculous .. Hosea is talking about Israel not Jesus.

So the problem for Baha'is is for them to be true Jesus and Muhammad have to be true messengers from the same God. I'm sure there's questions about fulfilled prophecy about Muhammad, but I know that there is problems with prophecies about Jesus. So should Jews have left their religion and accept Jesus and help build a new religion? Not if Jesus did not fulfill the major and accepted and known prophecies the Jews had... like establishing peace or whatever he was supposed to do. But then, Christians, especially Matthew in his gospel, seem to be fabricating after the fact prophecies from verses taken out of context.

So why should the Jews have believed the Christians that Jesus was their Messiah? Did he bring peace? No. And what religion did Christianity become? A religion filled with doctrines that Jews do not and cannot accept... easily. Some do accept them and now they believe Jesus as God. But, that notion is rejected by the supposed messengers that came after Jesus, Muhammad, The Bah and Baha'u'llah.

So Christianity has flaky, vague prophecies that I feel were fabricated. And Islam and the Baha'i Faith reject many major doctrines of the Christian religion. So, for them, the religion is based on false beliefs. Then, why should the Jews have left Judaism to become Christians? But then, to continue in the Baha'i progression of messengers sent by God. The Jews then should have listened to and accepted what Muhammad taught. And now, what The Bab and Baha'u'llah have taught.

Did any fulfill the Jewish prophecies about who and what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to do? I wonder, why not listen to the Jews? Of course the Christians and Muslims and Baha'is are going to say that the Jews should have. And come up with vague, out of context prophecies to prove their point? Yes, I agree, it sounds ridiculous. Prophecies are only true to the believers in the religion that is claiming to have fulfilled them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Most people tend to reject insane "prophets" or cult leaders.

You've maybe heard the "trilemma"... Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or... the Son of the living God, The Messiah, God himself etc. Or, I'll paraphrase Bart Erhman, he was a legend. But how much myth and legend do you have to add to the story of a real man to come up with the Legend of Jesus?

One helluva a lot. Did a star keep moving across the sky and stop over the place where Jesus was born? His mother never had sex with a man, yet got pregnant? Did he walk on water? Tell the wind to stop blowing? Tell a dead man to come back to life? Did several people come out of their graves and walk around Jerusalem? Did he himself die and come back to life then ascend up into the sky?

Christians today are taught by many sects to believe all of this literally. Are they cults? Well the Baha'is do not help the situation, they say most of those things didn't literally happen but were only symbolic stories. My complaint about that is that it makes the gospel stories fantasy, fairytales, embellished fabrications. So, for me, is Christianity and the New Testament a book of lies? Something written by crazed followers of a cult hero? Or the truth from God?

Baha'is say it is the "truth" from God but with a lot of grains of salt added. The big one... They say that Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead and ascend into the sky. That's all symbolic. Jesus is dead and buried. His spirit rose. Not his physical body. So for 2000 years Christian leaders have been teaching a false message. So, if the Baha'is are correct, then anybody that has rejected the lies about Jesus that have been spread by Christian leaders... they were the ones that were right.

Now what do we do with the Baha'i Faith and their prophet, Baha'u'llah? Was he a liar? Was he insane? Or... is he from the one true God? Or... more myth, legend and embellishments? What seems to be their story is that all the past religions had their validity issues. The "original" message was lost and/or distorted. But now we have the real, genuine truth from God. And all the things that have been added into the past religions to distort the truth have been revealed and cleared up by Baha'u'llah. So the messenger was real and telling the truth. It was his insane, self-serving followers that were liars and screwed up the religion.