Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah! it is not only them - I have seen many individuals in life and on here try the same thing - e.g. "he wants only himself worshipped and no other"; "he will punish those who are intimate with the same gender" "he will wipe out his enemies on the day of judgment"

These are all ascribing human traits to the Lord

They are the results of us rejecting God and His Laws. Thus our choice.

We have been created to know and Love God, with the choice to do so. God does not need our Love in any way. It is Gods love, Grace, and Bounty that gives us that choice.

Thus we can only attribute any folly to our own selves. Any lack of ability to grasp spiritual truth also reverts to our own actions. This is a world of Light and Darkness to enable us, who are created at the end of darkness, to find the light.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

If you think that mainstream scientists are not doing their job well, perhaps your denomination could spend some of its billions and show the world the proper way to do science to find its god rather than complaining about how others do science. Show the world that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones who really understand science and how to use it to find God.

Our money is spent in areas of need. Science is not one of those areas because the greatest Scientist in existence has given us all the information we need as to how it all came about. Our personal interaction with him allows us to trust in his statements rather that to trust the ones who are trying to destroy our hope and this planet along with it.

Natural disasters, largely due to human impact on our environment by oh so clever humans threatens our very existence. What role have Christians played in development of atomic weapons......raping the earth of its natural resources and polluting the air, water and food that is supposed to keep us healthy? How complicit is science when it comes to the real possibility of our mass extinction? How would we like to go out?.....a nuclear war?....or the impact of climate change as we are seeing now....or just dying the slow death of the many forms of pollution? Can we choose?

You've dropped that hypothesis from your list of candidate explanations for the universe based on nothing more than your will to believe a different hypothesis

As have you. It's all about our choices and the reasons why we make them.

Intelligent people schooled in the sciences and critical thinking understand that that possibility has never been excluded, and therefore remains a possibility. There is no known reason why chemistry and thermodynamics were not up to the task of creating and connecting nucleotides. Abiogenesis research shows that they are.

Abiogenesis is no further forward in explaining how life spontaneously appeared on earth, today than it was 20 years ago. You have as much of a belief system as I do.

It's unintelligent to be incapable of conceiving that possibility, and defective logic to rule it out without disproving the possibility.

Yet it seems that atheists do that all the time. Atheism is not agnosticism....is it? It is a definite belief that God does NOT exist.

Some Christians kill.

No Christian can kill anyone in a pre-meditated act. Which is why they cannot even join the military....because training to kill shows intent....there can never be intent.

I understand your choices IANS and you have every right to make them based on what is in your own heart. I believe that we will all be where we have placed ourselves at the end of the day. And most will get what they asked for. Atheists ask for the least.....others rely on gods that do not exist......the Bible says that "few" are actually on the road to life.....all we can do is hope to be among them.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Our money is spent in areas of need. Science is not one of those areas because the greatest Scientist in existence has given us all the information we need as to how it all came about. Our personal interaction with him allows us to trust in his statements rather that to trust the ones who are trying to destroy our hope and this planet along with it.

Interesting statement. Could you please provide a copy of the latest financial statement released by the Watchtower Society so that we can see what "areas of need" have money allocated to them? Oh, wait...you can't, can you? The Watchtower Society has never provided any sort of financial statements indicating how YOUR donations are being spent, have they?

We do know that they have used many millions of dollars to build their gorgeous and expansive compounds in many countries, but those gorgeous compounds are not really an "area of need" are they?

We do know as well that the Watchtower Society does absolutely nothing to help people who are trying to survive after a disaster strikes. It is true that individual JWs and sometimes individual congregations will provide aid to other JWs but the WTS doesn't provide them with money nor do they reimburse them.

In fact, many JWs have reported that the WTS has contacted them when they have received help in rebuilding from local congregations advising them that they should forward any insurance proceeds they might receive directly to the WTS for their general fund even though the Society itself provided nothing.

JWs like yourself just blindly trust the leadership and just assume that the "money is spent in areas of need" but they really have no idea of how the money is spent.

No Christian can kill anyone in a pre-meditated act. Which is why they cannot even join the military....because training to kill shows intent....there can never be intent.

Are you acknowledging that there are other religious groups that can rightfully be called "true Christians" because there are other religious groups that refuse to join the military? JWs aren't unique.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or perhaps there is no god, or no god that wants to be found. We are told that the god of the Christian Bible is very interested in mankind knowing that it exists, and loving, worshiping, and obeying it. If such a god existed, it would have been found. It would be as apparent as the sun, and thus its existence would be equally common knowledge.

