White Privilege Conference

[Shadow Wolf]

I think people need more than just their token black friend to "disprove" certain things, and actually be friends with black people and hang out with them long enough to observe the stuff they have to endure just for being black. Or any other group that isn't white or doesn't look white. Even hanging out with a Spanish dude who only looks Mexican to a racist, such as the pigs who pulled my friend over while she was with him they and started harassing her and her "border jumping buddy," is enough to see that people who are not white will sometimes be subjected to things just because they are not white.
It's sorta like male privilege when you go into a car parts store and people will assume you might know what you're talking about if you have a pecker between your legs but if you have breasts on your chests there are some that will treat you like you're stupid.
Now, back to whiteness, venture through some poor areas of town and take note of what color people are. Now go to the richer parts of town and take note of what color people are. Whites, overall, I don't see just a few of them in richer neighborhoods.
And quite possibly the biggest part of white privilege is the fact we steal things from other ethnicities (such as jazz, blues, and rock 'n roll) (Same with the car, newspaper, and assembly line that gets credited to America due to American privilege) and have people like Elvis or John Cougar Mellencamp who get all the credit. We even think us whities even had the concept of flying machines first with Da Vinci, but we didn't.

 

[Curious George]

I think people need more than just their token black friend to "disprove" certain things, and actually be friends with black people and hang out with them long enough to observe the stuff they have to endure just for being black. Or any other group that isn't white or doesn't look white. Even hanging out with a Spanish dude who only looks Mexican to a racist, such as the pigs who pulled my friend over while she was with him they and started harassing her and her "border jumping buddy," is enough to see that people who are not white will sometimes be subjected to things just because they are not white.
It's sorta like male privilege when you go into a car parts store and people will assume you might know what you're talking about if you have a pecker between your legs but if you have breasts on your chests there are some that will treat you like you're stupid.
Now, back to whiteness, venture through some poor areas of town and take note of what color people are. Now go to the richer parts of town and take note of what color people are. Whites, overall, I don't see just a few of them in richer neighborhoods.
And quite possibly the biggest part of white privilege is the fact we steal things from other ethnicities (such as jazz, blues, and rock 'n roll) (Same with the car, newspaper, and assembly line that gets credited to America due to American privilege) and have people like Elvis or John Cougar Mellencamp who get all the credit. We even think us whities even had the concept of flying machines first with Da Vinci, but we didn't.

Um jazz musicians of the time did not think whites were stealing their music. And I challenge you to find a music teacher who does not acknowledge the first jazz musicians were black. However, you might be surprised to know that white people played jazz within the first years of jazz's infancy. There was hardly time for a whole race to own a form of music. I don't know enough about Elvis, but I would bet he was not hated by black people at the time for stealing dance moves. Seriously, I think that your post misses your mark. If you were trying to address the historical preference given to white people within the schools I would likely agree, although I would be putting my neck out since I haven't done any research on that specific topic. Ultimately, but the way you addressed it just seems off.

 

[YmirGF]

Ultimately, but the way you addressed it just seems off.

It struck me as being so far out on the limb that the branch was breaking...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Um jazz musicians of the time did not think whites were stealing their music. And I challenge you to find a music teacher who does not acknowledge the first jazz musicians were black. However, you might be surprised to know that white people played jazz within the first years of jazz's infancy. There was hardly time for a whole race to own a form of music. I don't know enough about Elvis, but I would bet he was not hated by black people at the time for stealing dance moves. Seriously, I think that your post misses your mark. If you were trying to address the historical preference given to white people within the schools I would likely agree, although I would be putting my neck out since I haven't done any research on that specific topic. Ultimately, but the way you addressed it just seems off.

A case can be made that for many years, hip hop was composed, recorded, and performed by nearly entirely by black artists. It also offered a distinct voice for people who come from economically depressed neighborhoods, who used this voice to reveal their experience in these neighborhoods.

Not too long ago, Macklemore, a white artist, admitted he believed his privilege catapulted his music to become mainstream even though many other black artists (who he fully agrees with the hip hop community that are better) have been completely passed over and ignored by the general public.

