tytlyf
Not Religious
Here's a clip on that movie. Regulation is a good thing IMO.
[youtube]wVV6dzDOgQ0[/youtube]
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Who's more to blame for the economy? Obama or Congress
- Thread starter tytlyf
- Start date
[youtube]wVV6dzDOgQ0[/youtube]
Of course, regulation can be a good or a bad thing.
It depends upon the regulation in question.
Examples:
Licensing real estate brokers is useful.
Requiring banks to stop extending loans is bad....very bad.
It depends upon the regulation in question.
Examples:
Licensing real estate brokers is useful.
Requiring banks to stop extending loans is bad....very bad.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
You act as if economists are no better than laymen in figuring out how economies work. And you also appear to think that economic theories are "untestable"--that they don't explain observed economic behavior. That just isn't true. Before the repeal of Glass-Steagall under Clinton, we had half a century of liberation from the boom-bust cycles caused by economic bubbles. That is because both political parties used tested fiscal and monetary policies to minimize recessions and economic bubbles. We know what happened under the final days of the Bush administration. We experienced the collapse of a housing bubble that deregulation of the banking industry had permitted. Understandably, there are now a lot of people who want to return to the "bubble" days, when expectations of growth exceeded reality. It was not the deficit that caused the collapse of the housing bubble, but it is the deficit that fiscal conservatives want to fix as a cure-all solution to our problems.
I agree with that assessment, and I am more "socialistic" than you, in that respect. Government spending per se is not a good thing, although even bad spending policies can sometimes be better than no spending policies. For a flagging economy to turn itself around, we need to stimulate demand. Demand comes in the form of lots of people spending money for goods and services that lots of people produce. It does not come in the form of a few rich people hiring more servants and buying bigger, fancier yachts.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
We now live in an age wherein the basics are produced in large scale by only a few people.
Farming would be a good example of that.
Before my sainted grandfather died, he did ask...'why can't you find work?'
I explained...in his day a machine helped a worker do the job.
Nowadays the machine can replace the man, many times over.
Government can't fix that.
Corporate America is all in favor of it.
Foreign countries do likewise with even less restraint.
Increasing demand is all fine and good...and easy...increase the population.
No wait.
You would have to increase social programs.
And pay for them with fewer workers.
Farming would be a good example of that.
Before my sainted grandfather died, he did ask...'why can't you find work?'
I explained...in his day a machine helped a worker do the job.
Nowadays the machine can replace the man, many times over.
Government can't fix that.
Corporate America is all in favor of it.
Foreign countries do likewise with even less restraint.
Increasing demand is all fine and good...and easy...increase the population.
No wait.
You would have to increase social programs.
And pay for them with fewer workers.
Oh gosh, there are a number of problems hurting our economy. There is demographics - the baby boomer generation is growing older, spending less and receiving more in benefits. There was the housing bust, which was a government experiment of increasing home ownership. On the face of things seemed like a decent idea, more Americans owning homes. In retrospect, bubbles in housing and other items eventually burst causing economy havoc. No one expected that Americans in mass would walk away from their debts. Easy money policies do not help matters, as they can lead to bubbles. Another problem is many recent University graduates are deep in debt, unable to spend as past graduates where able to.
A leading issue holding our economy back is our older numerous regulations, and resent newer ones creating uncertainty - such as Obamacare, and Dodd Frank. As the President even mentioned when it came to the stimulus, shovel ready projects are no longer shovel ready.
Thought this a nice article explaining why the nearly trillion dollar stimulus failed to stimulate the economy much. If we hope to see the economy moving forward much again, I'm of the belief that less government and allowing more private sector innovation is key.
"Why Nothing Is Shovel Ready Anymore"
Why Nothing Is “Shovel Ready” Anymore | Via Meadia
sample from the article:
A leading issue holding our economy back is our older numerous regulations, and resent newer ones creating uncertainty - such as Obamacare, and Dodd Frank. As the President even mentioned when it came to the stimulus, shovel ready projects are no longer shovel ready.
Thought this a nice article explaining why the nearly trillion dollar stimulus failed to stimulate the economy much. If we hope to see the economy moving forward much again, I'm of the belief that less government and allowing more private sector innovation is key.
"Why Nothing Is Shovel Ready Anymore"
Why Nothing Is “Shovel Ready” Anymore | Via Meadia
sample from the article:
:biglaugh:
Alceste
Vagabond
Suffice it to say I completely disagree with the blogger's opinion. It may be the case that trying to balance our long term interests, for example by protecting forests and wetlands, and our short term interests, like creating jobs, can slow down certain types of projects. But the blogger does not acknowledge that requirements for environmental assessment also create jobs, and good ones! Scientists, engineers, regulators, etc. you rather have a job digging a hole or a job assessing the environmental impact of digging a hole? I know which I'd prefer.