No, God does not need to be found, since God has no needs. According to Baha’i beliefs, everything God does if for the benefit of humans, not for His benefit. Because God is fully independent of His creatures and fully self-sufficient, God has no needs.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166​

As I hope you can see by these quotes above, The Baha’i conception of the one true God is different from the relational God of Christianity. Baha’is do not believe that God wants to have a family and have humans in His family, sons and daughters. God is exalted far, far above humans and does not associate with humans directly. God is inaccessible to humans and can only be known and related to through His Messengers. Baha’is *relate* to God through Baha’u’llah, just as Christians relate to God through Jesus, but the difference is that we do not believe Baha’u’llah was God; rather, He was a Manifestation of God.

When Christians say that they are part of God’s family that is like saying they are partners with God. Baha’u’llah warns us against ever thinking we can be on the same level as God. God is one and alone, without peer or equal.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

“Immeasurably exalted is His Essence above the descriptions of His creatures. He, alone, occupieth the Seat of transcendent majesty, of supreme and inaccessible glory. The birds of men’s hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 193​

Trailblazer said: Nobody can “make a case” for God, because nobody can prove to someone else that God exists.

IANS said: Agreed. Why do you suppose that is? Why is a god who we are told wants us to know him so hard to find?

Maybe because some people try too hard, analyze too much, rather than just seeking to learn and being open to what they find. As I said above, nobody can ever *find* God, but we can find out about God. I was a Baha’i for about 42 years before I thought much about God and what God was. Only about five years ago, after reading Gleanings several times, did I grasp who Baha’u’llah was and who God is, what we can know of God. That was a turning point in my life and I was never able to go back to who I had been before.

You might find this quote from one of the hosts of The Atheist Experience interesting:

"Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions. Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this. The idea that secular morality offers no guarantee that people will ever pay for their crimes and their atrocities is not an argument against secular morality because that is a tenet of Christianity. The idea that the Christian god is just is directly contradicted by the idea that the Christian god is merciful. Perfect justice and any mercy are necessary directly in contradiction, because mercy is a suspension of justice. Do not pretend that your religion is moral and just." - Matt Dillahunty

Thanks a lot for that quote. I might want to recycle that on the other forums I post on. I am sure my atheist friends will appreciate it. Yes, I consider Christian theology immoral in that there are no consequences for actions. I also consider that unjust. God is merciful, but God is also just, and God’s mercy has to be tempered by justice. To be saved and forgiven by the mere act of belief is not justice. A free gift is very attractive to many people, but that says something about their character since it is selfish.

There can be no justice without rewards and punishments...

Bahaullah wrote: “The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings, p. 219

We should not be rewarded unless we have made and effort and we deserve a reward, and we should be punished when a punishment is deserved. Christian theology attempts to turn that upside down by saying that Jesus took the punishment for us and we get a free reward just for believing that. It makes no sense at all, but it certainly attracts followers. Inquiring minds ask why. Perhaps it is just because people were raised that way and never gave it a second thought. Others join Christianity in adulthood though and they are drawn to what they can get for themselves. Ironically, Christian theology is the opposite of what Jesus taught, to deny self and sacrifice for God.

 

[dfnj]

Extraterrestrial first contact will bring about World peace. Change of focus will help us.

 

[wizanda]

Extraterrestrial first contact will bring about World peace. Change of focus will help us.

Vrillon + WoW Signal = First contact = Ignored [Forum - Conversations] - Oneness - True Faith

In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Looks like I missed the 666 post!

I haven't posted on this thread since the mosque shootings in Christchurch took the lives of 50 Muslims over a week ago.

Yesterday my city commemorated this senseless tragedy with a prayer vigil. About 18,000 attended or 15% of the cities population.

A city united

If you roll 15 seconds into the video, you'll hear me reciting a prayer for unity lol.

I'm so proud of the people of my city and country who have responded with love and reached out to others.

Ka kite anō

 

[Deeje]

@adrian009 were you quoting something from the Bible....or did you write that? Just wondering if there was a reason for the archaic English?

Why does it take a tragedy to unite people? Then again, on the news tonight a woman attacked a mother on a bus who had her baby in a pram, just because she was Indian......despite her screams, no one came to help her.

Mother with pram attacked: 'Nobody came to help'

What on earth is wrong with these people? How can you hate someone you don't even know?

I will never understand how people can allow themselves to be persuaded to hate enough to resort to violence, just because another person is a different nationality or religion. It makes no sense.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 were you quoting something from the Bible....or did you write that? Just wondering if there was a reason for the archaic English?

Why does it take a tragedy to unite people? Then again, on the news tonight a woman attacked a mother on a bus who had her baby in a pram, just because she was Indian......despite her screams, no one came to help her.

Mother with pram attacked: 'Nobody came to help'

What on earth is wrong with these people? How can you hate someone you don't even know?

