Who created universe ?

[ecco]

He really DID see the end from the beginning!

If you believe that He knew the end from the beginning, then you have to admit that He knew Adam and Eve would disobey him.

Very myopic IMO as well as a victim mentality.

Instead of making unwarranted comments regarding my intellectual capabilities, try actually addressing the comment...

Do you admit that He knew Adam and Eve would disobey him?

 

[ecco]

All I'm saying is that it is an open question. There are no slam dunks either way for the fine tuning argument. The universe is not a sperm and the initial conditions of the universe had to be that specific for us to be here.

Yet, without specific initial conditions, you exist. Please explain how that is possible.

So for your argument to work that means there are universes frequently coming into existence with a variability range as large as the number that I mentioned from Penrose, and perhaps a larger number then that. And that would make it an ordinary occurrence.

It isn't whether or not you think my argument works. Your argument is that the universe could not have come into being because of the long odds against it. Your existence proves that that argument is false.

I still think it is highly unique occurrence. I wouldn't take the universe as an automatic inevitability.

Yet, just like you exist, the natural universe exists. Please explain, within the parameters of your argument, how it is possible that you exist.

 

[Heyo]

I think that in the BB Model the Planck Epoch is the brief time span post-singularity, but prior to our ability to model forces and interactions. It has been a while, so please correct me if I have that askew. If that is the case, then there could be a recurring Planck Epoch even in a cyclic universe without a singularity. Just a recurring universal state that is currently beyond our ken.

You are right and we won't be able to have a model without a quantum model for gravity.
My uneducated guess is that a universe is a can of worms, you'll never get them in again. Even in a collapsing universe, quantum fluctuations would prevent further shrinking far above the Planck scale.

 

[Kenny]

​

my·op·ic

adjective

1. nearsighted.
   • lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.

I'm myopic? Really? It is you who lacks intellectual insight. This is evidenced by your abject failure to respond to the context of my comments.

Instead, you make up silly "analogies" that do not address the implications of what your God did.

Actually, "myopic" would be a good term to describe your God. With the foresight of omniscience, He still apparently could not foresee the events the led up to Him killing almost all of His not-so-wonderous creation.




First off, people do not have omniscience. If they did, Hitler's parents would probably have killed their offspring even before naming him Adolph.

Second, yes, people would still have families. However, unlike your God, they would not kill them all if they were disappointed in how some turned out.

You really need to work on your ability to present analogies that will actually support your views.



So, according to your view, all the little fetuses that your God drowned 4000 years ago are now living eternally in your God's heaven. Are they still fetuses, or have they grown up and even gotten very, very old.

Did all the lions and tigers and lambs and kittens that He drowned also go to heaven? No. He just wiped them out because he got annoyed at how some members of His Creation turned out. Of course, if one is not myopic, one must realize that He knew He would get annoyed at some of His creation and He knew He would destroy almost all of his Creation. Only the most myopic do not see that.

This is the counter point?

Nothing important to address.

 

[Kenny]

Instead of making unwarranted comments regarding my intellectual capabilities, try actually addressing the comment...

Do you admit that He knew Adam and Eve would disobey him?

I addressed it but apparently you didn't like the cogent answer.

Do you have a specific question about my response?

 

[chinu]

Couldn't it all be just some endless cycle of continual existence?

Of course it's endless.
But, we all are passengers hiving one common destination with different timings.

 

[osgart]

Yet, without specific initial conditions, you exist. Please explain how that is possible.



It isn't whether or not you think my argument works. Your argument is that the universe could not have come into being because of the long odds against it. Your existence proves that that argument is false.



Yet, just like you exist, the natural universe exists. Please explain, within the parameters of your argument, how it is possible that you exist.

My argument is that intelligence had to play a role because the range and frequency of events would have to be as big as Penrose's number for us to exist ordinarily. I suspect natural intelligence and nothing supernatural.

