Who's more to blame for the economy? Obama or Congress

[Storm]

I go by what people tell me their bills are. Being an electrician, I discuss power bills quite alot. The 300 year coal supply is easily verifiable.

The 400-600 amount is the biggest winter bill number. I have my heating and air turned off this time a year. I had all my windows open today and have just one open now and the temp is 74 in my house and it is cool outside now. My electric will be less than 100 dollars this month. In Kentucky the low temp can be below zero in winter and as high as 107 in summer.

Yeah, same here.

FTR, I wasn't challenging your numbers, so much as making the observation that you most likely didn't see a need to have 3 citations handy. No worries.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

We now live in an age wherein the basics are produced in large scale by only a few people.
Farming would be a good example of that.

Before my sainted grandfather died, he did ask...'why can't you find work?'
I explained...in his day a machine helped a worker do the job.
Nowadays the machine can replace the man, many times over.

Government can't fix that.
Corporate America is all in favor of it.

Foreign countries do likewise with even less restraint.

Increasing demand is all fine and good...and easy...increase the population.
No wait.
You would have to increase social programs.
And pay for them with fewer workers.

Another issues is adaptation. For many they once nestled themselves into a career or cushy job off of the education or skills they had. Now many of them find themselves out of work and are trying to get that job that will help them sustain their family/lifestyle at the salary they once had without any re-education in today's tough and competitive economy. Unfortunately that really doesn't work. You must adapt. I'm an IT Professional and I'm constantly taking classes and even self paced study and education to keep up and to assure that I stay marketable. Being in the education field I hear this a lot from business leaders in the community.....that they have jobs and are willing to hire but the candidates usually aren't qualified enough.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Romney thinks the private sector can do it all where Obama thinks the government can do it all. Their both wrong.

No he (Obama) doesn't..!

Challenge can be met, Obama says : Stltoday
"government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem"

“We don’t think government can solve all our problems, but we don’t think government is the source of all our problems.”

 

[Reverend Rick]

No he (Obama) doesn't..!

Challenge can be met, Obama says : Stltoday
"government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem"

“We don’t think government can solve all our problems, but we don’t think government is the source of all our problems.”

Not all our problems, but the biggest problem. If you ran a business, you would understand.

I am a contractor and I am bidding jobs, I know exactly what I will be paying for my material to the penny next year. I have no idea what my labor prices will be in the future.

I would be happy if someone would be able to assure me that my current health care program meets all the requirements in the future or if I may have to change or upgrade my insurance and what the costs will be.

People are not hiring because the future is uncertain.

 

[Thief]

Not all our problems, but the biggest problem. If you ran a business, you would understand.

I am a contractor and I am bidding jobs, I know exactly what I will be paying for my material to the penny next year. I have no idea what my labor prices will be in the future.

I would be happy if someone would be able to assure me that my current health care program meets all the requirements in the future or if I may have to change or upgrade my insurance and what the costs will be.

People are not hiring because the future is uncertain.

There it is.....fear.

And if the future was certain you wouldn't have to think about and worry.
Just sit back and let the money roll in.

No one is sure of tomorrow.
But what I am sure of has this immediate result.

I will leave my family in two days for the sake of better employment.

Having taken heed from economic advisers and professors....
I see this to be needful.

My most recent employer did not provide insurance sufficient.
Low...very low... pay scale.
No contribution to retirement plans.
No other benefits.
and he is obviously running the money into his pocket and allowing the business to roll down hill.
He is apathetic.
Everyone there wants out.
The workers can see the future...with certainty.

He is trying to hire....but can't find skilled replacements.

Skilled labor such as myself is willing to do as I do.
Move on.

In this small city the population has gone from 43,000 to 33,000.
The employers are collaborating.
'Don't hire my guy..I won't hire yours.
Don't pay more per hour and I won't either.'
I've known one coworker who hasn't had a raise in ten years!
After we spoke...so did he....he got a quarter more on the hour!

I will not be a burden to myself or my family.
And if I need to live elsewhere....I will do so.

btw...communist countries fix the labor market a described above.

In recent weeks I've heard of revolt.
An entire province failed to show for work.
The companies there caved in...a 33% increase for all.

Are somethings certain?...yeah.

 

[esmith]

We live in a "double-wide" manufactured home with around 1400 sqft. It was built in 2006 and is all electric since the only other option is propane. We live on an acre of land 10 miles out of town in a mostly agricultural area.
Summer rates are:
0-800kw is $.078428 kWh
801-2000kWh is $.095788 per kWh
Winter rates are:
0-800kw is .068294 per kWh
801-2000kw is $.075884 per kWh
over 2001 is $.084662 per kWh

Our winter bill averages around $200+
Our summer bill averages around $120+
Our max average summer temp is 90F and min winter 22F

During the day we keep the house at about 70 deg F in the winter and around 75 in the summer. So not sure how people are getting the $600 energy charges unless they are living in a extremely high energy and extreme temperature area.

