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Featured Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    What I suggest is that you read what Shoghi Effendi offered on the subject of the tribulation. There is much written.

    I am suggesting your visions may be well founded, you just need to know the source. Once you identify the source many other things will fall into place.

    I see you will have trouble of interpretation, if you do not connect with the source. Your visions will be mixed with your own ideas.

    We are heading towards great and rapid change.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    She is definitely being diplomatic. JWs generally are diplomatic when trying to convince others that the JW religion is the "truth" and that it would be in the person's best interests to join the group.

    After spending decades as a JW and knowing exactly what JWs believe, I no longer feel that it is necessary to be "diplomatic" about the religion. After seeing the immense harm that this religion has caused to so many, I feel that I have a responsibility to be totally upfront about what the religion teaches and how they view the rest of the world.

    This religion is not benign in any manner, shape, or form, and I believe that people need to be made aware of this.
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Have looked at multiple aspects of the ideas presented... Please state what you think I need to understand, that is different from what you think I'm stating?

    Just to be clear Revelation 8-9 and Revelation 16 are both a cross referencing; one of what is projected by the Trumpets, and then what is actually poured out on the earth by the Bowls.

    This happens at the time of Christ being here before the destruction of mankind (Revelation 16:15-16).
    Having met the Source of our reality, and being able to quantify some of it in quantum physics; doesn't make it easier to explain for people who've never seen it.

    Generally you've argued about theological structure with us, and really you're just guessing from history books - so imagine that on a global scale. :(
    My name means exegesis (Zand); like if i can't show exactly where each thing is specifically in the religious texts, I'd not accept something.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #103 wizanda, Feb 26, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    If there is ever to be world peace, (and that's rather debatable, considering our history) it will come from the inside, not some external force. It will take one huge amount of social change. Individuals can first change themselves, then that change can change their immediate family, and friends, then extended family, then villages, then countries. But first it takes a deep and inner ability to not close one's fist, or extend the bottom lip. The closing of the fist indicates remnants of instinctive lower emotion behavior, selfishness, and all those other negative and animal traits of humans. At this point on the planet, perhaps 10% of people are capable of living up to that. The rest of humanity struggles some days, many struggle most days. The planet is full of young souls.

    Yes, there are external catalysts than can help with this behavior. Religion, all the ones that preach and practice tolerance and peace, (ahimsa in Sanskrit) especially can help. So can peace movements, laws, governments, friends, and more. But ultimately it is the individual. Many individuals collectively make a society. If there are no warriors, there can be no war. But the minute you think 'my way is the way that we are going to do it' it's gone, because how we get there is an individual matter, not a collective one. The end result of being a peaceful unselfish individual, willing to help others, kindly, and all that may be the same. But the means to getting there varies. Just because following a 'prophet' helps you, doesn't mean an individual who goes for a walk in nature to calm down isn't chasing the same dream.

    I don't have high hopes for society as a whole. There are simply too many souls who are unable to open their hearts at this time on the planet. In my belief system, a peaceful planet doesn't matter so much, as the goal is for the individuals to achieve it, one at a time.

    So if somebody upsets you, is it easier to work on them, or on yourself? Look outward, or look inward?

    Recently I made a large mistake on a personal woodworking project. In order to correct it, I had the choice of redoing the entire project, or accepting the project 'as is'. It's easier to change the mind and its unrealistic expectations than to redo the project. That was my lesson.
     
    #104 Vinayaka, Feb 26, 2019
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not if you have to ignore other clearly stated scriptural truths to do so. The application is done in principle, but it never fights with other scripture. There are no contradictions with God....only misinterpretations.

    Jesus appointed a "faithful and wise slave" who was to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time"....until his return. (Matthew 24:45) When he returned he would reward his "slave" for a job well done. And he would put everything to right here on earth by eliminating all opposers of his rulership and rewarding his slaves with positions of authority in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Like Jesus, they will be both rulers and priests, assigned to bring redeemed humanity back into an appropriate condition by removing sin and death forever and handing a perfected human race back into his Father's care as it was purposed in the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    And if you read that scripture, it confirms everything I just said.....

    "We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose."

    You just interpret it according to your beliefs. What is God's purpose? It begins in Genesis and end in Revelation. No other holy writings are needed because the Revelation takes us 1,000 years into the future.

