Who To Blame For American Islamophobia?

[darkendless]

Well considering the countries are being occupied and hundreds of thousands of people are being killed each year, then there'd be good reason to have blind hatred wouldn't there? As opposed to a single act 9 years ago. Even with that in mind, I don't have blind hatred, nor do I think most Muslims do either. We have opposition, dislike etc. for the specific actions, but not just blind hate for the people themselves. I must admit I do feel disappointed in my fellow Australians for being so gullible in regards to it all, but certainly not blind hate. As I am myself an Australian and a Muslim, it'd be kind of hard to hate either, wouldn't it?

So the west are allowed to blindly hate your people for bombings and the such that kill innocent people? Support for these occupations is tiny, you should know. I hate our government for sending our troops to get shot at for nothing. Grief is being caused over a country that clearly would rather not be helped.

Should Australia hate Indonesia for the Bali Bombings?

I commend you for seeing yourself as Australian. Its often very rare to see in my experience. Generally muslims consider themselves and muslims and not Australians which i see as strange. I could be wrong, its just from my experience that most muslims i've met can't stand Australia as strange as it sounds.

I am, but I'm also a Muslim, so in this case I'm speaking specifically about Muslim Australian's kids. This is merely due to the fact it isn't happening to Christian Australian's kids or Buddhist Australian's kids etc.

Australia has Islamaphobia. Something one of my former teacher said that hit a nerve was "why do muslims need their own schools? Are they trying to segregate themselves? Are our schools not good enough?"

Not enough is done by both sides to integrate Islam into Australia. Then again, buddhists and christians aren't as recognisable as muslim kids with regards to dress such as a hijab.

 

[McBell]

Mestemia,

Most other Muslims don't believe this though.

Never claimed they did.
Nor was I talking or referring to them.

Seems to me that I specifically said: "You really need to tell all the Muslims who believe it does that it does not. "

Perhaps that was not specific enough for you?

That's just your skewed view of them, due to media beat-up and hype.

Really?
And you know this how?
Of course, how would you know that my daughter attends a Mosque?
Did you ask?

You know absolutely NOTHING about what I do and do not know about Islam, Muslims, or the fanatics and extremists of such.

Stop making yourself look stupid with your assumptions.

Even those Muslims who are fighting against the West, are mostly doing so in their OWN countries that the West has invaded. They are the defensive ones, and the West are the offensive ones who are fighting people everywhere to dominate them and their natural resources.

Yes, because everyone knows that killing innocent civilians and children is always done in self defense by the radical Muslims, the fanatical Muslims and the extremist Muslims.

You do nothing but the same old bull **** as all the rest.
You jump on me making assumptions towards my knowledge then start spouting out the stereotype age old bull **** "it is all in defense" argument.

You need to go back to your Muslim school and tell them to get some new material.
Cause all you are doing is regurgitating the same old worn out bull **** lines.

Defense my big fat white hair covered pimply arse.

If anyone here needs to be convincing their people that war-mongering is not good, it'd be you.

Your so full of stereotypical bull **** your eyes should be brown.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

FTR, I am not Islamophobic. I think Islam is a beautiful tradition in political crisis, but that's a topic for another thread.

That said, I can't deny that collectively, Americans ARE Islamophobic.

Some would say it's because the media feeds it. I say that's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is 9-11.

Before the attacks, Americans (again, I'm speaking collectively) didn't care about the Middle East. They didn't care about Islam, and they didn't care about Osama bin Laden. Should we have cared? I think so. But we didn't.

I suspect few will argue that Americans are self-centered. If it doesn't affect us directly, it doesn't concern us at all.

Also, we were wrapped in comforting delusions. No one could effectively attack us. We're the greatest country in the world, the sole superpower. King of the hill. It was foolish, yes. Arrogant, yes. I'm not defending it.

Then came the September attacks. Not only did they hurt us, they shattered our illusions. We were frightened, we were angry. And surprise, surprise, one of the most warlike nations in the world hit back. Blindly.

Al Quaeda got their wish: we're scared. Traumatized, even. You can whine about media hype all you want, it wasn't there before we got blindsided.

Congratualtions, you've got our attention now.

So, if you want to blame someone for current American attitudes towards Muslims, blame the people who sucker punched the most dangerous country in the world.

Exactly. Well said. So many people on this forum keep harping about the "war" the West has launched against Islam. But nobody in the U.S. even thought about Islam before 9-11.