In the depression, our make work projects for unemployed young men were ridiculous. Moving gravel from one side of the road to the other and back again. Nothing was accomplished by it, it was simply based on the Protestant ethos that "idle hands do the devil's work". Men lived in camps where they were fed and housed in tents in exchange for for completely pointless work for no wages. No regulations, sure, but a complete failure as a way to manage unemployment.
Surveying, engineering, environmental assessment, planning, public consultation, benefits and standards for labour, education to qualify for these positions - all these things create jobs, and those are MIDDLE CLASS jobs: exactly the kind we need more of to turn the economy around and generate more tax revenue. Digging holes willy nilly just won't do.
And really, does anybody actually want to live downstream from a dam that had not been subjected to any kind of regulation and assessment? Count me out!
Lets quit blaming each other and get back to work!
Giving loans to people with no money down proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
Not giving loans to people who never defaulted on previous loans proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
loosen credit to people with a down payment and folks will start saving so they can get a loan again. screw credit scores, got a grand down payment? You get a new car.
Got ten grand? you qualify for a home loan! Not a McMansion but a modest home.
Still got a business? Lets start with small loans and if you repay them you get bigger loans in the future.
Lets figure out what hiring folks will cost us instead of guessing what Obama Care will cost. No one knows!
Lets give tax cuts to job creators and tax the crap out of folks who don't hire!
Ship jobs over seas? Big tax increase! Hire folks? Big tax cut!
It's so simple, give qualified people loans again and watch the economy grow.
Or......... we could let the government have more stimulus money that costs us all 100,000 for ever 50,000 dollar job created.
Going green is a noble goal.........BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD EXPENSIVE ENERGY RIGHT NOW :sorry1:
DRILL BABY DRILL! PUT FOLKS BACK TO WORK! Lets get dirty and get the economy going. If you don't like coal.........QUIT USING ELECTRICITY!
WE CAN'T AFFORD HIGHER UTILITY BILLS RIGHT NOW DUHHHHH.
Once the economy gets going again, then we can afford to go green. Then we can afford higher taxes.
If we are going to have spend a trillion dollars every year over our budget perhaps we could build bridges and power grids instead of fighting wars everywhere.
Just saying, lets get to work and quit fighting over ideals.
People decide when the economy is better, not congress! When you get a job, buy a house and drive a new car you will think the economy is better.
When the bank forecloses your home loan, you can't find a job and have no car that runs, you might think the economy sucks and you would be right!
If your waiting for the President to fix things, you might be disappointed no matter who is elected.
In review:
More infrastructure
Easier loans for people with skin in the game
Drill baby drill
Higher taxes for the rich who do not create jobs
Lower taxes for people who do hire folks
Problem solved!
Giving loans to people with no money down proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
Not giving loans to people who never defaulted on previous loans proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
loosen credit to people with a down payment and folks will start saving so they can get a loan again. screw credit scores, got a grand down payment? You get a new car.
Got ten grand? you qualify for a home loan! Not a McMansion but a modest home.
Still got a business? Lets start with small loans and if you repay them you get bigger loans in the future.
Lets figure out what hiring folks will cost us instead of guessing what Obama Care will cost. No one knows!
Lets give tax cuts to job creators and tax the crap out of folks who don't hire!
Ship jobs over seas? Big tax increase! Hire folks? Big tax cut!
It's so simple, give qualified people loans again and watch the economy grow.
Or......... we could let the government have more stimulus money that costs us all 100,000 for ever 50,000 dollar job created.
Going green is a noble goal.........BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD EXPENSIVE ENERGY RIGHT NOW :sorry1:
DRILL BABY DRILL! PUT FOLKS BACK TO WORK! Lets get dirty and get the economy going. If you don't like coal.........QUIT USING ELECTRICITY!
WE CAN'T AFFORD HIGHER UTILITY BILLS RIGHT NOW DUHHHHH.
Once the economy gets going again, then we can afford to go green. Then we can afford higher taxes.
If we are going to have spend a trillion dollars every year over our budget perhaps we could build bridges and power grids instead of fighting wars everywhere.
Just saying, lets get to work and quit fighting over ideals.
People decide when the economy is better, not congress! When you get a job, buy a house and drive a new car you will think the economy is better.
When the bank forecloses your home loan, you can't find a job and have no car that runs, you might think the economy sucks and you would be right!
If your waiting for the President to fix things, you might be disappointed no matter who is elected.