I will never understand how people can allow themselves to be persuaded to hate enough to resort to violence, just because another person is a different nationality or religion. It makes no sense.

The phrase at the end is Maori. For me its just an expression of being a New Zealander and having solidarity with the indigenous peoples of our land.

I wonder if the woman who assaulted the other was mentally ill. The most disturbing part of the story is how long it took for anyone to respond.

Having an us and them mentality is human nature. One group feels they are better than the other and soon there is a combination of self-aggrandisement and devaluing the other. Racism is an example. Nationalism and religious prejudice is another. Its like tribalism. The remedy is love. The most potent form of love is the love of God through His Messengers.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Our money is spent in areas of need. Science is not one of those areas because the greatest Scientist in existence has given us all the information we need as to how it all came about.

Scripture gives us no useful information about how the world works, yet you claim that that is all you need to know - nothing. Nevertheless, you use the scientific knowledge provided by man as you are right now at your computer. What message do you suppose that sends?

Our personal interaction with him allows us to trust in his statements rather that to trust the ones who are trying to destroy our hope and this planet along with it.

I don't believe that you have a personal relationship with a god. Nor do I believe that anybody is trying to destroy your hope or the planet.

Natural disasters, largely due to human impact on our environment by oh so clever humans threatens our very existence.

I'll bet that there were earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, mudslides and tsunamis long before man arrived on the scene.

You have absolutely nothing good to say about mankind, do you.?

What role have Christians played in development of atomic weapons......raping the earth of its natural resources and polluting the air, water and food that is supposed to keep us healthy?

What role have Christians played in those activities? I imagine that their role is proportional to their numbers. The US is about 70-75% Christian now, so they play the biggest role there.

How complicit is science when it comes to the real possibility of our mass extinction?

Not complicit at all. Scientists develop information about reality. Governments and industry decide how it will be used.

You also have nothing good to say about science.

My preferred hypothesis is that our universe is the product of a multiverse that creates uncounted universes of every type possible, the reason being that it is the more parsimonious of the two hypothesis that can address the fine tuning argument, the other being a god hypothesis. The multiverse can generate a universe stable enough for matter, life, and mind to arise in it without invoking a conscious agent. You've dropped that hypothesis from your list of candidate explanations for the universe based on nothing more than your will to believe a different hypothesis

​

As have you.

That is incorrect. My list of candidate hypotheses for the source of the universe has three element, gods being one of them. I have told you multiple times that I have not ruled gods out because I can't, just as you cannot rule them in without committing the logical fallacies I recently enumerated for you. There is no observation, experiment, algorithm, or any other method that can rule gods in or out, so I don't. That would be a leap of faith, and you know my thoughts on faith.

Abiogenesis is no further forward in explaining how life spontaneously appeared on earth, today than it was 20 years ago.

That is incorrect. Quite a bit of progress has been made in abiogenesis research. I'd share some of it with you, but I know that you have no interest in the subject except to berate it. If you were interested, you'd already be aware of the progress

You have as much of a belief system as I do.

We come to our beliefs by radically different methods. My beliefs are justified by reason applied to evidence. Your most fundamental belief from which your worldview derives is faith based, that is, unjustified and based only on the will to believe.

Atheism is not agnosticism....is it? It is a definite belief that God does NOT exist.

Atheism does not require the belief that there are no gods, and its the minority of atheists that make that claim. Most are agnostic atheists like me - atheists because we answer "No" when asked if we believe in a god or gods, and agnostics if we answer "I don't know" when asked if a god or gods exist.

No Christian can kill anyone in a pre-meditated act.

Sure they can. How many times do you want to repeat that? You keep telling me how you define Christian, and I keep telling you that your definition is not mine.

Which is why they cannot even join the military....because training to kill shows intent....there can never be intent.

Yet they do. I was once a Christian in the American army. They even have chaplains in the military to tend to the needs of religious soldiers, Christians included..

It is true that individual JWs and sometimes individual congregations will provide aid to other JWs but the WTS doesn't provide them with money nor do they reimburse them.

That's what I've read. Yet in the States, they get tax deductions that charities get, and probably a parsonage allowance.

In fact, many JWs have reported that the WTS has contacted them when they have received help in rebuilding from local congregations advising them that they should forward any insurance proceeds they might receive directly to the WTS for their general fund even though the Society itself provided nothing.

That's disgusting. And Deeje goes on about how greedy everybody else is. She points at the medical profession quite frequently, alleging that it exists only to extract as much money from patients as possible, which is untrue, but might apply to her religion. Modern medicine saves lives, preserves or increases function, and provides relief from unpleasant symptoms. If it disappeared from the world, the results would be costly.

Can the same be said about the Jehovah's Witnesses?

I was a Baha’i for about 42 years before I thought much about God and what God was.

