Where's the wrong in cross-dressing?

[PoetPhilosopher]

If I’m going to cross dress, I either just want something simple like mildly feminine jeans or something, or want to go all the way with it. Not much on say, having hairy arms but wearing a pink shirt. I’m weird like that.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I agree, ... sometimes. But not every challenge of social convention is for the good. And freedom is not selfishness. It comes with a responsibility to mind the well-being of our fellow humans, even when we don't want to, or don't agree with them. And humans need structure, and regularity, and predictability, and to be able to project and to read those subtle social cues that social conventions and clothing styles provide.

That is all I think broadly true, but when things become too set in stone, then they need shaking up a bit, even if it makes people uncomfortable. Moreover, not all of us identify with the gender we were born with or with any one gender in particular, such that our clothing choices may (appear to) challenge social convention on the matter.

 

[sun rise]

Now we need annother new frubal....
<saw it coming>

I predict that would be the most used one if we had it to use.

 

[PureX]

That is all I think broadly true, but when things become too set in stone, then they need shaking up a bit, even if it makes people uncomfortable. Moreover, not all of us identify with the gender we were born with or with any one gender in particular, such that our clothing choices may (appear to) challenge social convention on the matter.

Yes, but who decides when it's time to "shake things up", and why? No offense intended to those with gender anomalies, but how much accommodation does everyone else owe them? I know it's not their fault that they have the gender issues, but it's not society's fault that they have these gender issues, either. So how far and how fast should society have to "progress" to accommodate them? And at what cost?

All I'm saying is that the OP wanted to know what's "wrong" with cross-dressing, as if there would logically be nothing wrong with it. But societies need structure and stability and regularity to help keep them strong and integral enough to withstand the unforeseen changes that will inevitably happen. And we need to pay attention to this. And to respect it. It's important.

That being said if a society becomes too rigid, and too unwilling to accept and accommodate changes, it will likewise become weak and parish in an ever-changing environment. So as a society we need a healthy balance between conservatism, and liberalism, so that we can be both strong, yet adaptable, as circumstances require.

 

[Bird123]

I know, another 'clothing-related' thread on my part! But clothing norms do seem to play a large part in cultures and societies around the world, and that interests me.

I'm defining 'cross-dressing' here the same way that Wikipedia does in its opening sentence on the topic, to wit: 'Cross-dressing is the act of wearing items of clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.'

If you feel there's wrong in it, why is that?

I'm a firm believer in free choice. Since this is a big part of God's system, wear whatever clothes you want.

Let me tell you about my cross dressing event. The ladies at work had a charity event where the men were to dress up as women and collect donations from people. I would never do this but the ladies said they could not find anyone who would and the fund raiser would be a failure so I agreed to do it.

The ladies at work had way too much fun dressing me up. As I looked in the mirror, I looked like a mess. I had false eyelashes, high heels, lipstick, and a dress split up the side with my hairy leg showing. There was no chance I could convince anyone I was a woman.

Somehow the crowd loved me. You could not believe so much laughter. Since I usually come across as all male, the contrast for everyone else was funny. The charity was a success. They ladies collected more money than they ever had.

We all won. The charity acquired lots of cash. The ladies and people giving had such a good laugh. I gained much more respect for women. How they walk in those high heels, I'll never know. With all this in mind, cross dressing turned out to be a good thing.

Of course, there is one thing everyone should keep in mind. You might put lipstick on a pig, however in the end all you really have is a pig. You can't run from who you are regardless of what you put on. Accept and nurture who you are. Share that which is special about you with others. If you do that, what you are wearing will not matter.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes, but who decides when it's time to "shake things up", and why?

Arguably, the people, when they don't have the freedom to live as they see fit (without interfering with the liberty, life, or property of other people).

No offense intended to those with gender anomalies, but how much accommodation does everyone else owe them? I know it's not their fault that they have the gender issues, but it's not society's fault that they have these gender issues, either. So how far and how fast should society have to "progress" to accommodate them? And at what cost?

So as a society we need a healthy balance between conservatism, and liberalism, so that we can be both strong, yet adaptable, as circumstances require.