In review:
More infrastructure
Easier loans for people with skin in the game
Drill baby drill
Higher taxes for the rich who do not create jobs
Lower taxes for people who do hire folks
Problem solved!
Alceste
Vagabond
Lets quit blaming each other and get back to work!
Giving loans to people with no money down proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
Not giving loans to people who never defaulted on previous loans proved to be a bad move with good intentions.
loosen credit to people with a down payment and folks will start saving so they can get a loan again. screw credit scores, got a grand down payment? You get a new car.
Got ten grand? you qualify for a home loan! Not a McMansion but a modest home.
Still got a business? Lets start with small loans and if you repay them you get bigger loans in the future.
Lets figure out what hiring folks will cost us instead of guessing what Obama Care will cost. No one knows!
Lets give tax cuts to job creators and tax the crap out of folks who don't hire!
Ship jobs over seas? Big tax increase! Hire folks? Big tax cut!
It's so simple, give qualified people loans again and watch the economy grow.
Or......... we could let the government have more stimulus money that costs us all 100,000 for ever 50,000 dollar job created.
Going green is a noble goal.........BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD EXPENSIVE ENERGY RIGHT NOW :sorry1:
DRILL BABY DRILL! PUT FOLKS BACK TO WORK! Lets get dirty and get the economy going. If you don't like coal.........QUIT USING ELECTRICITY!
WE CAN'T AFFORD HIGHER UTILITY BILLS RIGHT NOW DUHHHHH.
Once the economy gets going again, then we can afford to go green. Then we can afford higher taxes.
If we are going to have spend a trillion dollars every year over our budget perhaps we could build bridges and power grids instead of fighting wars everywhere.
Just saying, lets get to work and quit fighting over ideals.
People decide when the economy is better, not congress! When you get a job, buy a house and drive a new car you will think the economy is better.
When the bank forecloses your home loan, you can't find a job and have no car that runs, you might think the economy sucks and you would be right!
If your waiting for the President to fix things, you might be disappointed no matter who is elected.
In review:
More infrastructure
Easier loans for people with skin in the game
Drill baby drill
Higher taxes for the rich who do not create jobs
Lower taxes for people who do hire folks
Problem solved!
Rick, you should run for the Republican nomination next time. Your plans make a hell of a lot more sense than Romney's. Almost as much sense as Obama's!
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Rick, I did read the whole thing, but thought I'd cut the quote down to the tl/dr version for clarity.
I just can't get on board with this. Your arguments weren't without merit, but come on - let's at least TRY to find a solution that doesn't involve rendering the planet toxic to human life. I've got kids to think of, and so do you.
Even in this economy I choose to pay more to support clean energy. I don't look down my nose at those who can't, but prior conversations have made it abundantly clear that you are much more financially secure than I. It's about priorities.
"Stop using electricity" is irrational to the point of parody. Some people may not be able to afford going without coal power, but those of us who can owe it to future generations to support clean energy development, no?
ITA.
No comment due to ignorance (on my part).
AKA: Why Storm replied at all.
I just can't get on board with this. Your arguments weren't without merit, but come on - let's at least TRY to find a solution that doesn't involve rendering the planet toxic to human life. I've got kids to think of, and so do you.
Even in this economy I choose to pay more to support clean energy. I don't look down my nose at those who can't, but prior conversations have made it abundantly clear that you are much more financially secure than I. It's about priorities.
"Stop using electricity" is irrational to the point of parody. Some people may not be able to afford going without coal power, but those of us who can owe it to future generations to support clean energy development, no?
This idea is immensely appealing as an ideal, I'll grant you. However, I don't see the ideal translating into feasible legal codes. Do you?
Alceste
Vagabond
Rick, I did read the whole thing, but thought I'd cut the quote down to the tl/dr version for clarity.
ITA.
No comment due to ignorance (on my part).
AKA: Why Storm replied at all.
I just can't get on board with this. Your arguments weren't without merit, but come on - let's at least TRY to find a solution that doesn't involve rendering the planet toxic to human life. I've got kids to think of, and so do you.
Even in this economy I choose to pay more to support clean energy. I don't look down my nose at those who can't, but prior conversations have made it abundantly clear that you are much more financially secure than I. It's about priorities.
"Stop using electricity" is irrational to the point of parody. Some people may not be able to afford going without coal power, but those of us who can owe it to future generations to support clean energy development, no?
This idea is immensely appealing as an ideal, I'll grant you. However, I don't see the ideal translating into feasible legal codes. Do you?
Business tax credits based on the ratio of new hires to layoffs / attrition? That's probably the easiest way to do something like that.