The fact is, the U.S. has invaded two countries since 9-11: Iraq and Afghanistan. The invasion of these countries may have been ill-conceived, immoral, and illegal by international law. Those are plausible arguments. But the one thing they were not, is an attack on "Islam". They were attacks on Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein's Baath party. And it was in direct response to the 9-11 attacks, Saddam of course had nothing to do with 9-11, but my point is the only reason Iraq was invaded was because Americans believed there was a connection to 9-11 and the Bush administration believed there was a connection with Al Qaeda, and the Bush administration, partly out of a guilty conscience i.m.o., adopted the misguided view of "preemptive strike" to prevent a future 9-11.

But again, not an attack on Islam. Saudi Arabia is a U.S. ally. So is Turkey and Indonesia. Iraq and Afghanistan have constitutions which explicitly say those are Islamic countries. Guess what religion the Kurds belong to? What about the Afghan Northern Alliance that was fighting the Taliban at the time of the U.S. invasion? Also Muslim. There are even Muslim-Americans in the U.S. military.

You can accuse the U.S. of carrying out ill-conceived policy, you can even accuse Americans of overreacting, being Islamophobic, etc. But Americans are not inherently Islamophobic, like we just have something against Islam. Americans were shocked into it by 9-11. And that was not even the only terrorist attack, Al Qaeda attacked the WTC in the early '90s, there were embassy bombings, there was the DC sniper right after 9-11, there were the London bombings and the Madrid train bombing, too.

When was the last Hindu terrorist attack on the U.S.? If there was one, maybe we would all start thinking about Hindus and Hinduism.

 

[Abu Rashid]

So the west are allowed to blindly hate your people for bombings and the such that kill innocent people?

I guess the difference I'm trying to highlight is that 9/11 or the Bali bombings were single incidents, and I'd describe them as desperate (not that it makes it acceptable) acts of revenge against superpowers that just go around the world committing atrocities all over the place against largely defenseless people.

Also keep in mind I didn't say Muslims blindly hating all Westerners for that is right. And in fact you'll find the vast majority of Muslims do not, even many of those who've lost large parts of their family to such atrocities.

Support for these occupations is tiny, you should know. I hate our government for sending our troops to get shot at for nothing. Grief is being caused over a country that clearly would rather not be helped.

Public opinion on this goes up and down. When fear is pumped into the people they overwhelmingly support it, when it calms down they don't. I commend you for not supporting it, but unfortunately I think these decisions are made without the consent of the general public anyway. As Chomsky puts it, it seems they "manufacture consent" for these things when it's necessary.

Should Australia hate Indonesia for the Bali Bombings?

My whole point was nobody should blindly hate masses of people based on the actions of a few. Also keep in mind the Indonesian government did not commit that act, unlike the Australian and American and British etc. governments who do commit those acts in the Muslim world.

I commend you for seeing yourself as Australian.

Well I've been an Aussie a lot longer than I've been a Muslim, and becoming a Muslim would not stop me belonging to my homeland. So it's not really that commendable.

Its often very rare to see in my experience.

Is it really? Do you actually know many Muslims personally? I mean proper practicing Muslims?

Generally muslims consider themselves and muslims and not Australians which i see as strange. I could be wrong, its just from my experience that most muslims i've met can't stand Australia as strange as it sounds.

Well I think this misunderstanding comes about because as Muslims we do consider ourselves Muslims first, and then Australians, or Egyptians, or Pakistanis or Lebanese or whatever second. This is because we believe God takes precedence over all worldly things. Now that's not everyone, I'm sure there's some who put their country first, but that is not according to Islamic beliefs.

Australia has Islamaphobia. Something one of my former teacher said that hit a nerve was "why do muslims need their own schools? Are they trying to segregate themselves? Are our schools not good enough?

I think the question that needs to be asked, is why are only Muslims asked why we have our own schools? Why aren't Catholics (the largest amount of private faith-based schools in Australia are Catholic) asked this? Why aren't Protestants asked this? Why aren't Orthodox asked this? Why aren't Jews? Why aren't any of the other faiths who have their own faith-based schools questioned in this manner? Why only Muslims?

It seems it's quite acceptable to question Muslims in this manner, yet questioning anyone else in this way isn't even considered necessary. It's like the Shari'ah in the U.K hysteria that's been all over the media recently. Jews in the U.K have had their own Faith-based courts now for about 80 years, yet not a single question is raised about it. Not a single protest or media article about why Jews have their own civil courts in the U.K. Yet if Muslims even raise the idea, we are bombarded with all this media hysteria about how Muslims are trying to take over the U.K. It's extremely hypocritical, as is the school issue. Also Islam established faith-based civil courts for Jews & Christians well over 1400 years ago now.

Not enough is done by both sides to integrate Islam into Australia.