That's one example.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Um jazz musicians of the time did not think whites were stealing their music. And I challenge you to find a music teacher who does not acknowledge the first jazz musicians were black. However, you might be surprised to know that white people played jazz within the first years of jazz's infancy. There was hardly time for a whole race to own a form of music. I don't know enough about Elvis, but I would bet he was not hated by black people at the time for stealing dance moves. Seriously, I think that your post misses your mark. If you were trying to address the historical preference given to white people within the schools I would likely agree, although I would be putting my neck out since I haven't done any research on that specific topic. Ultimately, but the way you addressed it just seems off.

Technically, Jazz developed in Germany about the same time it did in America. However, in America, about a century ago, Jazz music was considered a part of black culture (marijuana around this time became associated with the jazz music, which is how pot got associated with black culture). As for Elvis, he is no "King of Rock 'n Roll." Plenty of black artists were doing what he was doing long before Elvis was dubbed "The King." Even Eminem admits whiteness from an artist is embraced more by mainstream audiences (Let's do the math, if I was black, I would've sold half).
And music is just one of many examples. I can't really say how it is in Europe, but America is very bad about white-washing history, art, science, philosophy, and just about everything else Western culture adores.

 

[Alceste]

A case can be made that for many years, hip hop was composed, recorded, and performed by nearly entirely by black artists. It also offered a distinct voice for people who come from economically depressed neighborhoods, who used this voice to reveal their experience in these neighborhoods.

Not too long ago, Macklemore, a white artist, admitted he believed his privilege catapulted his music to become mainstream even though many other black artists (who he fully agrees with the hip hop community that are better) have been completely passed over and ignored by the general public.

That's one example.

Among musicians when it comes to their art, there's generally no such thing as race. There's a sound, you get the bug, and you MUST learn how to make that sound, incorporate it into your own music, share it with the world.

We are all inspired and influenced by one another. Most of the most compelling sounds come from oppressed communities, since nothing promotes creativity like struggle - the sense that all is not right with the world.

Just ranting, but my point is that I don't think we are "stealing" from one another. Hip hop liberally uses samples from mainstream pop music, and mainstream pop in turn uses hip hip beats and rap breaks. It's kind of a mutual admiration society. Jazz, for example, was born from an atmosphere where Dixieland was all the rage. The same instruments, similar orchestration, but a whole different sound. The sound of struggle, the sense that the world could be a better place.

Of course, when it comes to impressing labels and audiences, there's no question that a little bit of white goes a long, long way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Among musicians when it comes to their art, there's generally no such thing as race. There's a sound, you get the bug, and you MUST learn how to make that sound, incorporate it into your own music, share it with the world.

We are all inspired and influenced by one another. Most of the most compelling sounds come from oppressed communities, since nothing promotes creativity like struggle - the sense that all is not right with the world.

Just ranting, but my point is that I don't think we are "stealing" from one another. Hip hop liberally uses samples from mainstream pop music, and mainstream pop in turn uses hip hip beats and rap breaks. It's kind of a mutual admiration society. Jazz, for example, was born from an atmosphere where Dixieland was all the rage. The same instruments, similar orchestration, but a whole different sound. The sound of struggle, the sense that the world could be a better place.

Only musicians see music as solely, or primarily, about the music. I find that your average non-musician hangs way more baggage on music than it's meant to hold, and usually can't carry.

 

[Curious George]

A case can be made that for many years, hip hop was composed, recorded, and performed by nearly entirely by black artists. It also offered a distinct voice for people who come from economically depressed neighborhoods, who used this voice to reveal their experience in these neighborhoods.

Not too long ago, Macklemore, a white artist, admitted he believed his privilege catapulted his music to become mainstream even though many other black artists (who he fully agrees with the hip hop community that are better) have been completely passed over and ignored by the general public.

That's one example.

The fact that white privilege has measurable effects on music sales is a long way from the suggestion that one race steals music from another.

Unless you are suggesting macklemore stole hip hop from black people.

 

[Curious George]

Technically, Jazz developed in Germany about the same time it did in America. However, in America, about a century ago, Jazz music was considered a part of black culture (marijuana around this time became associated with the jazz music, which is how pot got associated with black culture). As for Elvis, he is no "King of Rock 'n Roll." Plenty of black artists were doing what he was doing long before Elvis was dubbed "The King." Even Eminem admits whiteness from an artist is embraced more by mainstream audiences (Let's do the math, if I was black, I would've sold half).
And music is just one of many examples. I can't really say how it is in Europe, but America is very bad about white-washing history, art, science, philosophy, and just about everything else Western culture adores.