I also disagreed strongly with the attitude that fossil fuels are the only solution. Germany seems to be SAVING money on their energy costs due to extensive micro-generation investment. In fact, you can even make money there by feeding more into the grid than you use.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
*facepalms self* Yeah, that took a lot of effort and economic expertise to come up with, didn't it?
At any rate, it's an idea I'd get behind. Especially if it was doubled with penalties shipping jobs overseas.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Romney thinks the private sector can do it all where Obama thinks the government can do it all. Their both wrong.Rick, you should run for the Republican nomination next time. Your plans make a hell of a lot more sense than Romney's. Almost as much sense as Obama's!
Coal is a big thing in my region but I understand the past with acid rain. Clean coal and cleaner coal in the future should be explored not scrapped. I don't want to live in a cesspool either but we need to progress to green technology not abandon old technology until we have an online replacement we can afford.
What about nuclear energy? Risks, yes but also rewards as well. The power grid and other infrastructure should be a no brainer. Yes, we are leaving our kids debt but at least they will have something to show for it. If we don't quit running a 21st century country on 20th century infrastructure we all will be sank.
Money spent on wars is gone, money spent on infrastructure will still be here and worth the expense.
Can you imagine me getting on a high speed rail, going to bed and waking up in your neighborhood to catch a concert together? We could party all day and you could ship me home. When I got home I would be fed and rested and ready to go to work.
Jet planes are so wasteful. So are Semi Trucks.
I want to use less energy, not reinvent the wheel right away. Yes, we should do it, but it needs to be affordable. I want my children and grand children to breath clean air but I want them to have a buck in their pocket too, make sense?
Alceste
Vagabond
Ha, yeah, I will be the first to admit I have no idea what I'm taking about, but I do find it astonishing that even in an internet discussion forum, we (including some of the RF republicans) seem to be able to come up with better ideas than the Republicans have managed to devise. Must come from an intuitive recognition that when we refer to "job creators", we ought to mean "entities that actually create domestic jobs" rather than "rich people".
Alceste
Vagabond
Yup, makes sense.
For energy, though, I think much would be accomplished if the sustainable energy sector received incentives and tax credits equal to those given to big oil. The last president to do that was Carter, I think, and it resulted in an explosion of green tech R&D jobs, and accelerated public acceptance and awareness of these alternatives.Personally, I prefer micro-generation, geothermal, solar, solar thermal, wind and hydro, combined with reducing demand by increasing the energy efficiency of our homes and cars. I don't think the fossil fuel sector needs incentives any more. They will "drill baby drill" without any encouragement from us, because there is still money to be made. Lots of it! They're doing remarkably well, in fact, which makes it hard for me to justify them receiving incentives, paid for by me, or expanded access to ecologically sensitive areas that may negatively impact other industries (such as tourism or fisheries).
Of course I also see global warming as a VERY pressing problem, so to me there is no excuse for society remaining economically dependent on big oil.
It sure would be wonderful if our railways and other public transport systems were anywhere near as efficient and effective as European railways. Infrastructure investment is a classic way to create jobs in a sluggish economy.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Now that we are discussing solutions....allow me to reiterate...
An economics professor has done a speech of recent date.
Richard Wolff.
He reports how we got here.
You might be surprised.
He reports what other countries are doing.
He strongly suggests what we should do.
It's not a speech Americans want to hear.
But if we don't change our ways...such things will happen....again.
It's definitely NOT what the politicians will do.
Roosevelt did so before.
Will this notation spike your interest?
100% tax over any amount of 25,000.
(In today's money 350,000 dollars.)
An economics professor has done a speech of recent date.
Richard Wolff.
He reports how we got here.
You might be surprised.
He reports what other countries are doing.
He strongly suggests what we should do.
It's not a speech Americans want to hear.
But if we don't change our ways...such things will happen....again.
It's definitely NOT what the politicians will do.
Roosevelt did so before.
Will this notation spike your interest?
100% tax over any amount of 25,000.
(In today's money 350,000 dollars.)
Thats great money in my area, but not so in LA or NYC. :no:
People always think about this as income to live on. Not much money to invest in a business and create jobs.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Thats great money in my area, but not so in LA or NYC. :no:
People always think about this as income to live on. Not much money to invest in a business and create jobs.
The speech I refer to has examples of other tactics.
In Italy... they are attempting to change at the grass roots level.
They have two year unemployment benefits.
If you can convince several others to do likewise...
The government will hand over ALL of the benefit to you and your partners...
in the hope you can pool the sum and start a business.
Haven't heard yet how well that works.
Perhaps it will take a few years for that to gel.
In this country, if you hand big business such money, it turns into bonus for the higher ups.