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Why Atheism is a Belief System

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
If you were a theist first you chose to become a strong atheist. If you were not a theist first you were a (weak) atheist who chose to become a strong atheist.

As long as we agree there is a choice involved.

How condescending. You think you are better than others and have more "self awareness" just because you have made a choice between believing in the existence or non-existence of God?

Not better, just different. Different experiences. Do you disagree that there are people who don't see what they believe in as a choice they made. Are you saying this is not true?

To me it's a fact. I've a lot of experience dealing people, discussing with them their religious beliefs. I don't see how a fact can be condescending. It is just a statement of fact.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Not better, just different. Different experiences. Do you disagree that there are people who don't see what they believe in as a choice they made. Are you saying this is not true?
Please rephrase.
To me it's a fact. I've a lot of experience dealing people, discussing with them their religious beliefs. I don't see how a fact can be condescending. It is just a statement of fact.
It's a fact that people without enough self awareness don't make a choice between believing in the existence or non-existence of God while people with enough self awareness do?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Please rephrase.It's a fact that people without enough self awareness don't make a choice between believing in the existence or non-existence of God while people with enough self awareness do?

Ok, so do you believe there are people who don't feel they made a conscious choice about what they believe. Say for example the children of parents who've been indoctrinated into a religious belief by their parents?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Ok, so do you believe there are people who don't feel they made a conscious choice about what they believe. Say for example the children of parents who've been indoctrinated into a religious belief by their parents?
What is the point of this question?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I haven't decided anything for you. My point/my argument is that I don't see a point in claiming atheism is not a belief. I'm looking for a counter argument. i.e. debate which I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong about.

So I'm not insisting you agree on anything. I am simply looking for a convincing argument that shows I am wrong.
I have given you argument after argument, at the end of which you always return to the same statement, that atheism is a belief. You do not say WHAT it is supposed to believe, though, have you noticed that?

I have also said, many times on this forum, that there are in fact many things that I do believe, with or without what might be called real evidence. This is true for every human alive. We can't function without our beliefs. My treatment of others, for example, is informed by my attachment to the humanist philosophy. I can't prove the basic tenets of humanism, but I accept them. To give the very short version of what that is, I think of humanism as an outlook or system of thought (which you are free to call "beliefs") attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters, and stressing the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasizing common human needs, and seeking solely rational ways of solving human problems.

So, if somebody comes to me and says, "you should treat others kindly because that's what God wants, and if you don't, you'll go to Hell," I can reply, "sorry, I don't believe that -- I treat others kindly because that is the right thing to do for me, and I don't expect a heavenly reward for not doing so, nor do I expect to be punished if, in a merely human moment, I fail to live up to my own ideals." That is not caused by atheism. Atheism doesn't figure into why I treat people the way I do. I am driven by my carefully and long-thought about, philosophy. In the absence of any "rules" from some supernatural source, I have had to think about who I am, and what it means to be me in the world in which I find myself.

So if you think that, for me, atheism is "a belief system," as you put it, then you have to tell me how that systems informs my actions. What does not believing in God make me feel I must do? (My own answer is: nothing, I don't consider a deity in anything that I do, with the single exception of answering those who insist that I should think of a deity.)
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
As long as we agree there is a choice involved.
I entirely disagree with the idea that beliefs are "chosen."

Your earliest beliefs come from what you were told when you were growing up. It is perfectly natural (and even evolutionarily necessary) for children to believe what they're told by adults closest to them. It's key to survival.

However, on becoming an adult oneself, one begins to see for oneself, and sometimes that means seeing evidence that contradicts what one originally believes, and/or not seeing any evidence, where there should be some, for those beliefs. If a person honestly considers such evidence, then unsupported beliefs begin to fade.

The only people who can really "choose" to believe something in the face of contradictory evidence are people purposefully deluding themselves, for some reason or other that I can't understand. But that is also part of what human nature is about. We are, of all species, the most susceptible to cognitive dissonance.

By the way, it is an interesting fact that people who have a higher need for consistency and security in their lives are much more susceptible to cognitive dissonance than those who have lesser need for consistency. I have a very high tolerance for ambiguity, and am not uncomfortable when things are uncertain or confused.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I have given you argument after argument, at the end of which you always return to the same statement, that atheism is a belief.

No, my question is why argue against the idea that atheism is a belief. Is there any point to be made claiming it is not a belief?

You do not say WHAT it is supposed to believe, though, have you noticed that?

Why would I do that? I can tell you what I believe, but I see no reason to go about telling others what they should believe.

I have also said, many times on this forum, that there are in fact many things that I do believe, with or without what might be called real evidence. This is true for every human alive. We can't function without our beliefs. My treatment of others, for example, is informed by my attachment to the humanist philosophy. I can't prove the basic tenets of humanism, but I accept them. To give the very short version of what that is, I think of humanism as an outlook or system of thought (which you are free to call "beliefs") attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters, and stressing the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasizing common human needs, and seeking solely rational ways of solving human problems.