    Also Romans 8:2....


    " For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

    If sin and death are not to be eradicated, then Christ came for nothing. He came to "undo" what the devil tempted Adam to do. (Romans 5:12) Adam's sin is still very much in evidence and the outworking of God's purpose is still taking place. God is not restricted by time as we mortals are, so in Universal time everything takes a lot longer than many collective human lifetimes.

    God's original purpose for the earth and for mankind will go ahead just as he planned. (Isaiah 55:11) We just have to do as God tells us so that we are not judged as "workers of lawlessness"...ones that Christ "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It is clear that your experience growing up as a Jehovah Witness has been extremely damaging. I appreciate your candour.

    I have a number of concerns about the Jehovah Witnesses too other than the absurdity of the UN being the beast in the book of Revelations. Another is their view of themselves as representing the sole and exclusive truth of Christendom, their dark view of other religions and Christian denominations, and their aloofness from those outside their own community.
     
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  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    As a Baha'i I can offer that in return

    God works in mysterious ways and there are many paths to and away from God. God guides all upon them to the narrow gate and the narrow road. It is up to us to use the signs correctly.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Globalization has been on the the UN agenda for many decades.

    Jesus didn't lie. You misinterpret what he said. The "generation" that Jesus spoke about are the ones who will rule with him in heaven. All of the first Christians were of that group, taken into the new covenant....but he also foretold that an apostasy would take place. "Weeds" of false Christianity would be sown in the world by the devil, "while men were sleeping", in order to take worship away from the true God once again. The ones who were holding back that apostasy were the apostles. Once they had passed away, (sleeping in death) the apostasy would gain momentum until the counterfeit was the only "Christianity" in existence. Christendom was born and took over to cultivate more weeds like themselves.

    The choosing of that "generation" went into a sort of hiatus until the "time of the end" when God would cleanse a people and return them to true worship. (Daniel 12:9-10) Once again, there would be genuine Christians who would qualify for positions in the Kingdom. That "generation" did not pass away. Many of them are still with us.

    The Revelation was written well after the fall of Jerusalem, so its outworking was yet future. The prophesy given to his disciples by Jesus in Matthew 24:3-14 had an initial fulfillment in the fall of Jerusalem, but Jesus took it further and applied it to his second coming. This prophesy has two separate fulfillments at two different times in history. The first was nothing compared to what is about to be unleashed on this earth in our time. The first fulfillment was local.....the next one is global. (Matthew 24:21)

    After describing the destruction of the Temple and indeed the fall of the whole Jewish system, the disciples asked...
    “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

    4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.


    7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.


    9 Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."


    1914 saw the greatest war in the history of mankind...."nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom" the FIRST World War. Food shortages followed as well as the Spanish flu epidemic that followed, taking more lives than the war did. It was just the beginning of pangs of distress as it was overshadowed by a second and more heinous Second World War. 1914 was the beginning of "the time of the end". No one knows when the end will come....but all indications are, that it will be soon. Trust has all but disappeared from the world and "love" along with it. Everyone is out for themselves.

    The fall of Jerusalem taught us a lot about obedience to Christ's commands. Those who did not obey his instructions may have felt secure as time went on and nothing happened. The Christians had left everything they owned and fled to the mountains when the Romans withdrew for no apparent reason, allowing the Christians to flee......but some may have received word that after several years, the Romans had not come back. They may have been lured into returning to what they had left behind. If they did, then they would have been caught by surprise as the Romans under General Vespasian and his son, Titus laid siege to the city and destroyed it completely....finishing what Cestius Gallus had started 4 years before.

    Inside the city, rival Jewish factions engaged in vicious struggles. The city's grain reserves were destroyed, the area surrounding the temple was leveled, and more than 20,000 Jews were killed. Vespasian delayed his advance toward Jerusalem, declaring: ‘God acts as a Roman general better than I can do; our enemies are destroying one another with their own hands.’

    The Jews failed to accept their Messiah and paid the price. (Matthew 23:37-39) The destruction of the Temple forever changed the way that Jews worshiped. The Temple and its priesthood were the center of Jewish worship and the only place where sacrifices could be offered for their sins. God never commanded that the Temple be rebuilt.....and for good reason.

