Well then that doesn't work for Judaism/Noahidism, which is probably why I didn't understand it. Lol.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, you're right about that. I don't think any Mormon alive who truly understands his religion would say that "it would be perfectly right and just for God to torture gay people in Hell forever."
You're too smart to be making comments like that, and I'm too smart not to have picked up on the fact that you are being deliberately obtuse. This has absolutely nothing to do with how much effort the LDS Church has put into getting discriminatory laws passed against the LGBT community. The point I was making -- and I am 100% sure you didn't miss it -- was that it is entirely possible for a person to believe that certain behaviors are sinful and yet not have any negative feelings whatsoever towards people who engage in those behaviors. My example may have seemed like an exaggerated one, but the point is the valid nevertheless. There are a lot of things that I, as a practicing Mormon, don't do because I don't believe they are things God wants me to do. My moral choices are between me and God; everybody else's moral choices are between them and God (if they believe in God) or between them and their own consciences (if they don't). I know I am not unique in looking at sin in this way.
Well, Boyd K. Packer is probably one of my absolute least favorite LDS General Authorities who has ever lived, and I have disregarded his counsel on more occasions than I can count. Still, the quote you provided did not give much insight into the actual situation that prompted it. It did mention "protecting" oneself. A person need only protect himself by physical means if he is physically threatened. Despite the fact that I know my feelings towards gay people are pretty much opposite to his, I don't believe he was advocating physical violence towards anyone simply because that person was gay. 'Nuff said.
Fair enough. Some observant Mormons probably do hate gay people, but that's more because of the kind of individuals they are than it is a reflection of what their Church's leaders are advocating.
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I have both without following any gods.
Also, many of the religious people I know are either unhappy, unhealthy, or both.
Good for you?
You obviously recognize that that is not what is best for you.
You haven't escaped from that? Sorry to read that.
How does that fit with, "ultimately it is following God and doing His will that brings us happiness and health". You're doing than now, right?
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I just saw your post above after posting this one. Is that all you have to say - "Good for you?" It was a counterargument to your claim that, "ultimately it is following God and doing His will that brings us happiness and health."
I'm not discussing my mental health issues with you.
Mister Silver
Faith's Nightmare
I have found that most people who actively seek religion do so merely to replace it with something else in their life that they do not like, replacing a human crux for a supernatural one in the form of religion.
How can faith, which allows you to believe any idea at all or its polar opposite because you want to, be a path to truth?
You already have. But that's fine. I'm not here to agitate you.
No, I haven't. I was replying to someone else. I've never spoken with you before.
Yes, you are missing something gigantic. This is not Noah's world. It's really different. Procreation isn't inherently a good thing anymore.
Ten thousand years ago procreation was crucial. Everyone lived in tiny communities that were always on the verge of extinction.
But that was then and this is now.
The Human Family is now in far more danger from irresponsible procreation than any lack of it. Lots of the primitive ethics of yore are simply not ethical today. "Be fruitful and multiply" has already been done, and then some. If we are ever to break the cycle of poverty and violence we absolutely need to stop breeding like flies. Non-breeding homosexuals are a start.
Tom
Not here. You are entitled to respect for no reason whatsoever until you forfeit it. It must be lost, not earned.
I think you forgot Zimmerman and the Beatles.
I forget a lot these days.
And I expect it to get worse.
Do I know you?
No! No! You're supposed to say "Get off my lawn ya whippernsapper you!"
PureX
Veteran Member
Eating and pooping are inextricably intertwined, too, but that doesn't mean that we eat just so we can poop.
So, because happiness is not perpetual, as you would have it, you reject it's value and purpose for all humanity?
You have really set yourself up for failure and disappointment, there.
Have you ever read the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible? It is the story of mankind's "original sin". The sin that sets us up for all of mankind's other sins. And most people think, when they read the story, that this sin was the sin of "disobedience". But it's not. Man's original sin is the sin of hubris.The disobedience is only tangential.
See, God told those first humans that they had been given everything they needed to live happily and fulfilled, in their Garden of Eden, but that they were being denied the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could eat all the other fruits in the garden, as they wished, but not that one. But our foolish human egos didn't like the idea of being denied such God-like knowledge, and so it concocted the rationale that God was keeping this knowledge from us, and for Himself, to deny mankind it's rightful place in existence as God's eternal co-equals. And so those first two new humans "ate of the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil". Meaning that they took into themselves the presumption that they possessed this knowledge, even though it had been denied them, by God. And they immediately began passing judgment on all of Creation, including even their own bodies, which they judged shameful according to their own self-centered ideas of how things "should be".
They did not actually receive the knowledge of good and evil, however. All they received was the foolish presumption that they could judge all of existence as if they were gods, themselves. And the only "knowledge" they had by which to pass such judgment was their own selfish desires and expectations. What was deemed "good", to them, is what was good FOR them. What was deemed "evil", to them, was whatever did not serve their own desires and expectations to their own satisfaction. And so those first humans lost their understanding and appreciation of "Eden"; of God's Divine Creation. And we humans have been toiling our lives away ever since, trying to "correct" a reality that was never broken. Trying to make it serve us, exclusively, as if we were God's co-equals, and "the rulers of Eden".
The lesson of the story of Adam and Eve is that Eden was not created to serve us, exclusively. And we were not given the knowledge needed to understand why not. Because we are not 'God's co-equals'. And the moment we forget this, we open our hearts and minds up to all manner of sinful thoughts and behaviors.
The problem is that we are forever trying to fix what was never broken, because we presume it should be serving us exclusively. We are still committing that "original sin" of divine hubris.
When you or I pass judgment on our fellow humans, aren't we really just engaging in that sin of hubris, again, ourselves? Aren't we just presuming unto ourselves that knowledge of good and evil, just as Adam and Eve did in the story? A knowledge that we were never given, and that we have never had? And aren't our judgments really just based on our own ideas about how "creation" should be? Based on our own needs and desires? A creation that we did not create, that we cannot control, and that was never our's to judge?
Presuming to understand why Creation does not serve us, exclusively, is that "original sin" in the story of Adam and Eve and how they lost their place in the Garden of Eden. Your mother didn't know why existence is as it is any more or less than Mother Theresa. And neither do you. Because none of us possesses the "knowledge of good and evil". What God has denied, mankind cannot steal.
And the more we persist in our hubris, the more we suffer as a result. Happiness, and suffering, both, in turn, help teach us how to stop presuming ourselves to be "God's equals".
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I give....wait no, that's inappropriate.
No, but it does mean we should take care about what we eat.
No, I expect humanity to find a deeper level than simply 'happiness'. Happiness alone seems shallow.
Original sin does not exist in my faith.
I agree.
We each are entitled to our own beliefs though, and without making judgements we could never sentence any criminals, create any laws or decide how to run the show. I can pass judgement to say 'He's a tzaddik, 'He's not a tzaddik'. Who do I want to hang around with? Are these the right sort? I will need to make moral judgements in a given scenario. Should I fire this person? Who should I hire? What we judge will never suit everyone.
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PureX
Veteran Member
We can make all the judgements we want. Write them into law, and enforce them as we choose. But what we can't do, at least not honestly, is attribute our judgments to our "divine knowledge of good and evil". Yet, sadly, we humans do this all the time. And we have been paying a very dear price for this hubris throughout our time on Earth.