I find this idea quite strange. Growing up as an average Aussie I was always taught that individualism and freedom of expression etc. were a strong part of Australian culture. Now all of a sudden since I became a Muslim, I start hearing that no I have to integrate and "conform" to Australian society. I find this rather bizarre and again very hypocritical.

Do you "integrate" into Australia?

Then again, buddhists and christians aren't as recognisable as muslim kids with regards to dress such as a hijab.

There's plenty of other cultures who are very recognisable, by dress and other means. Plenty of Indians wear saris and other cultural dress, as do Buddhist monks and some Christian groups even. Again, Islam receives an inordinate amount of attention in this regard. It's pure hype.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

perhabs you did not care but your government always did and still does.

The U.S. government cares about Islam? Come on. Some U.S. allies are Muslim. Some U.S. enemies are Muslim. Lots of U.S. citizens are Muslim. Islam is your religion so of course it's very important to you. But I really don't think there's any evidence the U.S. government cares about what religion people practice, the govt. cares about things like trade, oil, alliances, taxes, security, etc.

i was scared too. almost all of my friends were in NewYork that time and some of them saw what happened. i did not even hear name AlQueda once before it, still not sure who they are and i certainly don't know who's behind that incident.

Al Jazeera aired a tape from Bin Laden in which he basically confessed to being the mastermind. (Read an English translation here: 'God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers' | World news | The Guardian ) He has been involved in many terrorist attacks, including the first bombing of the World Trade Center in the early 1990's. And we know the hijackers were Islamic extremists, they were even shouting "Allah is great" on the flight recorder.

 

[darkendless]

I guess the difference I'm trying to highlight is that 9/11 or the Bali bombings were single incidents, and I'd describe them as desperate (not that it makes it acceptable) acts of revenge against superpowers that just go around the world committing atrocities all over the place against largely defenseless people.

Also keep in mind I didn't say Muslims blindly hating all Westerners for that is right. And in fact you'll find the vast majority of Muslims do not, even many of those who've lost large parts of their family to such atrocities.

I don't agree that a war we're involved in is full of atrocities.

However, to prevent comments such as that, the west should have left Iraq and Afghanistan to rot a long time ago.

Public opinion on this goes up and down. When fear is pumped into the people they overwhelmingly support it, when it calms down they don't. I commend you for not supporting it, but unfortunately I think these decisions are made without the consent of the general public anyway. As Chomsky puts it, it seems they "manufacture consent" for these things when it's necessary.

Proving our loyalty to the trigger happy yanks is a pathetic reason to put our soldiers in harms way. As for fear of terrorism, we're not a juicy enough target.

My whole point was nobody should blindly hate masses of people based on the actions of a few. Also keep in mind the Indonesian government did not commit that act, unlike the Australian and American and British etc. governments who do commit those acts in the Muslim world.

What do the Australians commit? Our Brisbane battalion guards reconstruction efforts just outside the capital.

Well I've been an Aussie a lot longer than I've been a Muslim, and becoming a Muslim would not stop me belonging to my homeland. So it's not really that commendable.

I don't like how much Australia and not just the government are made to look like pigs for supporting our soldiers in the middle east. I support the soldiers, not the reason they're there. If it were up to me, next time i saw i saw an idiot at griffith university telling me that our soldiers kill children and innocent people i'd castrate the person.

Is it really? Do you actually know many Muslims personally? I mean proper practicing Muslims?

One is tutoring me in structural analysis over msn right now lol.

All of them i know are great people until we speak about Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. I hate that its a default position to have a crack at the west.

Well I think this misunderstanding comes about because as Muslims we do consider ourselves Muslims first, and then Australians, or Egyptians, or Pakistanis or Lebanese or whatever second. This is because we believe God takes precedence over all worldly things. Now that's not everyone, I'm sure there's some who put their country first, but that is not according to Islamic beliefs.

I never knew that. It makes a lot of sense.

I think the question that needs to be asked, is why are only Muslims asked why we have our own schools? Why aren't Catholics (the largest amount of private faith-based schools in Australia are Catholic) asked this? Why aren't Protestants asked this? Why aren't Orthodox asked this? Why aren't Jews? Why aren't any of the other faiths who have their own faith-based schools questioned in this manner? Why only Muslims?

I wish there were no schools dedicated to religion. The reason for muslims being targeted is because in South-east Queensland they're the only ones wanting to build schools. In Cararra (suburb on the Gold Coast where our AFL team will play next year) one got rejected because it was "against the best interests of the locals."