That musicians of another color did what Elvis did before and better, does not mean that Elvis stole any music from musicians of another color. That white musicians were more accepted during that time, and arguably still are, on a basis of race definitely says something less than positive about our culture. But, that does not mean any race stole a whole genre of music from another.

I hope you understand that privilege is not about individuals. Rather, privilege is about statistical truths and cultural trends that have measurable effects which correlate largely to a specific demographic. While we can say that statistically people accepted white musicians more readily and we can then suggest this more likely than not affected individuals like Elvis, we cannot take any individual and attribute causal associations with privilege as a matter of fact. For reflective purposes individual application is useful; for accusational purposes, it is wrong.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That musicians of another color did what Elvis did before and better, does not mean that Elvis stole any music from musicians of another color. That white musicians were more accepted during that time, and arguably still are, on a basis of race definitely says something less than positive about our culture. But, that does not mean any race stole a whole genre of music from another.

I hope you understand that privilege is not about individuals. Rather, privilege is about statistical truths and cultural trends that have measurable effects which correlate largely to a specific demographic. While we can say that statistically people accepted white musicians more readily and we can then suggest this more likely than not affected individuals like Elvis, we cannot take any individual and attribute causal associations with privilege as a matter of fact. For reflective purposes individual application is useful; for accusational purposes, it is wrong.

Wrong. White people are natural thieves, killers, liars, and rapists, while non-white people are noble, peaceful, and honest. The only way for white people to wash themselves of their genetic sinfulness is to accept the guilt and shame of being white, and acknowledge that they are inherently evil.

 

[Curious George]

Wrong. White people are natural thieves, killers, liars, and rapists, while non-white people are noble, peaceful, and honest. The only way for white people to wash themselves of their genetic sinfulness is to accept the guilt and shame of being white, and acknowledge that they are inherently evil.

You forgot that white people can't be Jewish.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact that white privilege has measurable effects on music sales is a long way from the suggestion that one race steals music from another.

Unless you are suggesting macklemore stole hip hop from black people.

It isn't so much stealing the music itself as it is stealing the credit. And many artists, regardless of genre, are guilty of it (sampling without giving proper credit seems to be the biggest problem today). But very typically white people get more credit for making music that was made by and originated from a culture of a different ethnicity.
But I can assure you music is hardly the only thing that white people do not invent but eventually somehow end up with the credit anyways.

 

[Curious George]

It isn't so much stealing the music itself as it is stealing the credit. And many artists, regardless of genre, are guilty of it (sampling without giving proper credit seems to be the biggest problem today). But very typically white people get more credit for making music that was made by and originated from a culture of a different ethnicity.
But I can assure you music is hardly the only thing that white people do not invent but eventually somehow end up with the credit anyways.

Who stole credit for what? You mentioned jazz. There was a U.S. jass band , I can't remember their names, that toured Europe. They were white. I believe they said they invented jass. But, when we look to any music historian they do not acknowledge the claim as true.

There was definitely argument over the creation of jazz, when jazz first became a thing. But I do not think that "white people" ended up with the credit. You mentioned rock and roll. Ok am pretty sure that there are acknowledged black pioneers of rock and roll, but I could be wrong. Is Elvis attributed as the founder or originator of rock and roll? I hadn't heard that. I thought he was called the "king" because he had a large following that believed him to be the best. Just because people of one race originate a style does not then mean that others are prohibited from engaging or adding to the culture. Music is not black or white. Music is music. Or are you suggesting that black classical artists are trying to take credit that is not theirs despite original compositions?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who stole credit for what? You mentioned jazz. There was a U.S. jass band , I can't remember their names, that toured Europe. They were white. I believe they said they invented jass. But, when we look to any music historian they do not acknowledge the claim as true.

There was definitely argument over the creation of jazz, when jazz first became a thing. But I do not think that "white people" ended up with the credit. You mentioned rock and roll. Ok am pretty sure that there are acknowledged black pioneers of rock and roll, but I could be wrong. Is Elvis attributed as the founder or originator of rock and roll? I hadn't heard that. I thought he was called the "king" because he had a large following that believed him to be the best. Just because people of one race originate a style does not then mean that others are prohibited from engaging or adding to the culture. Music is not black or white. Music is music. Or are you suggesting that black classical artists are trying to take credit that is not theirs despite original compositions?