    The apostle Paul explained why. (Acts 17:24) The literal Temple was a shadow of something grander and more spiritual than anything man could build.....the true Temple was in heaven and it is where those chosen to rule with Christ (the appointed High Priest) will carry out their priestly duties for redeemed mankind. They will clearly have earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    No, sorry, not to me. The Bible is all I need and my own instructors have helped me to see the big picture very clearly. I have no unanswered questions. I don't wonder about anything.....its all written in God's word. "Food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) :)
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    We've had "globalization" since the bronze age.. Not every country had copper mines or salt.

    The tribulation was horrible.. Some were reduced to cannibalism. Why did you bring up WW1?

    Vespasian didn't stay long.. He was called to Rome to become Emperor. His son Titus was not as experienced and lost control of the situation. Vespasian, before he left for Rome, was happy to hold back and let them fight each other.
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    The Battle of Meggiddo that defeated the last of the Beast, the Ottomon Empire was most likely the armaggeden talked about in scripture;

    Armageddon - Wikipedia

    General Allenby knew of its importance.

    The subsequent fall of Jerusalem at the close of the 1st world was also done in miraculous circumstances based on bible passages as understood by General Allenby.

    Part of the orders of General Allenby was to save Abdul'baha from the Ottoman's, which he did, and Akka also fell without a fight.

    The Bible also warns us that many will say they are of Christ and say they know scripture and lead people astray.

    It is the Spirit of Truth, with a new name that was to guide us to all Truth.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I thought better of you than responding to a one-sided sob story Adrian.....as if the entire brotherhood should be judged on the actions of a few misguided souls. Yet, I wonder what the other side of the story sounds like?

    Do you even know these people or more importantly, their mental status? As a physician, should you not take their words with a grain of salt until you can verify their story? Do you know if their stories are even true, or grossly exaggerated to justify their defection? The net is awash with those who have turned on their former congregation members because they have nowhere else to go. That is what causes the angst and the bitterness.....once you learn the truth, you can't "unlearn" it. They have burned their bridges and the world that God has condemned is their only refuge. They end up as pathetic whiners, soliciting sympathy because of those big bad JW's........good grief. :rolleyes:
    In all my years as a JW I have not come across these monsters. But I don't expect my brothers to be any more perfect than I am....any more perfect than Jesus' own apostles.

    Isn't this why a judge needs to hear all the evidence before making a judgment? As we judge, so we will be judged. Isn't that how its supposed to work? There are none more malicious than "ex"s. The line between love and hate can be very thin.

    Actually, just as you Baha'i's are no part of the Christian religion, nor are you part of the Islamic faith, so Jehovah's Witnesses are no part of Christendom. We have no beliefs in common with them, nor are we aloof from anyone.....we interact with people every day.

    We see the present world as meriting God's judgment. It is coming, ready or not, so if we are out there warning people about God's intentions and "like the days of Noah", no one is listening....what will the outcome be for the ones who scoff and ignore? (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 3:3-7)

    1 Peter 4:16-18....
    "But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?

    As Peter stated "if the judgment starts with US"? That is, all who profess belief in Christ, what will be the outcome for those without faith or those who are ungodly? I'll take Peter's word for that. We ignore scripture at our own peril IMO.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Many, many battles have been fought at Megiddo. In fact there is a fascinating history..

    Excavation has uncovered about 26 layers of settlements dating back to the Chalcolithic period and the first four layers have been identified. The hill top was a Canaanite city, an Egyptian fortress, a Chariot City during Biblical times and a prominent Assyrian and Persian city. At its prime Megiddo was ruled by King Solomon in the 10th century BC and visitors can see the remains of Solomon’s Gate and what is believed to have been his stables. The Ivory Palace is another major structure in Megiddo, it was here that Canaanite treasure was found including valuable ivory and jewelry. In the Middle Bronze Age the Canaanites fortified the hill top and a gate remains. From the 3rd millennium BC you can see an altar 10 meters in diameter with a staircase leading up towards it. An Iron Age water system is also evident, there is a 30 meter deep shaft and 70 meter long tunnel from the 9th Century BC when the city was ruled by Ahab. It is possible to walk through this tunnel which would have supplied residents of Megiddo with water from the nearby spring.

    continued

    Megiddo
     
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  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Yes many battles. It appears at least one significant battle at the end of the age, had been foretold.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Some are still learning.
    Quartz Hill School of Theology

    Since the discovery of the Ugaritic texts, study of the Old Testament has never been the same. We now have a much clearer picture of Canaanite religion than we ever had before.