It seems it's quite acceptable to question Muslims in this manner, yet questioning anyone else in this way isn't even considered necessary. It's like the Shari'ah in the U.K hysteria that's been all over the media recently. Jews in the U.K have had their own Faith-based courts now for about 80 years, yet not a single question is raised about it. Not a single protest or media article about why Jews have their own civil courts in the U.K. Yet if Muslims even raise the idea, we are bombarded with all this media hysteria about how Muslims are trying to take over the U.K. It's extremely hypocritical, as is the school issue. Also Islam established faith-based civil courts for Jews & Christians well over 1400 years ago now.

A lot of people would argue that we do not recieve the same benefits Islam is asking for here in Muslim countries. Why would we want mosques in Australia when we can't freely practice in muslim countries? Doesn't seem fair.

Personally i don't givef a damn. I'd prefer freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion.

I find this idea quite strange. Growing up as an average Aussie I was always taught that individualism and freedom of expression etc. were a strong part of Australian culture. Now all of a sudden since I became a Muslim, I start hearing that no I have to integrate and "conform" to Australian society. I find this rather bizarre and again very hypocritical.

Do you "integrate" into Australia?

I'd say the reason is because most of us don't understand islam and are therefore suspect.
I didn't know my mate whos teasching me structural at the moment was a muslim until he wrote his middle name in an exam last year (mohammed). He's as Aussie as it gets. Its great, because he's like us we're not afraid of offending him. With some of the muslims i've met at uni, its hard to be normal with them because they get offended easily. Sad but true.

There's plenty of other cultures who are very recognisable, by dress and other means. Plenty of Indians wear saris and other cultural dress, as do Buddhist monks and some Christian groups even. Again, Islam receives an inordinate amount of attention in this regard. It's pure hype.

In a school playground its not the case. I live next to a primary school.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

American Islamophobes, and them alone, are the only ones who could ever be held responsible for it. When you begin to open the possibility of blaming the target of collective hatred for that blind hatred, then you open a very dangerous door indeed. For example: Perhaps the Jews were responsible for Nazi anti-Semitism? Perhaps blacks were responsible for lynchings and the like? Would you find either of these ideas palatable? I highly doubt it.

But by this logic, the hijackers and Al Qaeda are the only ones who could ever be held responsible for the 9-11 attacks, you can't blame the U.S. (the victim) for grievances from 50 years ago. I've read the same essays of Chomsky that you have (apparently), your criticism of U.S. policy is on the mark but I have two objections: (1) the discussion from the Eisenhower administration has to do with neo-colonialism but not Islam per se, and (2) you give the 9-11 hijackers way too much credit by suggesting they were simply responding to U.S. tyranny, if Bin Laden had his way the whole world would be under a Taliban-style Caliphate, he's no freedom fighter.

 

[Peacewise]

Australia has Islamaphobia. Something one of my former teacher said that hit a nerve was "why do muslims need their own schools? Are they trying to segregate themselves? Are our schools not good enough?"

I accept your example, but I reject that this is representative of the entire of Australia. I for one remain open to Islam, and I'm an aussie. My family remains open to Islam and they are all Aussies, my financee and all my friends I speak to display no prejudice to Islam, a lack of understanding at times certainly but not this phobia you speak of.

Further the australian polls on the Iraq war revealed that the majority of the Australian populace was against Australia being over there, this reveals like always that the leaders do not have enough respect for the people they lead, even within a democracy, and of note is that the man John Howard who made that decision is no longer prime minister, revealing the damage done to his reputation and his political party by not representing us correctly.

Everyone knows that one of the tools of war is propaganda, which is more often merely lies, and all the BS about the reasons for the Iraq war are truly boiled down to, Hussein wouldn't sell the US oil at the prices they wanted. Everything I have seen and read after that is merely evidence and propaganda to support the case for US committing to war. I know this, and there are many others who do to and we are australian's, so please do not commit the same fallacy that the western propaganda commits by lumping all of one group into the expressed view point of a few or one members of that group.

Politics is not purely rational, politics can be about two irrationalities offsetting each other and that is then redefined as rational.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There is not a single iota of admiration in that, just a resignation to the cold hard reality, that you reap what you sow.

Compare this to your "blaming the victim" comments.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It is indeed blind hatred, as we can see in the over-hyped reaction to the South Park issue. People are in hysteria over their hatred and opposition to Islam.

There IS blind hatred against Islam out there, but I think this is a bad example. Did Matt and Trey, the creators of South Park, publish the personal addresses and threaten the lives of Islamic fundamentalists? No. It was the other way around. So who, exactly, is displaying an "over-hyped reaction"? The extremists suggested Matt and Trey will end up murdered like Van Gogh. It seems like in this case, the Islamic extremists are in hysteria and have an over-hyped reaction, no one else's reaction even comes close.