So, if somebody comes to me and says, "you should treat others kindly because that's what God wants, and if you don't, you'll go to Hell," I can reply, "sorry, I don't believe that -- I treat others kindly because that is the right thing to do for me, and I don't expect a heavenly reward for not doing so, nor do I expect to be punished if, in a merely human moment, I fail to live up to my own ideals." That is not caused by atheism. Atheism doesn't figure into why I treat people the way I do. I am driven by my carefully and long-thought about, philosophy. In the absence of any "rules" from some supernatural source, I have had to think about who I am, and what it means to be me in the world in which I find myself.

So if you think that, for me, atheism is "a belief system," as you put it, then you have to tell me how that systems informs my actions. What does not believing in God make me feel I must do? (My own answer is: nothing, I don't consider a deity in anything that I do, with the single exception of answering those who insist that I should think of a deity.)

I really have no idea what atheism is for you. It's as likely different for each person that makes the claim as not. Well other than you use it as a way to shutdown religious discussion.

The OP is just to discuss the ideas therein. My view is I'm not bothered by the idea of atheism being a belief. I don't think there is an inherent benefit in making a claim either way. So why bother making a claim either way?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
No, my question is why argue against the idea that atheism is a belief. Is there any point to be made claiming it is not a belief?
YES. For the 900th time, the very same reason as saying that not collecting stamps is not a hobby! Have you not actually read a word I've written? Or do you translate them all into something you'd rather hear before they get past your eyeballs and into your brain?
Why would I do that? I can tell you what I believe, but I see no reason to go about telling others what they should believe.
Now, go back through all of my posts, and find one single one where I have told anybody else what they should believe. I have done nothing of the kind. I have merely said what I do not believe (with regards to God), and have admitted to what I do believe, with regards to my philosophy. I have been infinitely more honest than you have, so far.
I really have no idea what atheism is for you. It's as likely different for each person that makes the claim as not. Well other than you use it as a way to shutdown religious discussion.
Well you should have, because I've told you many times now. Atheism is not "something to me." It is simply the way I can best describe my thoughts when I am confronted by those who, like you, assert "truths" about Gods they can't demonstrate and can't even agree on.
The OP is just to discuss the ideas therein. My view is I'm not bothered by the idea of atheism being a belief. I don't think there is an inherent benefit in making a claim either way. So why bother making a claim either way?
No, you have demonstrated now, through many posts directly in response to me, that you do not want to "discuss the ideas therein." You want me to finally give up and say "I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE, OH NOT-GOD, I BELIEVE." And you won't be satisfied until I do. In that, you are very dishonest.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I entirely disagree with the idea that beliefs are "chosen."

Your earliest beliefs come from what you were told when you were growing up. It is perfectly natural (and even evolutionarily necessary) for children to believe what they're told by adults closest to them. It's key to survival.

However, on becoming an adult oneself, one begins to see for oneself, and sometimes that means seeing evidence that contradicts what one originally believes, and/or not seeing any evidence, where there should be some, for those beliefs. If a person honestly considers such evidence, then unsupported beliefs begin to fade.

The only people who can really "choose" to believe something in the face of contradictory evidence are people purposefully deluding themselves, for some reason or other that I can't understand. But that is also part of what human nature is about. We are, of all species, the most susceptible to cognitive dissonance.

By the way, it is an interesting fact that people who have a higher need for consistency and security in their lives are much more susceptible to cognitive dissonance than those who have lesser need for consistency. I have a very high tolerance for ambiguity, and am not uncomfortable when things are uncertain or confused.

Ok, that's fine you disagree. However it is something we do all the time. For example when folks are watching a movie, they know it's not real. It's just actor's playing a part yet we still invest belief into the story to experience whatever emotions result believing what we see on the screen. Deluding ourselves to a truth we know.

For me I've had a lot of practice investing fully into a belief. I can consciously turn it on or off. Why, same reason really. Entertainment.

The "reality" that we experience is filter through the unconscious mind. Because of that we actually can have quite a bit of flexibility in what we experience.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Ok, that's fine you disagree. However it is something we do all the time. For example when folks are watching a movie, they know it's not real. It's just actor's playing a part yet we still invest belief into the story to experience whatever emotions result believing what we see on the screen. Deluding ourselves to a truth we know.
Can you see what you are saying? If, as you say "they know it's not real," then they can't actually "believe." They can USE the actor's brilliance in order to evoke whatever feelings they'd like to invest in, but that's very different from actually believing.

