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Featured Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Bible disagrees with you about the generation. The ones who will rule with Christ began to be chosen in the first century......a few brave souls who were martyred in the intervening centuries were probably also part of that group...but not until the last days began did the choosing and anointing of Jesus' "joint-heirs" pick up and go to their full measure. Since God chooses them, no one can claim to be of that group who has not received the holy spirit. (John 3:5; Romans 8:15-17)

    Let's wait and see about the rest...shall we? The earth is not going anywhere...but the ones who don't measure up on judgment day may not fare so well. (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 13:36-43) You need to argue with Jesus about that, not me. :D
     
  3. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Nowhere do the scriptures indicate that this "faithful and discreet slave" should be a group of men in New York who self-appointed themselves to that position. Amazingly, however, JWs just accept these men and believe everything they say without question.
     
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  4. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Unless things have radically changed (which is often the case in the JW religion, with one "truth" being discarded as "false" and replaced with a new "truth") JWs do not consider themselves to be part of Christendom.

    They consider themselves to be the only true Christians, with every other religious group claiming to the Christian to be, in actuality, fake Christians that are worshiping Satan, although they THINK they are worshiping God. As far as JWs are concerned, Jehovah God deals with them alone and has nothing to do with any other religious group.

    For that matter, any JW who leaves the JW organization is considered to have "left Jehovah." To them, the organization is more or less the earthly embodiment of God, and anyone who leaves this man-made religion has, in their belief, abandoned God, and he, likewise, has abandoned them.

    I don't know if you've noticed this, but Deeje (or any other JW here) will never directly respond to me. They consider me to be an "apostate" who is "working against God and his organization" in order to try to destroy their faith. They are taught this as JWs. "Apostate" is just about the vilest epithet that a JW could ever utter. In truth, this teaching is basically yet another control mechanism to keep current JWs from learning anything negative about their "beloved organization" (phrase used by several JWs on another forum.)

    Additionally, if Deeje, or any other JW was caught interacting with an ex-JW "apostate," they could face repercussions from the JW organization, possibly resulting in their being disfellowshipped and shunned.
     
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  5. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Sorry, Deeje, but this post was hilarious and yet definitely expected. I wondered how long it would take you before you went on the attack. Of course, you would NEVER respond to me directly...you don't want to sully your "Christian" patina, but having the truth about the "truth" being openly stated by those who know the religion intimately is something you simply cannot deal with.

    Most high-control religions like the JWs also attack and denigrate former members who are brave enough to speak out.
     
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  6. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Thank you for being willing to keep an open mind on the matter. In my case, treatment of those disfellowshipped is not the issue. I was never disfellowshipped, nor did I disassociate myself.

    As I briefly mentioned previously, there were things that I saw being practiced within the congregations with which I was associated that did not gibe with what the organization taught. After years of trying to "adjust my thinking," I finally became inactive although still believing that the JWs were the correct religion and trying to resolve things so that I could return.

    When my husband and I finally did start to re-associate with the JWs after moving to a new town, my time away had given me the chance to see things as they really were, and that was what finally caused me to walk away for good, but I was never disfellowshipped and never officially disassociated...so, technically, I am still a JW albeit an "inactive" one.
     
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  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This is ridiculous you're posting the Wheat and Tares at someone, when you follow John, Paul, and Simon the stone (petros) - Pharisees. :confused:

    Then you have the audacity to all ignore me, when I've got the new name of Christ before the Tribulation (WW3), and you all think you're saved.

    Currently we don't actually like any of you completely, as you've all followed evil as good, and are worthy of Hell; which is why you're all down here.

    Now I'm being 100% serious, with God's backing to try; we can try to create world peace between us, and help mankind understand God before the Tribulation, else you all will not make it. :(

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you for at least referring to the WT library. The other reference is an apostate site which has what you would expect from our opposers. Twisted half-truths work better than lies. Even quoted statements taken out of context can be misconstrued.