I think you're *partially* right that there are people in hysteria over their hatred and opposition to Islam, but it would be unfair to ignore the people who have no problem with the religion of Islam, but do fear the violent religious extremists, of which your religion sadly has more than its fair share at this moment. (How many major Sikh terrorist attacks were there, worldwide, in the past decade? How many Islamic?)

 

[Abu Rashid]

I don't agree that a war we're involved in is full of atrocities.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed, two countries have been completely decimated. I'd suggest you do a little more reading.

Proving our loyalty to the trigger happy yanks is a pathetic reason to put our soldiers in harms way.

Mark Latham quite aptly summed up Howard's "relationship" with bush at the time, if you remember.

As for fear of terrorism, we're not a juicy enough target.

Well we weren't before, but many experts have noted that we are much more of a target now, largely due to our involvement. The sad thing is we didn't even get anything out of it. At least the French and Germans were smart enough to hold out until America offered them a bit of a cut of the spoils, Howard just threw us straight in so he could get his picture taken with Georgey boy.

What do the Australians commit? Our Brisbane battalion guards reconstruction efforts just outside the capital.

There's been a fair few of cases of Australians committing atrocities, most of them were reported on by the ABC or SBS. Again, you need to read/watch more.

There was one case where the Australian soldiers shot up the whole family of an official in the puppet government, not surprisingly he turned fairly pro-Talibaan after that, if I remember correctly.

I support the soldiers, not the reason they're there.

How can you support someone off in another persons country committing atrocities and putting us in danger? Even prior to embracing Islam, I was always disgusted with our armed forces for participating in these atrocities (like the first Gulf War).

The old "I support our troops even if I don't support the war" mantra, is just trying to reconcile your nationalist feelings with your conscience. It need not be the case. Soldiers are people, and they have choices to make. If they choose to commit these atrocities, then they should be held accountable and responsible for them.

If it were up to me, next time i saw i saw an idiot at griffith university telling me that our soldiers kill children and innocent people i'd castrate the person.

The truth is the truth no matter how hard it is to swallow.

All of them i know are great people until we speak about Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.

I'm going to assume you are of Anglo background. How would you feel about countries that were invading Britain, slaughtering millions of British, occupying Britain, laying waste to all it's infrastructure and arachaological history? Perhaps some of your cousins or other relatives were killed in the fighting also, or imprisoned and tortured?

when you can properly put yourself in that situation, then you won't think they're not great people for feeling the same way.

I wish there were no schools dedicated to religion.

That's a little selfish isn't it? Just because you're not big on religion doesn't mean others don't have a right to it.

The reason for muslims being targeted is because in South-east Queensland they're the only ones wanting to build schools.

I'm sure Catholics are still building schools there, you just never even hear about it. That's the hypocrisy. Besides, when Jews wanted to build the largest Jewish school in the southern hemisphere in Melbourne, nobody batted an eyelid. Also when Jews wanted to surround an entire suburb of Sydney with a special Sabbath-preserving fence, barely a murmur was heard. It's quite obvious this is about discrimination against Muslims, pure and simple.

In Cararra (suburb on the Gold Coast where our AFL team will play next year) one got rejected because it was "against the best interests of the locals."

I'd say it got rejected due to racist xenohpobia, and nothing else.

A lot of people would argue that we do not recieve the same benefits Islam is asking for here in Muslim countries.

As I mentioned above, Islam established such institutions for Jews and Christians over 1400 years ago.

Besides, do we hold ourselves to our own standards? Or do we hold ourselves to the standards of brutal Middle Eastern dictatorships? Very dangerous road to tread down.

I didn't know my mate whos teasching me structural at the moment was a muslim until he wrote his middle name in an exam last year (mohammed). He's as Aussie as it gets. Its great, because he's like us we're not afraid of offending him. With some of the muslims i've met at uni, its hard to be normal with them because they get offended easily. Sad but true.

Perhaps if you got to know those others you're speaking about, you'd find out the same about them too. Perhaps it's just their aloofness at present which gives you this impression?

I'm not saying there's not Muslims who are like that, I'm sure there's people like that from all faiths. I'm just saying don't judge them based on your perceptions from afar, and don't think it's necessarily because they're Muslims.

 

[Abu Rashid]

But by this logic, the hijackers and Al Qaeda are the only ones who could ever be held responsible for the 9-11 attacks, you can't blame the U.S. (the victim) for grievances from 50 years ago.