I am saying that in many fields, including music, science, art, history and so on, white people typically get far more credit than we deserve. Such as, even though many white people want to purge Arabic references and other Middle Eastern things from American culture, there are so many things that we have in our own culture that came from Middle Eastern society (especially the medieval Islamic Empire) that we would loose major parts of our own society.

 

[Curious George]

I am saying that in many fields, including music, science, art, history and so on, white people typically get far more credit than we deserve. Such as, even though many white people want to purge Arabic references and other Middle Eastern things from American culture, there are so many things that we have in our own culture that came from Middle Eastern society (especially the medieval Islamic Empire) that we would loose major parts of our own society.

I am not aware of the movement to rid the u.s. of all things middle eastern, but I realize that doesn't mean that it is not happening. The people involved in such a movement suffer from ignorance. I can understand that there is a preference in historical acknowledgement, but are you suggesting bohr gets more credit than he deserves because he is white, or that Abraham Lincoln gets more credit than he deserves, because he was white? I think there is certainly cultural bias in that on which we focus. But I do not know that I would call that "far more credit." Again, privilege is more about statistical truths than individual credit. I do not know that I recognize the cultural bias as an aspect of privilege as much as a systemic factor that contributes to privilege.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The fact that white privilege has measurable effects on music sales is a long way from the suggestion that one race steals music from another.

Unless you are suggesting macklemore stole hip hop from black people.

Um, no. I never said white people "stole" black music. I said that in spite of hip hop gaining popularity and developed quickly in black urban neighborhoods, white artists can find it easier to catch the eye of major labels than black artists.

This is about privilege. Not theft.

Oh, and I studied classical and jazz music for just under 10 years, and studied vocals and performed most of my life. I think I know a thing or two about music theory, appreciation, and history. I just have a certain perspective on it.

 

[Curious George]

Um, no. I never said white people "stole" black music. I said that in spite of hip hop gaining popularity and developed quickly in black urban neighborhoods, white artists can find it easier to catch the eye of major labels than black artists.

This is about privilege. Not theft.

Oh, and I studied classical and jazz music for just under 10 years, and studied vocals and performed most of my life. I think I know a thing or two about music theory, appreciation, and history. I just have a certain perspective on it.

Just clarifying that I am not objecting to the sentiment that privilege has an effect on different aspects of culture.

However, my posts about music related to the idea that no race stole a genre of music from another race. I was unsure if that was an aspect which you were contending was untrue with the bit about macklemore.

 

[Curious George]

Oh, and I studied classical and jazz music for just under 10 years, and studied vocals and performed most of my life. I think I know a thing or two about music theory, appreciation, and history. I just have a certain perspective on it.

Then I can count on you to correct me if I mispeak. Thus far, I do not believe I have.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Just clarifying that I am not objecting to the sentiment that privilege has an effect on different aspects of culture.

However, my posts about music related to the idea that no race stole a genre of music from another race. I was unsure if that was an aspect which you were contending was untrue with the bit about macklemore.

Thanks for asking for clarification. I appreciate it.

I brought up Macklemore as an example of how a white artist has an easier time capitalizing on and popularizing to mainstream pop culture what had been around in urban culture for years. Elvis tends to be brought up as an example too...and he never stole anything. Audiences invested a whole lot more money in him than in others who were doing the same thing at the same time.

It's a marketing thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Then I can count on you to correct me if I mispeak. Thus far, I do not believe I have.

There are other musicians here in this thread, too. But it seems it has been contested that only "real" musicians hold a certain point of view about music appreciation and history (there's my snark coming through )....I think you can get a good range of opinion here if you are interested.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not aware of the movement to rid the u.s. of all things middle eastern, but I realize that doesn't mean that it is not happening. The people involved in such a movement suffer from ignorance. I can understand that there is a preference in historical acknowledgement, but are you suggesting bohr gets more credit than he deserves because he is white, or that Abraham Lincoln gets more credit than he deserves, because he was white? I think there is certainly cultural bias in that on which we focus. But I do not know that I would call that "far more credit." Again, privilege is more about statistical truths than individual credit. I do not know that I recognize the cultural bias as an aspect of privilege as much as a systemic factor that contributes to privilege.

I am saying most white people will likely not be able to answer such questions as "who came up with the idea of the flying machine and where did he live?" Where did our modern concepts of the University and Hospital come from? Who was the first to discover and drink coffee? Although white people tend to think we came up with all that, we didn't.