    We follow Biblical guidelines for disfellowshipping and make no apology for it. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; Hebrews 12:11) Like the prodigal son, people are free to go if they have issues with our beliefs, (though these are fully explained before they are baptized) but if they want to break God's laws unrepentantly, they will be expelled. (This is also explained) But they are just as free to come back if they have repented of their sin. Pride often gets in the way however, and because there is nowhere for them to go, they get depressed and angry that their justification hasn't met with the approval of those authorized to judge those "inside" the congregation.....and so the sob story is told.......some want sympathy and some just want revenge.

    God will deal with all who take up his name in a despicable way....those in my own brotherhood included. No one fools him. It isn't about the label you wear.

    There are indeed three sides if you take God as your witness. He cannot be swayed by crocodile tears or by distorting the truth.The lady would have nothing to say that I have not heard a hundred times before. The only person standing in the way of her recovery is herself, IMO.

    Again, we go by the scriptures. It was Daniel who foretold the "cleansing, whitening and refining" of God's worshippers in the "time of the end"? (Daniel 12:9-10) Why would God need to "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people unless the removal of soiling and staining and impurities was necessary? We stripped Christianity down to its bare facts and examined every doctrine that Christendom had introduced.....we took God's word apart and found no basis for any of their teachings. All shared the same core beliefs....the trouble is, so did most of the non-Christian religions. The doctrines of all false worship have their common origins in ancient Babylon.

    We have nothing in common with those who love the world. Do you hang around with people who do not share your interests in any way? The Jews were forbidden to have close contact with Gentiles of different religious persuasions for what reason? (1 Corinthians 15:33)

    Since Jesus is the head of the congregation and he appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time".....then we take our ques from them. Jesus is leading them and just as Moses led the Israelites, so those duly appointed by him are to be obeyed.

    Hebrews 13:17...
    "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

    So unless you think men cannot take the lead in the Christian congregation....Paul says otherwise. Everyone is accountable for what they believe....what they teach....and for their actions....or lack of them. The scriptures tell us what we need to know and do to please our God...its up to us to know it and do it.

    Do you not have adherence to the leader of your own church? Just sayin'......he gets quoted a lot.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I know....its shocking isn't it :eek:....what could Jesus' apostles possibly have to teach anyone? :shrug:

    Jesus chose the 12...including Judas....go figure.

    So we are all toast...but you alone are saved....blessed with inside knowledge that no one else has......how wonderful for you. :) Of course you know what everyone is thinking.....right? What about all the others who have that same inside information, but they all disagree with you.....how are we to try and pick who is telling the truth? o_O

    We? Who is we? What is hell? Are we already in it? Its not actually in the Bible you know. The devil made it up...but you knew that too, right?

    According to Jesus, no one will bring world peace, but The Prince of Peace. I will let him do his job.
    Didn't Jesus say that with the 'coming of his Kingdom', that God's will can be "done on earth as it is in heaven"? I am looking forward to that.

    Just as well we do not value your opinion.....sorry. Don't feel bad though...not a lot of people value mine either....:p
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I actually don't see it as a big deal. You seem sincere. Many people are abandoning religion these days for all sorts of reasons. Its easy to see why you would want to leave the religion you have grown up with. You are still a Christian which is a good thing, but even if you were not, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

    The purpose of religion is to enable us to become better people. That means being one who can contribute to humanity and become a half decent person. If our religion causes us to loose our compassion, become judgmental of others, and lose sight of our true purpose in this life, we are better off without such a religion. In other words no religion is better than the wrong religion.

    I'm pleased to hear you were never disfellowshipped as being cast out from family and former friends is a terrible thing. Being estranged from family simply for coming to different conclusions about life is profoundly unjust. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right for us all. We shouldn't be forced to be a member of a congregation because of fear about being cast out. I'm truly relieved that wasn't your experience as it would be a terrible burden for you and your family if it were.

