Why Atheism is a Belief System

[atanu]

And what error is that? Of course I demand at least a shred of evidence of God. As for Mother Goose, or any possible figment of human imagination. Pending that, i am justified to disbelief them, all equally, without providing any counter evidence of them.

Saying it is unknowable, does not help. Too easy. Everybody can do that. I could declare Mother Goose unknowable, yet that would not be enough to dismiss any belief in Mother Goose without evidence. Including dismissing the claim that it is unknowable.

In other words: you are complicating, or declaring deep, something which is very simple and not deep at all. At best, it is a deepity.

Ciao

- viole

I have already said god is not an object of cognition that you can provide objective proof.

 

[ArtieE]

Nonsense.

Would you care to elaborate?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Are you now perhaps talking about atheists who are also rationalists? Then you might say that atheists who are also rationalists should be able to explain why they are atheists using reason, logic and evidence.

I said reason, logic and/or evidence. Some atheists appear to be empiricists and not rationalists, hence and/or.

 

[ArtieE]

Existence isn't a predicate.

Is what I wrote correct? Yes or no?

 

[QuestioningMind]

“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” my friend suddenly declared from across the coffee shop table. He took a sip of espresso and stared intently at me, clearly awaiting a response. I paused, my cinnamon roll halfway to my mouth, as I digested what he’d just said.


“Pardon?”


“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” he repeated. “I think it’s just a political conspiracy, designed to motivate other European citizens to work harder. All that talk of the best health care system, the highest standard of living, of tall and beautiful people. It sounds like a myth and I’m not buying it. I don’t believe in Sweden.”


I stared at my friend silently for a moment, allowing the sounds of the coffee shop to drift over us as I pondered. In the background, the radio began playing ‘Dancing Queen’ by Abba.


“What do you mean, ‘You don’t believe in Sweden’?” I finally replied. “That’s insane. If Sweden doesn’t exist, how do you explain IKEA furniture, or the Swedish chef on The Muppet Show, or what glues Norway to Finland? That’s a staggering claim! What’s your evidence?”


“What do you mean ‘evidence’?” he asked.


“Evidence,” I said. “You must have more than just a hunch but some pretty impressive evidence for your belief. I know Sweden only has 9.5 million inhabitants, but you can’t simply deny outright that it exists!”


“Aha,” said my friend sagely, “I see your confusion. You think that my denial of Sweden is a belief. But it’s simply a non-belief and so I don’t need to give evidence for it.”


“Come again?” I said.


“Yes,” he continued, warming to his theme, “I don’t have to provide evidence for my non-belief in Atlantis, El Dorado, or Shangri-La and nor do I need to do so for my non-belief in Sweden. You see I’m not making a claim of any kind—quite the opposite: I’m claiming nothing, I’m merely rejecting one of your beliefs—your belief in Sweden.”
Why Atheism Is a Belief System | Zacharias Trust | RZIM Europe

Thoughts?

Okay, fine... let's go ahead and redefine a lack of belief in something as a belief system. What have we accomplished? Well, what we've done is we have now decided that every single human being has an infinite number of belief systems, since there are an infinite number of things that a person can lack belief in. Your lack of belief in magical pixies is now your belief system. Your lack of belief in the Easter Bunny is now another of your belief systems. Your lack of belief in an animated 1000 foot tall Stay Puff Marshmallow Man is yet another of your belief systems.

As I said, this can go on forever.

 

[ArtieE]

Nonsense. I did not say ‘to not believe and to disbelieve ‘. Please read correctly, at least.

The correct statement for a sentient being to say is “I neither believe nor disbelieve.”

Lack of belief is true for stones or babies or trees.

The correct statement for a sentient being to say is "I neither believe God exists nor do I believe God does not exist. I am undecided. I lack both those beliefs."

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay, fine... let's go ahead and redefine a lack of belief in something as a belief system. What have we accomplished? Well, what we've done is we have now decided that every single human being has an infinite number of belief systems, since there are an infinite number of things that a person can lack belief in. Your lack of belief in magical pixies is now your belief system. Your lack of belief in the Easter Bunny is now another of your belief systems. Your lack of belief in an animated 1000 foot tall Stay Puff Marshmallow Man is yet another of your belief systems.

As I said, this can go on forever.

Or that no human is an atheist only and all have other positive beliefs and not only a lack of belief and then start there.