    We also understand the Biblical literature itself much better as we are now able to clarify difficult words due to their Ugaritic cognates.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Neither Yeshua, nor John were "Christians", such as followers of Paul. They did not preach to nail the law to the cross (2 Colossians 2:14) , or to keep the law of sin with the flesh (Romans 7:25), nor that I do not do what I wish but "I practice the very evil I do not wish" (Romans 7:19). Paul lays down a very "broad" roadway, which "many" follow (Matthew 7:13). As for your "kingdom of God" under the rulership of king David, "they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them. and they shall live on the land gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:24-25). As for the lawless, the "wicked", they will be gathered up and thrown in the "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:39-42 & 49-50). Yeshua taught to "repent", which is to turn from sin, which is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Those that come out of that "furnace of fire" alive, they can say they have been baptized by fire. Apparently, 1/3 of mankind will not be so lucky (Revelation 9:18).

    Matthew 13:49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Did you see the PBS special about the Mayo Clinic. You have daddy Mayo, an avid non God guy, and these Franciscan teaching nuns, who actually built the hospital, and wound up being the nurses, with Mayo and his sons doing the surgeries. They both lived by their faith. Running the business on a shake of the hand. Both going out on a limb, to follow what they believed was right.
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I would be a little more circumspect before rushing in to condemn. Isn't that what the Catholics did for those alleging sexual abuse by paedophile priests?

    I've read a little more about disfellowshipping.

    How to Treat a Disfellowshipped Person — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Watchtower Disfellowshipping Offences - JWFacts

    That's the problem though. One can appear outwardly respectable while being inwardly dispicable.

    There are three sides to every story, his side, her side and what really happened. It would be as much a mistake for me to accept a story I hear from a stranger over the internet as it would be to reject it out of hand.

    I'm prepared to hear @RedhorseWoman story if she wants to share it and listen with an open mind. I'm not sure you are.

    There are problems with your comparison though. The Baha'is are an independant religion because we have a new Prophet, Baha'u'llah. We still have close fellowship with Christians and Muslims and would happily attend a church service or go to a Mosque. We see ourselves as having heaps in common with Christians and Muslims. We believe in the same Bible and Quran, Jesus and Muhammad, and of course the same God. The JWs don't have a new prophet but have come to believe yourselves as the only true followers of Christ. I don't believe that's scriptural but based on the teachings of your church.

    While you do associate with others in your work and daily interactions, that is out of necessity. You don't seek close fellowship with peoples of other faiths unless you think you might convert them.

    Once again, not the best analogy. Noah was a Prophet of God as was Jesus. To turn away from Noah and Jesus was the equivalent of turning away from God. I think what sets the JWs apart is not your devotion to Christ but your adherence to the leadership of the your church.
     
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  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Jesus is absolutely clear about this generation shall not pass.. He's talking 40 years not some mystery number out there in the future... and he's NOT going to destroy mankind or the earth.
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Noah was a king of Sumer who hauled grain, beer and livestock down the Euphrates river on barges.. 2900 BC
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not sure what that's about....globalization as inferred in scripture is the political world entities individually combining to give their collective power to one world government....with one set of laws for all. They already have their enforcers trained and ready to go...haven't you noticed that the police are now in combat gear?

    Do we really understand the systems of government that have dotted our history?

    This old YouTube video gives some insight as to how and why history repeats....and where we are inevitably going as a result.



    The first fulfillment was indeed horrendous. Any who disobeyed Christ would have regretted their decision.

    Why bring up WW1.....because we believe that this is the beginning of the modern day fulfillment of Jesus' prophesy. It was the first time in human history where the whole world was drawn into a war that no one was expecting.

    The prospects for peace were never better....but then Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo and the whole world was roped into war because of alliances made with other nations. No one had ever seen "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom" on such a scale before. Other features of the sign soon followed such as "food shortages" great earthquakes" and large scale lawlessness. These have continued throughout these "last days" just as they did in Jerusalem in the first century. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

    I believe I mentioned that....

    This is our understanding of the Ugaritic texts....

    Ugarit—Ancient City in the Shadow of Baal — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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