    I'm somewhat disturbed to hear that you should be considered an apostate for simply seeking the truth for yourself and living by that truth.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    The Prince of Peace was Baha'u'llah. The kings and rulers turned away from Baha'u'llah and they refused the Most Great Peace.

    "Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 254

    The job of bringing world peace will take a long time and it will go in phases. The work will be done by humans, not by God or Jesus.

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
    Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace. He set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

    These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

    Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The prophesy in Isaiah is about Jesus, not Baha'u'llah.

    Isaiah 9:6-7....
    "For a child has been born to us,
    A son has been given to us;
    And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
    His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 To the increase of his rulership
    And to peace, there will be no end,
    On the throne of David and on his kingdom
    In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it
    Through justice and righteousness,
    From now on and forever.
    The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."


    Was Baha'u'llah a god? How did he ascend to the throne of David? He was not Jewish. Only Jews in the tribe of Judah could be Kings. Jesus qualified, Baha'u'llah did not.

    The Bible disagrees with you. The Kingdom is not man made, nor does it depend on man to bring it about. (Daniel 2:44) Man has had many thousands of years to get his act together, but he is no better at ruling himself now than he ever was.....he is hopeless. God is allowing him to prove it. He has tried all manner of governments and all have failed. There is only one left to try....and its coming, ready or not.

    :eek: That is the worst misinterpretation of scripture that I think I have ever seen! Every one of them is horribly skewed.
    I could write pages just on those scriptures alone. :oops: You have never studied the Bible then....?

    Jesus was finished his work in the flesh....but not finished as mankind's King by a long shot. He said he was coming back for those chosen to rule with him in his Kingdom....he went to heaven to "prepare a place" for them and would return as judge to separate the sheep from the goats and end wickedness on earth, and take them "home". If this is the way Baha'i's interpret the Bible, then any wonder they they can squeeze all those strange beliefs into one religion. :confused:

    SMH right now.....:rolleyes:
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I think its important to distinguish an authentic website from one that isn't. Us Baha'is have our fair share of critics, particularly Muslims who see the Baha'is as an apostate religion and try to misrepresent us. The Baha'is are actively persecuted in a number of Islamic countries.

    Of course.

    We have people who either grew up Baha'is or became Baha'is but later decided its not for them. That's fine. People are free to come and go and there is no shunning simply because someone decides he no longer wants to be a Baha'i.

    It seems to me you are being somewhat harsh in your assessment of @RedhorseWoman. I don't think she's shedding crocodile tears or is in recovery. She's simply giving her perspective as we are all entitled to do. There will be plenty of stories of ex-Baha'is to be found on line and if one dropped into this thread, I wouldn't have an issue with her. That is an important difference between our faiths in how we deal with dissent and those with different perspectives.

    All faith communities go through tests and difficulties and its how we respond to those tests that distinguishes our character. As individuals our spiritual walk is largely between ourselves and God and no one else. The most important aspect of the spiritual path was well summarised by Jesus when asked of the most important Teachings. He simply referred to Deuteronomy 6:5 when He spoke of love for God and to love our fellow man (Matthew 22:37-40). He even taught love your enemies (Luke 6:27-36).

    I can find something in common with most people. We're all people after all. Most of us want to the best for our children and many of us simply want to see the world become a better place. Social conditions were very different in the Roman Empire to what they are now. Most people are not evil.

    I don't see any scriptural basis for the appointment and leadership with the Jehovah Witnesses that wouldn't apply to any other church.

    The authority of the Baha'i Faith rests with democratically elected institutions rather than individuals that all members in good standing over the age of 21 have the priviledge and duty to be part of. The legitamcy of such institutions is derived from the writings of Baha'u'llah Himself. Christ appointed Peter but the argument about apostolic succession has become tenuous after nearly two thousand years, don't you think?

    Apostolic succession - Wikipedia
     
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  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Hezekiah, Hebrew (flourished late 8th and early 7th centuries bc), son of Ahaz, and the 13th successor of David as king of Judah at Jerusalem.