 

[atanu]

Would you care to elaborate?

Gladly. Please re read post 79.

 

[ArtieE]

Gladly. Please re read post 79.

It still doesn't make sense... please provide a more detailed, logical and rational post. Leaving out references to stones and trees might help.

 

[Willamena]

Is what I wrote correct? Yes or no?

Not by my thinking. But we've been over this a zillion times.

 

[ArtieE]

Not by my thinking. But we've been over this a zillion times.

Then have you considered there might be something wrong with your thinking? There certainly is nothing wrong with my logic and reasoning...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” my friend suddenly declared from across the coffee shop table. He took a sip of espresso and stared intently at me, clearly awaiting a response. I paused, my cinnamon roll halfway to my mouth, as I digested what he’d just said.


“Pardon?”


“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” he repeated. “I think it’s just a political conspiracy, designed to motivate other European citizens to work harder. All that talk of the best health care system, the highest standard of living, of tall and beautiful people. It sounds like a myth and I’m not buying it. I don’t believe in Sweden.”


I stared at my friend silently for a moment, allowing the sounds of the coffee shop to drift over us as I pondered. In the background, the radio began playing ‘Dancing Queen’ by Abba.


“What do you mean, ‘You don’t believe in Sweden’?” I finally replied. “That’s insane. If Sweden doesn’t exist, how do you explain IKEA furniture, or the Swedish chef on The Muppet Show, or what glues Norway to Finland? That’s a staggering claim! What’s your evidence?”


“What do you mean ‘evidence’?” he asked.


“Evidence,” I said. “You must have more than just a hunch but some pretty impressive evidence for your belief. I know Sweden only has 9.5 million inhabitants, but you can’t simply deny outright that it exists!”


“Aha,” said my friend sagely, “I see your confusion. You think that my denial of Sweden is a belief. But it’s simply a non-belief and so I don’t need to give evidence for it.”


“Come again?” I said.


“Yes,” he continued, warming to his theme, “I don’t have to provide evidence for my non-belief in Atlantis, El Dorado, or Shangri-La and nor do I need to do so for my non-belief in Sweden. You see I’m not making a claim of any kind—quite the opposite: I’m claiming nothing, I’m merely rejecting one of your beliefs—your belief in Sweden.”
Why Atheism Is a Belief System | Zacharias Trust | RZIM Europe

Thoughts?

People don't have to believe in Sweden. But personally I've been there and have Swedish friends, and drink Swedish beer.

So I guess when God comes down for a beer with me I'll no longer be an atheist.

 

[Curious George]

“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” my friend suddenly declared from across the coffee shop table. He took a sip of espresso and stared intently at me, clearly awaiting a response. I paused, my cinnamon roll halfway to my mouth, as I digested what he’d just said.


“Pardon?”


“I don’t believe that Sweden exists,” he repeated. “I think it’s just a political conspiracy, designed to motivate other European citizens to work harder. All that talk of the best health care system, the highest standard of living, of tall and beautiful people. It sounds like a myth and I’m not buying it. I don’t believe in Sweden.”


I stared at my friend silently for a moment, allowing the sounds of the coffee shop to drift over us as I pondered. In the background, the radio began playing ‘Dancing Queen’ by Abba.


“What do you mean, ‘You don’t believe in Sweden’?” I finally replied. “That’s insane. If Sweden doesn’t exist, how do you explain IKEA furniture, or the Swedish chef on The Muppet Show, or what glues Norway to Finland? That’s a staggering claim! What’s your evidence?”


“What do you mean ‘evidence’?” he asked.


“Evidence,” I said. “You must have more than just a hunch but some pretty impressive evidence for your belief. I know Sweden only has 9.5 million inhabitants, but you can’t simply deny outright that it exists!”


“Aha,” said my friend sagely, “I see your confusion. You think that my denial of Sweden is a belief. But it’s simply a non-belief and so I don’t need to give evidence for it.”


“Come again?” I said.


“Yes,” he continued, warming to his theme, “I don’t have to provide evidence for my non-belief in Atlantis, El Dorado, or Shangri-La and nor do I need to do so for my non-belief in Sweden. You see I’m not making a claim of any kind—quite the opposite: I’m claiming nothing, I’m merely rejecting one of your beliefs—your belief in Sweden.”
Why Atheism Is a Belief System | Zacharias Trust | RZIM Europe

Thoughts?