We evolve intelligently but not efficiently because the intelligence learns as it goes. We are made by naturally occuring intelligence. Nature selects for the optimum conditions by trial and error. We are selected for, and it doesn't happen arbitrarily otherwise.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course it's endless.
But, we all are passengers hiving one common destination with different timings.

I don't know that either.
I can't say which of all the possibilities is "true".
You know so much more than I do.

 

[chinu]

You know so much more than I do.

Got angry ?

 

[Revoltingest]

Got angry ?

Is that like ad campaign, "Got milk?"?
I have milk in the fridge, but no angry.
I am amazed though at how you can have so
much knowledge about things I find unknowable.

 

[chinu]

I have milk in the fridge, but no angry.

I really like cold one with some honey added.

Your location please ?

 

[Revoltingest]

I really like cold one with some honey added.

Your location please ?

Revoltistan....but soon leaving to do some work elsewhere.

Btw, a little known fact....
Honey wants to be maple syrup when it grows up.

 

[chinu]

Revoltistan....but soon leaving to do some work elsewhere.

That's NOT fair.
When it my turn, you are running somewhere.

Btw, a little known fact....
Honey wants to be maple syrup when it grows up.

Don't worry, I'll drink before that happens.

 

[osgart]

It's fun to speculate but nobody really knows the why's of existence. When I believe something about it all I'm not claiming knowledge.

It would be nice if people were not so deluded that they could clearly see that ultimate existential questions are in the who the heck knows category?

Then maybe then we could all try to get along on our own merits. Instead of on the coat tails of the idea of an allmighty.

When people sense allmighty stuff they get really big headed and start wanting to make their allmighty perceptions authoritative.

 

[stvdv]

Why do you think it was created?

Because I don't have control over my thinking. Do you have ?

who-created-universe

Thank you @chinu: Finally we found the one "who created the universe" and "why"

Be ready, a Sexdecilliard questions are about to start now (if they believe you)

 

[ecco]

This is the counter point?

Nothing important to address.

Uh huh. Your failure to address any of my comments speaks volumes about your ability to rationalize your own religious beliefs.

 

[ecco]

Post #101

Do you admit that He knew Adam and Eve would disobey him?

Post #104

Nothing important to address.

Post #105

I addressed it but apparently you didn't like the cogent answer.

101 I ask.
104 You duck and dodge.
105 You pretend you didn't duck and dodge.

Most people don't think ducking and dodging is putting forth a clear, logical, and convincing argument. Most people think ducking and dodging is ducking and dodging. The only people who think ducking and dodging is anything other than ducking and dodging are the people who duck and dodge. That would be you.

 

[ecco]

My argument is that intelligence had to play a role because the range and frequency of events would have to be as big as Penrose's number for us to exist ordinarily. I suspect natural intelligence and nothing supernatural.

We evolve intelligently but not efficiently because the intelligence learns as it goes. We are made by naturally occuring intelligence. Nature selects for the optimum conditions by trial and error. We are selected for, and it doesn't happen arbitrarily otherwise.

That's a lot of words to re-assert that you don't believe the universe can be natural because the odds against it are so great, while at the same time failing to address how it is that you can exist given equally impossible odds.

 

[Kenny]

Uh huh. Your failure to address any of my comments speaks volumes about your ability to rationalize your own religious beliefs.

I didn't see anything about rationalizing my religious beliefs that I haven't already answered.

Maybe if you did a short one instead of a book and condense your thoughts. Maybe then you will have a cogent position.

 

[Kenny]

Post #104

#67
#70

Post #105

yes...

101 I ask.
104 You duck and dodge.
105 You pretend you didn't duck and dodge.

Most people don't think ducking and dodging is putting forth a clear, logical, and convincing argument. Most people think ducking and dodging is ducking and dodging. The only people who think ducking and dodging is anything other than ducking and dodging are the people who duck and dodge. That would be you.

So, I answer, #'s 67,70

you duck and dog

and then you turn around and point the finger at me. That would be you

Care to go around the merry-go-round again?

Or are you the type than can't read and interpret and need it spelled out reeeeeeeal sloooooow.