Correct. They carried the action out (or so we're told), and only they are responsible for the action. However, the U.S government is responsible for creating the tensions that led to it. But not every single U.S citizen.

the discussion from the Eisenhower administration has to do with neo-colonialism but not Islam per s

But it's what has led the Muslim world to feel the way it does. Regardless of whether the motives were colonialist or related to Islam.

you give the 9-11 hijackers way too much credit by suggesting they were simply responding to U.S. tyranny, if Bin Laden had his way the whole world would be under a Taliban-style Caliphate, he's no freedom fighter.

So the Bush doctrine would have us believe. I prefer the opinion of others like Michael Scheuer (former head of the CIA's OBL-tracking unit), a man who spent a lot of time in the know and on the front line of the intelligence efforts against al-Qaedah. He paints a completely different picture of OBL and al-Qaedah.

 

[darkendless]

Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed, two countries have been completely decimated. I'd suggest you do a little more reading.

You can't prove that its our soldiers doing it though. Who was the witness? A local?

Well we weren't before, but many experts have noted that we are much more of a target now, largely due to our involvement. The sad thing is we didn't even get anything out of it. At least the French and Germans were smart enough to hold out until America offered them a bit of a cut of the spoils, Howard just threw us straight in so he could get his picture taken with Georgey boy.

Yeh well if we get hit its Australian muslims that will cop it. Attacking a country who sends it soldiers to help is pathetic.

There's been a fair few of cases of Australians committing atrocities, most of them were reported on by the ABC or SBS. Again, you need to read/watch more.

There was one case where the Australian soldiers shot up the whole family of an official in the puppet government, not surprisingly he turned fairly pro-Talibaan after that, if I remember correctly.

Yeh because they're all true. Who were the witnesses? Locals who hate our guts. I'd rather we left them to die than have 1 soldier die for a war he didn't choose.

How can you support someone off in another persons country committing atrocities and putting us in danger? Even prior to embracing Islam, I was always disgusted with our armed forces for participating in these atrocities (like the first Gulf War).

The old "I support our troops even if I don't support the war" mantra, is just trying to reconcile your nationalist feelings with your conscience. It need not be the case. Soldiers are people, and they have choices to make. If they choose to commit these atrocities, then they should be held accountable and responsible for them.

Support our troops or stand in front of them. Thats all i can say to people who don't support it. Its all to easy to point the finger, but when people complain all they deserve is a helmet and some camo. I have no respect for people who point the finger at our brave soldiers doing a job. **** our leaders but **** cowards who attack our soldiers even more.

Don't assume you know anything mate. if you remember i mentioned above the Brisbane battalion, i did so because my cousin is serving there, so yes, i support our troops for a reason.

I'm going to assume you are of Anglo background. How would you feel about countries that were invading Britain, slaughtering millions of British, occupying Britain, laying waste to all it's infrastructure and arachaological history? Perhaps some of your cousins or other relatives were killed in the fighting also, or imprisoned and tortured?

when you can properly put yourself in that situation, then you won't think they're not great people for feeling the same way.

Already in it. As suggested my cousin is getting shot at and bombed by a hostile civilian population of ingrates. They're defending engineers who are building water infrastructure. Its pathetic he's there for one, but even more so that he gets shot at while defending engineers building water infrastructure.

That's a little selfish isn't it? Just because you're not big on religion doesn't mean others don't have a right to it.

Would you like me shoving christianity down your throat? Probably not. I hate christians comming to my door selling themselves. I say keep religion out of public places. Its nothing on Islam, just religion in general.

I'm sure Catholics are still building schools there, you just never even hear about it. That's the hypocrisy. Besides, when Jews wanted to build the largest Jewish school in the southern hemisphere in Melbourne, nobody batted an eyelid. Also when Jews wanted to surround an entire suburb of Sydney with a special Sabbath-preserving fence, barely a murmur was heard. It's quite obvious this is about discrimination against Muslims, pure and simple.

Any criticism of islam is met with a torrent of abuse. We have enough catholic schools here on the GC. I'd rather not have religious schools at all, i don't give a damn what each school calls God. Whats wrong with public or secular education. Are catholics and Jews and muslims afraid they might develop critical reasoning?

I'd say it got rejected due to racist xenohpobia, and nothing else.

Come on the race card is over-used. The locals made a stand because there are plenty of schools in the area.

As I mentioned above, Islam established such institutions for Jews and Christians over 1400 years ago.

Besides, do we hold ourselves to our own standards? Or do we hold ourselves to the standards of brutal Middle Eastern dictatorships? Very dangerous road to tread down.