 

[Storm]

We live in a "double-wide" manufactured home with around 1400 sqft. It was built in 2006 and is all electric since the only other option is propane. We live on an acre of land 10 miles out of town in a mostly agricultural area.
Summer rates are:
0-800kw is $.078428 kWh
801-2000kWh is $.095788 per kWh
Winter rates are:
0-800kw is .068294 per kWh
801-2000kw is $.075884 per kWh
over 2001 is $.084662 per kWh

Our winter bill averages around $200+
Our summer bill averages around $120+
Our max average summer temp is 90F and min winter 22F

During the day we keep the house at about 70 deg F in the winter and around 75 in the summer. So not sure how people are getting the $600 energy charges unless they are living in a extremely high energy and extreme temperature area.

Extreme climates are not rare in the US. Electricity rates vary by region and company. Many mobile homes are older and/ or shoddily constructed.

In short, the variables are too drastic to provide a meaningful average for the nation, which I remind you takes up roughly a third of a CONTINENT.

Also, why is nit picking over the cost of electricity in mobile homes of importance to anyone here? Is it remotely relevant to the question of relevant economic responsibility in our leadership? I really think not.

 

[Copernicus]

Not all our problems, but the biggest problem. If you ran a business, you would understand.

I am a contractor and I am bidding jobs, I know exactly what I will be paying for my material to the penny next year. I have no idea what my labor prices will be in the future.

I would be happy if someone would be able to assure me that my current health care program meets all the requirements in the future or if I may have to change or upgrade my insurance and what the costs will be.

People are not hiring because the future is uncertain.

It is true that the rising cost of health care makes it very difficult to predict what your costs will be, but the fact is that many businesses have been hiring. Most of our jobs problem seems to derive from loss of jobs in the public sector--school teachers, government bureaucrats, police, firemen, etc. What drives a business to expand is the calculation that there is a growing demand for its goods or services. Demand has been rising, so the private sector has been hiring more.

If our system of health care delivery did not place the burden on employers, then American businesses would not have to worry about health care costs. It would be just like it is in other developed countries. Then elected officials would have that headache instead of businesses. I don't like Obama's health care plan, because it still places the biggest burden for health care delivery on private businesses. I agree with you that that is a negative factor for business growth, but that factor is not really stopping job growth. Shrinking local government budgets and a hamstrung federal government are bigger factors.

 

[Thief]

It is true that the rising cost of health care makes it very difficult to predict what your costs will be, but the fact is that many businesses have been hiring. Most of our jobs problem seems to derive from loss of jobs in the public sector--school teachers, government bureaucrats, police, firemen, etc. What drives a business to expand is the calculation that there is a growing demand for its goods or services. Demand has been rising, so the private sector has been hiring more.

If our system of health care delivery did not place the burden on employers, then American businesses would not have to worry about health care costs. It would be just like it is in other developed countries. Then elected officials would have that headache instead of businesses. I don't like Obama's health care plan, because it still places the biggest burden for health care delivery on private businesses. I agree with you that that is a negative factor for business growth, but that factor is not really stopping job growth. Shrinking local government budgets and a hamstrung federal government are bigger factors.

I think you're confusing burden with monetary ability.

The government had the plan in the days of Roosevelt.
That's how social security and unemployment benefits got started.
The gradual reduction of that technique brings us to where we are now.

Coupled with technology that replaces the worker you get the corporate mantra....
'Do more with less'.
That makes more unemployment.

Demand for product? in a time of mass production?
We are quite capable of producing all of our needs...with fewer workers.

Saw it in a comic book when I was a boy...decades ago...
A society of overweight do nothing people....
living on the work of a few that maintain the machines....
(that volume did not mention population control)

Now where do you think we are headed?...really.

 

[Wirey]

I think you're confusing burden with monetary ability.

The government had the plan in the days of Roosevelt.
That's how social security and unemployment benefits got started.
The gradual reduction of that technique brings us to where we are now.

Coupled with technology that replaces the worker you get the corporate mantra....
'Do more with less'.
That makes more unemployment.

Demand for product? in a time of mass production?
We are quite capable of producing all of our needs...with fewer workers.

Saw it in a comic book when I was a boy...decades ago...
A society of overweight do nothing people....
living on the work of a few that maintain the machines....
(that volume did not mention population control)

Now where do you think we are headed?...really.