    The dates of his reign are often given as about 715 to about 686 bc, but inconsistencies in biblical and Assyrian cuneiform records have yielded a wide range of possible dates.
     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Thus just as the Son of Man was rejected by the Pharisees two thousand years ago; everyone in this generation rejects us (Luke 17:24-26), and is then chucked into the Lake of Fire (Luke 17:27-37) - good luck without us.
    Yeshua's Testimony is how we're judged, and that is the Synoptic Gospels, following the stuff that contradicts it, just proves people never wanted to follow us in the first place.
    Because with the exegesis (Zand), we can show what the text means by being logical with it all...

    Plus the Messiah is allowed to educate mankind; our word could be a fire (Jeremiah 23:29), if you all actually accepted prophecy, rather than just talk about it.

    Most of us have illogical conclusions somewhere, and if we quit having such a big ego complex before putting the Oneness of God first; than we could create world peace on here, else everyone will die in the Tribulation...

    I'm putting humanities lifes in all of your hands, and pleading with you to actually listen for once.
    We is I'm one of the Divine Council, and a representative of the God Most High.
    Hell is the lowest quantum physics dimension, we exist in about 6D, and below us are denser realms.
    Some people belong in lower realms of dimension, and the matrix has become corrupted; so if we can't create world peace, God (CPU) is set to format reality, and just keep our friends according to religious texts globally.
    The Bible Says Hell is a Place Located Under the Earth: An Atheists' Myth

    I've been there in my own NDE, and can explain quantum physics from the commandments as Jacob's Ladder.
    Revelation 2-3 is me incognito with the new name, over the Last 15 years explaining to everyone; since you've stood against this, how is it letting us do our job?
    There is two options: mankind destroys it self, we keep the saints, most here are not invited or we work towards world peace, and people actually listen.

    Let us make this clear, Sandalphon is an Archangel in Judaism, who acts as a Pillar (conduit) between Heaven and Earth for God...

    I've fulfilled Revelation 10 on a sacred mountain, two years before reading the Bible...

    In Revelation 10:1 the angel acts as a Pillar for God, and symbolically in Revelation 3:12; so we know the new name of Christ is encrypted into the Bible in multiple places.

    Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

    Sandalphon (Judaism), Yeshua (new name of Christ = Sananda), Kalki/Skanda (Hinduism), Ahura Mazda + Saoshyant (Zoroastrianism - Zand = Exegesis), Maitreya (Buddhism - Ananda), Our Elohim Zion (Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), etc.
    I'll listen to your opinion, and will show where the differences are between the false doctrine, and what is Godly; as Literally as an archangel, that is my job listening.

    Which is why our name means to have an ear in Hebrew Azan (H241/H238), and Yazanyah (H2970) is the Lord shall Hear.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #137 wizanda, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Isaiah wasn't much of a prophet, was he?

    Hezekiah was born hundreds of years before Isaiah was born.. so it wouldn't be prophecy at all... and it misses the mark with Jesus.


    Hezekiah reigned at a time when the Assyrian empire was consolidating its control of Palestine and Syria. His father had placed Judah under Assyrian suzerainty in 735 bc. Hezekiah may have taken part in a rebellion against King Sargon II of Assyria (reigned 721–705 bc), which the Assyrians apparently crushed in the year 710. At the ….

    Hezekiah | king of Judah
     
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  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Baha'u'llah is the 'Lord of Hosts'

    Regards Tony
     
  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The lineage according the Jewish custom is through the male line. Jesus being born to a virgin essentially rules Christ out.:D

    Baha'u'llah's lineage can be traced back to King David.

    Baha'u'llah clearly fulfills the Messianic requirements

    The issue isn't whether or not Jesus or Baha'u'llah was literally God, but did They represent God in the Message They brought? Both did IMHO. After two thousand years Isaiah 9:6-7 hasn't been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and given the decline of Christianity won't anytime soon. OTOH the Baha'i Faith does seem to be in a period of rapid growth and development.

    Growth of religion - Wikipedia

    Time will tell. :)
     
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