Yes, but i could not hand out bibles in Saudi Arabia or Yemen in fear of getting killed. Here you can do what you want.

I don't agree with freedom of speech in many instances. I don't like how a man can call our soldiers murders and terrorists in this country. I don't like it that a cleric can call our women "pieces of meat" and still be allowed to call this country home. But what i think doesn't matter. People need to keep their opinions to themselves unless asked.

Perhaps if you got to know those others you're speaking about, you'd find out the same about them too. Perhaps it's just their aloofness at present which gives you this impression?

I'm not saying there's not Muslims who are like that, I'm sure there's people like that from all faiths. I'm just saying don't judge them based on your perceptions from afar, and don't think it's necessarily because they're Muslims.

Its probably because they make their faith so obvious. Muslims are very proud of their faith and good on them. Then again, theres only so many questions i can ask them about their country when i have absolutely no idea what their country does to support itself

 

[Abu Rashid]

You can't prove that its our soldiers doing it though. Who was the witness? A local?

Yeh because they're all true. Who were the witnesses? Locals who hate our guts.

Well if you're not going to accept the testimony of a man who was our ally, who just had his whole family slaughtered, then you're not going to accept much are you? Seems like you want to put your fingers in your ears and pretend it doesn't happen. If you're content with that, so be it, I guess.

Support our troops or stand in front of them. Thats all i can say to people who don't support it. Its all to easy to point the finger, but when people complain all they deserve is a helmet and some camo. I have no respect for people who point the finger at our brave soldiers doing a job. **** our leaders but **** cowards who attack our soldiers even more.

Don't assume you know anything mate. if you remember i mentioned above the Brisbane battalion, i did so because my cousin is serving there, so yes, i support our troops for a reason

You're beginning to just appear a bit like a raving mad lunatic now. Just because you've got a cousin there, that's why you're so passionate about supporting it? Sounds like pretty skewed logic to me.

Already in it. As suggested my cousin is getting shot at and bombed by a hostile civilian population of ingrates

Yeh your cousin getting shot at whilst occupying someone elses country really compares to people having their country invaded, occupied and hundreds of thousands of innocents slaughtered.

but even more so that he gets shot at while defending engineers building water infrastructure.

Well that's the cover story anyway.

Would you like me shoving christianity down your throat?

Nowhere did I say anything about shoving anything down anyone's throat. The topic was about having faith-based schools. I cannot for the life of me understand how a Muslim school affects you or anyone else. Whether my kids have Qur'an lessons at school or not affects your life in what way exactly?

Are catholics and Jews and muslims afraid they might develop critical reasoning?

I just prefer my kids being educated from a Muslim perspective, rather than a secular/atheist one. My wife (she attended all public schools growing up) has recounted to me how her teachers would always put down her faith, and try to advise her not to fast in Ramadan etc. and I don't want my kids being subject to that kind of crap.

Would you like it if all public/secular schools were abolished, and your kids were forced to be educated from the Islamic perspective? I doubt it.

Come on the race card is over-used. The locals made a stand because there are plenty of schools in the area.

Firstly, I'm quite positive other faith-based schools would've been constructed in the area recently.

Secondly how on earth could one claim there's too many schools??? What exactly does that mean? How does it impact on people if there's "too many" schools in an area?

It quite plainly is nothing but hate. There's no "race card" being played here, it's quite simply a matter of there not being any other plausible reason for why they'd reject it. It's pure xenophobia, hatred of others because they're different.

Yes, but i could not hand out bibles in Saudi Arabia or Yemen in fear of getting killed. Here you can do what you want.

As I said, we don't hold ourselves to the principles of brutal Middle Eastern dictatorships.

When Australia starts doing that, then we've lost everything our country has ever stood for.

I don't like how a man can call our soldiers murders and terrorists in this country.

Probably because those are the actions they're carrying out.

You've provided no logical reason for your blind support of them, other than your cousin happens to have enlisted. Great reason. Good to see you've got some moral high ground to stand on there.

I don't like it that a cleric can call our women "pieces of meat" and still be allowed to call this country home

Mate I've spent my life growing up in football clubs and cricket clubs etc. And the things women get called in such places would make Sheikh Taj's comments look pretty tame.

Australian culture is naturally pretty disrespectful towards women and you bloody well know it. So cut the crap about being all upset over his comments.

That episode was such a crock, really.