Technologically deficient thinking. When the steam engine first showed up, everyone started screaming it would end the farmer, and replace the factory worker, and instead it fuelled the greatest technological and economic boom the world has seen, the real beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And new technology is doing the same for us. Advances is computer science have allowed us to perform tasks that were mere pipe dreams in the 1960s and 1970s. Look at SAGD technology, and remember it's employing, directly of indirectly, about 400,000 people in North America.

And I'd like to point out that instead of history, your source is a comic book. I saw the same thing in the children's cartoon WALL - E.

 

[Revoltingest]

Technologically deficient thinking. When the steam engine first showed up, everyone started screaming it would end the farmer, and replace the factory worker, and instead it fuelled the greatest technological and economic boom the world has seen, the real beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And new technology is doing the same for us. Advances is computer science have allowed us to perform tasks that were mere pipe dreams in the 1960s and 1970s. Look at SAGD technology, and remember it's employing, directly of indirectly, about 400,000 people in North America.

And I'd like to point out that instead of history, your source is a comic book. I saw the same thing in the children's cartoon WALL - E.

We might be part of a sea change, wherein people who could've been productive in times past, are now supplanted by machines.
(Even as we speak, home care bots are in development.) When technology becomes sophisticated & inexpensive enuf, we will see
a growing population of would-be workers who can perform no function for less than the cost of a machine.

I envision a future in which even robots will take over the role of being lazy for us. Perhaps humans can find work serving them, eh?
[youtube]XpugML3CsSQ[/youtube]
Hedonism Bot - YouTube

 

[Reverend Rick]

We live in a "double-wide" manufactured home with around 1400 sqft. It was built in 2006 and is all electric since the only other option is propane. We live on an acre of land 10 miles out of town in a mostly agricultural area.
Summer rates are:
0-800kw is $.078428 kWh
801-2000kWh is $.095788 per kWh
Winter rates are:
0-800kw is .068294 per kWh
801-2000kw is $.075884 per kWh
over 2001 is $.084662 per kWh

Our winter bill averages around $200+
Our summer bill averages around $120+
Our max average summer temp is 90F and min winter 22F

During the day we keep the house at about 70 deg F in the winter and around 75 in the summer. So not sure how people are getting the $600 energy charges unless they are living in a extremely high energy and extreme temperature area.

Mr. Smith your rate for kilowatt hour is quite good. Surely you don't believe everyone in the country has your rate do you?

OK, lets get back to the meat and potatoes of my argument, what does anyone think wind and solar costs are per kilowatt? The sun does not shine all day nor does the wind blow continuously but our energy consumption does.

We would have to burn natural gas or go nuclear to replace coal. Do you have any idea what your rate per kilowatt would be if we went green?

 

[Thief]

Technologically deficient thinking. When the steam engine first showed up, everyone started screaming it would end the farmer, and replace the factory worker, and instead it fuelled the greatest technological and economic boom the world has seen, the real beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And new technology is doing the same for us. Advances is computer science have allowed us to perform tasks that were mere pipe dreams in the 1960s and 1970s. Look at SAGD technology, and remember it's employing, directly of indirectly, about 400,000 people in North America.

And I'd like to point out that instead of history, your source is a comic book. I saw the same thing in the children's cartoon WALL - E.

Science fiction in it's many forms can be MOST prophetic.
Don't assume the people that write such material lack a greater intellect.

And when Roosevelt took office....what was going on?

You happen to be talking to an ex union steward who saw his job...and the machinery... sold to Mexico.

Work history is littered with down sizing, lower wages and job loss.

Perhaps you are unaware...
To maintian our current affairs...'as is'...hundreds of thousands of jobs must be 'created' each month.

Perhaps you don't know....
HALF of America is not working (American Census Bureau and Lester Thurow)
Half of America is either too old or too young to participate.

Social security will go belly up in 2015.
Saw three guys in charge of it....stand behind a podium and fess up to it.
When it began 16 people paid in....one took out.
Now 2 people pay in...one takes out.

Technical and economic upgrades doesn't mean your life style...or your life...has been secured.

 

[Wirey]

Mr. Smith your rate for kilowatt hour is quite good. Surely you don't believe everyone in the country has your rate do you?

OK, lets get back to the meat and potatoes of my argument, what does anyone think wind and solar costs are per kilowatt? The sun does not shine all day nor does the wind blow continuously but our energy consumption does.

We would have to burn natural gas or go nuclear to replace coal. Do you have any idea what your rate per kilowatt would be if we went green?

Not to be a buttinski, but new technologies in solar are developing almost daily. The acres and acres required to generate meaningful power are a thing of the past. A couple of California companies are developing a gel-based solar cell that looks interesting. The surface are of the roof of most homes would power the home. The technology is new, but it works.