I think that it is clear that any persons atheism is a system of belief. However with mutually exclusive definitions of atheism (not believing in god and believing god does not exist) it would be more appropriate to not that atheism denotes two distinct systems of belief.

Either way we are categorizing what a person does in fact believe.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What even is an “atheist?”

Wouldn’t people have to define something first before not believing in it?

Is theism not defined?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheism is a belief system though atheists will claim it is absence of belief. However , they believe , contrary to nature, humans, humans being akin to apes in large percentage of DNA and yet unique in having a larynx so as to speak, unlike apes, that regardless of all that exists there is no evidence that anything labeled creator or god exists.
Meanwhile, those who cleave to science don't realize that science has no concrete answer for first cause. And while religion is faith, that science that tries to explain first cause holds to theory only.
There is no God! Skepticism isn't proof.

And would a court decision help your statement? An atheist brought a case against officials during his incarceration. He claimed his religious freedom under the 1st was being abridged.
He won.

United States Court of Appeals,Seventh Circuit.
James J. KAUFMAN, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. Gary R. McCAUGHTRY, et al., Defendants-Appellees.
No. 04-1914.
Decided: August 19, 2005
FindLaw's United States Seventh Circuit case and opinions.

Have you read that finding? It specifically talks about atheism NOT being a religion, but that it should be provided First Amendment protections along the same lines as a religion.

Further, Kaufman deliberately ONLY claimed first amendment protections, and not additional religious protections.

What was your point on this?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think that it is clear that any persons atheism is a system of belief. However with mutually exclusive definitions of atheism (not believing in god and believing god does not exist) it would be more appropriate to not that atheism denotes two distinct systems of belief.

Either way we are categorizing what a person does in fact believe.

Atheism certainly forms part of my beliefs.
But it's not a belief system in the way Catholicism is.

 

[atanu]

People don't have to believe in Sweden. But personally I've been there and have Swedish friends, and drink Swedish beer.

But God is not an object. It is the subject.

So I guess when God comes down for a beer with me I'll no longer be an atheist.

Either you can believe that insentient nature developed taste for beer or you can correctly discern that the seeking of sensual delights come from the Being that is consciousness of all.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But God is not an object. It is the subject.

If I write a tale about Swedish Beer, it gets to be both object and subject. I wouldn't dare limit God more than Swedish Beer.

Either you can believe that insentient nature developed taste for beer or you can correctly discern that the seeking of sensual delights come from the Being that is consciousness of all.

I love that you give me a choice AND tell me only one is correct all in the same sentence. Saves me from having to think for myself at all. Cheers!

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, fine... let's go ahead and redefine a lack of belief in something as a belief system. What have we accomplished? Well, what we've done is we have now decided that every single human being has an infinite number of belief systems, since there are an infinite number of things that a person can lack belief in. Your lack of belief in magical pixies is now your belief system. Your lack of belief in the Easter Bunny is now another of your belief systems. Your lack of belief in an animated 1000 foot tall Stay Puff Marshmallow Man is yet another of your belief systems.

As I said, this can go on forever.

One of the points made is that a belief is causal. It causes you to act/respond to life in certain ways. We have a whole holiday, lore surrounding the Easter Bunny. Folks hide eggs, eat too much candy etc... It you are asked to partake in an Easter egg hunt but refuse because of your lack of belief is causal. I'm not sure how causal a belief in the 1000 foot tall Stay Puff Marshmallow Man would be. If your were asked to wear a funny sailor's hat and refused because of your lack of belief, that would be causal.

So if you are aware of religion and your non-belief in it causes you to act in a certain way kind of hard to say that it is simply a lack of belief.

 

[Nakosis]

For me it is very simple

If someone declares "I believe in God" then the word "God" is created and defined
If Atheist then claims "I disbelieve (lack belief) in God" is just funny
You might as well say "I believe not in God(s)"

If you have a problem with that, then just be silent
After a while the word "God" disappears from mind
And then you really "lack belief in God"

Whatever you focus on and give energy ... "belief in God" (or not) makes it stronger
You might end up creating "God" for yourself in the end
You don't want to do that to yourself, or do you?

Lack of belief is passive, non-belief is active. Non-belief in something would seem part of one's belief system. I suppose that is why we atheists claim a lack of belief. Are we lying to ourselves about that?