Then again, theres only so many questions i can ask them about their country when i have absolutely no idea what their country does to support itself

Didn't quite get the drift of that one... sorry.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I definitely wouldn't call it "hundreds of thousands of innocents being slaughtered". I admit there is a war going on, and unethical atrocities are being committed on both sides. To exagerrate the numbers to that point is ridiculous though. This is a war, not a Muslim Holocaust.
I do agree with you as far as the school, if there are Catholic schools all over the area, there's no reason that there can't be one Muslim school. Although I don't agree with people indoctrinating their kids with their religion, I respect their right to do so. It is better than teaching religion in public schools.

 

[Abu Rashid]

I definitely wouldn't call it "hundreds of thousands of innocents being slaughtered".

So how many do you estimate have been slaughtered so far?

I admit there is a war going on, and unethical atrocities are being committed on both sides.

How on earth can it be unethical to resist an invading army? Or to fight a puppet collaborator government that it sets up to try and legitimise it's occupation?

This is a war, not a Muslim Holocaust.

Holocausts are generally in the magnitude of millions I believe, not hundreds of thousands.

I do agree with you as far as the school, if there are Catholic schools all over the area, there's no reason that there can't be one Muslim school.

Well don't get the wrong impression, Australia is fairly tolerant in this respect, and we have a lot of Islamic schools here. But in the last few years, there's been a few cases of red-necked residents in certain areas lobbying to prevent them. I guess that's just part of democracy, and it's probably better not to have our schools in areas filled with such hate-filled & ignorant fanatics anyway.

The ironic thing is, that this causes Muslims to therefore remain more concentrated in certain areas where they already have schools, and then the same halfwits who protested against the schools complain that "Muslims stick to themselves in ghettos and refuse to integrate with mainstream society". There's just no reason with some people.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What to blame for American Islamophobia?

Answer: The media. The media spouts a bunch of misinformation and propaganda about Islam and Islamic beliefs. All one needs to do is study Islam to see most of what the media says isn't true. There was a time when Islam was more peaceful then Christianity.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

So how many do you estimate have been slaughtered so far?

I can't give an exact number just like you can't, but I've been following this war very closely; there's little to suggest the casualty rate has even cracked 6 figures yet, and many of those casualties can hardly be called innocent (again I'm speaking on both sides, not just the invaded countries).

How on earth can it be unethical to resist an invading army? Or to fight a puppet collaborator government that it sets up to try and legitimise it's occupation?

The unethical casualties I speak of on the invading side aren't soldiers at all. I'm talking about news reporters that have been held hostage by enemy soldiers and been executed on live broadcast. I can understand fighting an invading army, and don't blame those fighting for the purpose of defending their homes, but there's no way to justify killing civilians who are only there to report on what's happening.

Holocausts are generally in the magnitude of millions I believe, not hundreds of thousands.

Would you not call the genocide in Rwanda a Holocaust? Those numbers didn't reach a million, but the purpose was clear. The purpose was to eliminate a group of people completely. This is not the agenda of the armies invading the Middle East. This war is about economic control, not anti-Muslim sentiment.

Well don't get the wrong impression, Australia is fairly tolerant in this respect, and we have a lot of Islamic schools here. But in the last few years, there's been a few cases of red-necked residents in certain areas lobbying to prevent them. I guess that's just part of democracy, and it's probably better not to have our schools in areas filled with such hate-filled & ignorant fanatics anyway.

The ironic thing is, that this causes Muslims to therefore remain more concentrated in certain areas where they already have schools, and then the same halfwits who protested against the schools complain that "Muslims stick to themselves in ghettos and refuse to integrate with mainstream society". There's just no reason with some people.

The same thing happens here in the US. Everything that appeals to a certain demographic is concentrated in one area, so consequently all members of that demographic live in that area. It's just another way of keeping the people divided. I hate this practice just as much as you do. It's the same people that complain that certain people only stick to themselves that would have it stay that way because they view themselves as better than the group they are criticizing.

 

[Storm]

What to blame for American Islamophobia?

Answer: The media. The media spouts a bunch of misinformation and propaganda about Islam and Islamic beliefs. All one needs to do is study Islam to see most of what the media says isn't true. There was a time when Islam was more peaceful then Christianity.

Did you even read the OP?

What you say is true, NOW. Pre-9-11, it wasn't.

 

[Caladan]

People need to go back to modern history and pre modern history of Europe and the Orient. 18th and 19th century Europeans, have made the middle east a project of study and politics. colonial powers such as Britain and France have deemed the middle east their platform for economic and political growth, the people of the middle east have become a project of study and have been categorized in many ways. 9/11 is but a iota in the long relationship between the West and the middle east, the US has inherited the role of Britain and France and has been intensly involved in the middle east for a long time.
a good place to start is Edward Said's Orientalism which has been very influential over the study of Western preceptions of middle easterners, and indeed of the west itself.