Organic solar cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus, older but proven technologies that rely on solar power, like a solar furnace:

Solar furnace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can greatly reduce costs. My dad installed two solar furnaces on his house that he built himself from some plywood, styrofoam, tinfoil, pop cans, and black paint, and reduced his heating bill by about 40% last winter. He also has a small wind turbine that powers a UPS in his shed. It powers the shed, and in the event of a blackout, can maintain the hotel load in his home for about two or three days. Of course, he and I are both pretty good with the electrical thing.

Pretty soon we will have to move away from fossil fuels, and remember, I work in the oil business. Technologies like solar, and nuclear power, may be the only way to go. I actually think wind power might be a wash. Far too many problems with acceptance by the NIMBY crowd.

 

[Wirey]

Science fiction in it's many forms can be MOST prophetic.

You happen to be talking to an ex union steward who saw his job...and the machinery... sold to Mexico.

Work history is littered with down sizing, lower wages and job loss.

You're not talking about history, you're talking about you. The machinery and jobs are still there, they're just in Mexico. And science fiction may occasionally be prophetic, but history is always right. It keeps happening. Technological advances benefit mankind as a whole. Sometimes there are people who must adapt, like a sailboat maker once steamships appeared, but that one guy losing his job is replaced by 50 building steamships. Mankind as a whole benefits, even though some people do suffer.

Oh, as to the Roosevelt thing: rampant speculation brought on by unregulated trading. That's what was going on. American innovation and drive was unaffected by the Depression. Within 15 years of it's beginning, technology had advanced into the Atomic Age.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, a UPS will maintain a steady load to get you through the night till the sun shines again but as you know, you have to match the size of the UPS to the load and then there is the duration factor.

Most UPS systems I see take care of power grid interruptions and give us time to properly shut down computers. These systems are good for several hours. If your system will run for days it must be massive or the load must be minimal.

I'm thinking most folks want to do laundry day or night 24-7 and the there is heating requirements on cold winter nights and non-sunny days.

I agree that advances in technology makes the challenge possible but right back to my basic point, the latest technology is expensive where coal is cheap and simple.

People who are struggling to keep their electric on now with cheap and abundant coal will not be buying solar panels and UPS systems any time soon.

You and I are on the same page however reducing consumption which is key I believe to going green.

Most people however are wasteful and want everything 24-7 which will cost them a small fortune to live the lifestyle they are accustom to.

 

[Wirey]

Yes, a UPS will maintain a steady load to get you through the night till the sun shines again but as you know, you have to match the size of the UPS to the load and then there is the duration factor.

Most UPS systems I see take care of power grid interruptions and give us time to properly shut down computers. These systems are good for several hours. If your system will run for days it must be massive or the load must be minimal.

I'm thinking most folks want to do laundry day or night 24-7 and the there is heating requirements on cold winter nights and non-sunny days.

I agree that advances in technology makes the challenge possible but right back to my basic point, the latest technology is expensive where coal is cheap and simple.

People who are struggling to keep their electric on now with cheap and abundant coal will not be buying solar panels and UPS systems any time soon.

You and I are on the same page however reducing consumption which is key I believe to going green.

Most people however are wasteful and want everything 24-7 which will cost them a small fortune to live the lifestyle they are accustom to.

Yes, he performs load shedding if the UPS kicks in. "Hotel load" is an old military term for the things that must be on. If he ran his dryer twice he'd probably only get a day. But coal has, eventually, got to go. It's just too dirty. There was talk of building a nuke in Northern Alberta, but the whole Japanese thing stopped that talk. I do think that eventually, it's the way we'll have to go.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We agree Wirey, nuclear would solve everything, but I still believe in advancements in clean coal technology as well.

You and I could most likey go off grid, but most folks are not willing to live that lifestyle.

 

[Revoltingest]

I could go off the grid too.
But I'd rather stay married.

 

[Wirey]

We agree Wirey, nuclear would solve everything, but I still believe in advancements in clean coal technology as well.

You and I could most likey go off grid, but most folks are not willing to live that lifestyle.

The Hell I could! I'm far too accustomed to my electric underwear!

Seriously, though, our society as it is now needs power for everything. Clean coal is better (I've had occasion to work on precipitators myself), but I think a combination of solar and nuclear is probably going to have to occur. And that requires advancements in technology. And that requires government assistance. And that means money has to be gathered in the form of taxes. And that probably means it will never happen. The bulk of the population is too short sighted to see what's good five years from now may hurt a little now.

So I propose the following: All tradesmen, except electricians, are to be taxed at 75%. Plumbers won't even notice. That money is used to improve solar power technology, and to design even better nuke plants. Revoltistan is now our used fuel rod dumping ground. Emma Stone and I get a romantic weekend together (as long as I'm dreaming, might as well go big).