I am a huge theatre lover, I've been to about a trillion plays (slight exaggeration), and many of those several times over. I love how many of my favourite productions speak to my very heart about the things I care about, but I always know what they are.
For me I've had a lot of practice investing fully into a belief. I can consciously turn it on or off. Why, same reason really. Entertainment.
Again, can't you see what you are saying? You are not saying "I believe." You're saying "I'm being entertained." You are not "turning belief on and off," you are suspending belief for a while for personal gratification. Your knowledge of the truth, however, is not changed.
The "reality" that we experience is filter through the unconscious mind. Because of that we actually can have quite a bit of flexibility in what we experience.
\
And that is true, but doesn't present any difficulty to the person who honestly looks at his experiences. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the sensation of being completely carried away by an experience (I frequently am by music and theatre), but the authentic person does actually know, at the end of the performance, the difference between his reality and his wishful thinking.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
YES. For the 900th time, the very same reason as saying that not collecting stamps is not a hobby!

Sorry if you thought you were making point here? I've no problem with the idea of someone making a hobby out of not stamp collecting. Burn every stamp you come across, make sure nobody gets to collect it.

Have you not actually read a word I've written?

Yes, but I think perhaps you actually stuck in an argument with someone else. Perhaps some arguments you've rehashed over and over that keeps running through your mind.

Or do you translate them all into something you'd rather hear before they get past your eyeballs and into your brain?

What do you think I got wrong?

Now, go back through all of my posts, and find one single one where I have told anybody else what they should believe. I have done nothing of the kind. I have merely said what I do not believe (with regards to God), and have admitted to what I do believe, with regards to my philosophy.

Why would I do that? I haven't disputed any thing you've said about yourself. I assume you've been honest about your views.

I have been infinitely more honest than you have, so far.

Sure, feel free to point out where you've thought I've lied.

Well you should have, because I've told you many times now. Atheism is not "something to me." It is simply the way I can best describe my thoughts when I am confronted by those who, like you, assert "truths" about Gods they can't demonstrate and can't even agree on.

Yeah, sorry, whatever argument you've got going on in your head, that's not me. I've no idea what you are talking about.

No, you have demonstrated now, through many posts directly in response to me, that you do not want to "discuss the ideas therein." You want me to finally give up and say "I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE, OH NOT-GOD, I BELIEVE." And you won't be satisfied until I do. In that, you are very dishonest.

Ok, this is just silly. Have fun with your argument. I hope you win.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Can you see what you are saying? If, as you say "they know it's not real," then they can't actually "believe." They can USE the actor's brilliance in order to evoke whatever feelings they'd like to invest in, but that's very different from actually believing.

I am a huge theatre lover, I've been to about a trillion plays (slight exaggeration), and many of those several times over. I love how many of my favourite productions speak to my very heart about the things I care about, but I always know what they are.

Again, can't you see what you are saying? You are not saying "I believe." You're saying "I'm being entertained." You are not "turning belief on and off," you are suspending belief for a while for personal gratification. Your knowledge of the truth, however, is not changed.
\
And that is true, but doesn't present any difficulty to the person who honestly looks at his experiences. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the sensation of being completely carried away by an experience (I frequently am by music and theatre), but the authentic person does actually know, at the end of the performance, the difference between his reality and his wishful thinking.

The more aware one becomes of the interaction between the conscious and unconscious mind the easier it becomes to see this as a possibility.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No, my question is why argue against the idea that atheism is a belief. Is there any point to be made claiming it is not a belief?
Because most atheists are just people who don't believe in God and many are sick and tired of getting asked to "defend their belief" when they don't have one just because people like you insist it is a belief. Is it just to make life more difficult for all the weak atheists in the world that you falsely claim that they have a belief?
"The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist."
Learn About the Definition of Atheism
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Because most atheists are just people who don't believe in God and many are sick and tired of getting asked to "defend their belief" when they don't have one just because people like you insist it is a belief. Is it just to make life more difficult for all the weak atheists in the world that you falsely claim that they have a belief?
"The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist."
Learn About the Definition of Atheism

Isn't this a claim? o_O
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Because most atheists are just people who don't believe in God and many are sick and tired of getting asked to "defend their belief" when they don't have one just because people like you insist it is a belief. Is it just to make life more difficult for all the weak atheists in the world that you falsely claim that they have a belief?
"The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist."
Learn About the Definition of Atheism
Yep. "One without gods".

Straightforward and not confusing.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Sorry if you thought you were making point here? I've no problem with the idea of someone making a hobby out of not stamp collecting. Burn every stamp you come across, make sure nobody gets to collect it.
And there it is...the perfect example of the dishonesty I mentioned. You have taken what I said (about not collecting stamps not being a hobby), and made it into something else...actually collecting every stamp I come across for the purpose of burning it.

Since you can't even be honest with yourself, so bound up in your insistence you are, I think I've had about enough. Maybe your god likes dishonest, for whatever reason. I don't.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
And there it is...the perfect example of the dishonesty I mentioned. You have taken what I said (about not collecting stamps not being a hobby), and made it into something else...actually collecting every stamp I come across for the purpose of burning it.

Since you can't even be honest with yourself, so bound up in your insistence you are, I think I've had about enough. Maybe your god likes dishonest, for whatever reason. I don't.

Definitely, why bother continuing in a conversation with someone who you think is dishonest?
I applaud your decision.

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