That's surprising.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

@adrian009 were you quoting something from the Bible....or did you write that? Just wondering if there was a reason for the archaic English?

Why does it take a tragedy to unite people? Then again, on the news tonight a woman attacked a mother on a bus who had her baby in a pram, just because she was Indian......despite her screams, no one came to help her.

Mother with pram attacked: 'Nobody came to help'

What on earth is wrong with these people? How can you hate someone you don't even know?

I will never understand how people can allow themselves to be persuaded to hate enough to resort to violence, just because another person is a different nationality or religion. It makes no sense.

Oh, Deeje, I cannot believe that you wrote this. Do you really believe that hatred towards others is something you find difficult to understand? JWs are TAUGHT to hate ex-JWs, and they believe that God commands them to do so even though they have to twist scripture in order to rationalize their hatred for former members. In fact, JWs tend to be very proud of their hatred of former members.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Looks like I missed the 666 post!

I haven't posted on this thread since the mosque shootings in Christchurch took the lives of 50 Muslims over a week ago.

Yesterday my city commemorated this senseless tragedy with a prayer vigil. About 18,000 attended or 15% of the cities population.

A city united

If you roll 15 seconds into the video, you'll hear me reciting a prayer for unity lol.

I'm so proud of the people of my city and country who have responded with love and reached out to others.

Ka kite anō

Thank you for posting this Adrian. What a beautiful, moving ceremony. Sadly, leaders such as our President Trump have been ramping up the hatred that previously had existed but was kept under wraps more or less. Now, however, these hate-filled people believe that they are justified in attacking those they consider to be "other."

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I was a Baha’i for about 42 years before I thought much about God and what God was.

IANS said: That's surprising.

It wouldn’t be if you knew the reason I became a Baha’i.
God was the furthest thing from my mind back when I was younger. I joined because of the teachings and principles of the Baha’i Faith.
But now that I am older, God is on my mind all the time. I had to play catch-up.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for posting this Adrian. What a beautiful, moving ceremony. Sadly, leaders such as our President Trump have been ramping up the hatred that previously had existed but was kept under wraps more or less. Now, however, these hate-filled people believe that they are justified in attacking those they consider to be "other."

I see the current state of American politics as an abherration. World leaders have an enormous responsibility to work towards the betterment of all regardless of race, religion or where they sit in the political spectrum. International cooperation is becoming more essential, not less. Unfortunately there are those who fan the flames of racisim and nationalism, promoting division and intolerance. It is so important to remain focused on the many positive changes in the world and be aligned with those who are making a difference.

When we have a vision we fluorish, without a vision we perish.

Proverbs 29:18

 

[Deeje]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg....just wondering how is Cyclone Trevor treating you up there? Top end is getting hit hard with 2 cat. 4 Cyclones at once.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg....just wondering how is Cyclone Trevor treating you up there? Top end is getting hit hard with 2 cat. 4 Cyclones at once.

All good Deeje, missed us by a couple hundred of kilometers. No rain, no wind, no show.

We really need the rain. Hopefully the low will give us some? Still none this morning though?

Hope you and community are well and happy and have a Christ filled day . Regards Tony

 

[Samael_Khan]

There is most definitely a sense of superiority within the JW organization. After all, JWs "know" that they are "God's chosen people" and they "know" that they are destined for Paradise while any "worldlings" who reject them are destined for death. It's not so much that people in the world are not good enough for the JWs to mix with, although that is probably a small part of it, but mainly that non-JWs pose a danger to the spirituality of JWs and should, therefore, be avoided if at all possible.



I'll try to answer this as best I can. When out in "field service" JWs are expected to dress "appropriately" (as dictated by the group's leaders) which means that the men and boys (sometimes toddlers) wear suits and ties and the women and girls wear dresses (length below the knee, of course) and dress shoes.

There's no rule concerning dress (other than that it be modest) when JWs engage in the normal activities of daily life, so you probably wouldn't recognize them in any of those venues. However, occasionally JWs will go to a market or restaurant or some other public place right after a meeting or field service, so they would tend to stand out on those occasions. For instance, last Summer, my husband and I went to a local park where they have a walking path. A couple with two young children showed up dressed as you've described, and I realized (looking at the time) that they had just gotten out of the Sunday meeting at the Kingdom Hall that is not too far from that park.

While JWs are not required to wear anything special when engaging in day-to-day life, there was a talk by one of the Governing Body members not too long ago where he was railing against "skinny" pants for men (saying that they were created by homosexuals so that they could ogle the men wearing them) and stating in no uncertain terms that sisters should NOT wear Spandex (which he referred to as Spanx) if they engage in jogging or any other exercise regimen.

Hope that explains things for you.

Tight pants Tony!