I would prefer a society where everyone has equal rights to non-interference with their liberty, life, and property (i.e. so long as they don't interfere with the liberty, life, or property of anyone else). That could I think be sufficiently strong and stable yet accommodating of difference.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I'm a firm believer in free choice. Since this is a big part of God's system, wear whatever clothes you want.

I'm definitely with you here.

You can't run from who you are regardless of what you put on. Accept and nurture who you are. Share that which is special about you with others. If you do that, what you are wearing will not matter.

Right, and wise words generally, but who you are is not in my opinion some immutable thing. Moreover, having a wider wardrobe from which to select one's clothing can surely be a good thing (without having to necessarily go all out down the road of the opposite sex).

 

[columbus]

Personally, I find male cross dressing gross. I find effeminate men icky.

Women wearing men's clothing or acting mannish are just being sensible. I don't even notice. Of course women want to wear sensible clothes and take charge of their lives in an upfront sort of way. Completely different from men behaving like women.

But, I try to keep my moral code and ethics rational. Other people's mannerisms or dress don't impact me at all. Unless I give in to my irrational feelings, which I consider the root of immorality. It's incumbent upon me to treat people with kindness, helpfulness, and respect. It's not incumbent upon anybody else to behave or be what makes me comfortable.

It's all on me. I need to be ethically rational. If I want to live in a rational, ethical, world I must be part of it. I cannot be mean to fellow human beings, regardless of my gut reactions to characteristics people sometimes have.
Tom

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Personally, I find male cross dressing gross. I find effeminate men icky.

Women wearing men's clothing or acting mannish are just being sensible. I don't even notice. Of course women want to wear sensible clothes and take charge of their lives in an upfront sort of way. Completely different from men behaving like women.

But, I try to keep my moral code and ethics rational. Other people's mannerisms or dress don't impact me at all. Unless I give in to my irrational feelings, which I consider the root of immorality. It's incumbent upon me to treat people with kindness, helpfulness, and respect. It's not incumbent upon anybody else to behave or be what makes me comfortable.

It's all on me. I need to be ethically rational. If I want to live in a rational, ethical, world I must be part of it. I cannot be mean to fellow human beings, regardless of my gut reactions to characteristics people sometimes have.
Tom

I admire your ethics, even if I don't share your views of male cross-dressing. If you don't mind my asking, any idea why this disparity between how you view male versus female cross-dressing? I would just note that it is possible for a man to wear feminine clothes without behaving in an 'effeminate' way.

 

[columbus]

I admire your ethics, even if I don't share your views of male cross-dressing. If you don't mind my asking, any idea why this disparity between how you view male versus female cross-dressing? I would just note that it is possible for a man to wear feminine clothes without behaving in an 'effeminate' way.

I can't explain it beyond "I'm a human. We aren't particularly smart or rational."

It's not a rational feeling. It's a gut reaction. I have to work at keeping my human nature in check, which I see as the essence of morality. I can't just respond the way my subconscious, instinctive, primitive mind tells me to respond. Not if I want to live in a better world than God or Evolution or whatever put me in. I must think things through and act in a way that's better for me.

The best thing for me is a world where everyone takes care of everyone else. If that's to be, I must be part of the rational ethics that make it possible. Not give in to religious ethics or the instincts my remote ancestors passed down.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

I predict that would be the most used one if we had it to use.

Too bad then.
The Man won't do anything I suggest.

 

[PureX]

Arguably, the people, when they don't have the freedom to live as they see fit (without interfering with the liberty, life, or property of other people).

No one has the freedom to live as they see fit if we want to live together. Compromises with our selfishness have to be made.

I would prefer a society where everyone has equal rights to non-interference with their liberty, life, and property (i.e. so long as they don't interfere with the liberty, life, or property of anyone else). That could I think be sufficiently strong and stable yet accommodating of difference.

The problem is finding that ideal balance, and then getting everyone to agree to it. Because it will be changing all the time, relative to immediate conditions, and we aren't all going to be able recognize and accept that change at the same pace. And there is no one person or mechanism we can look to for making that determination.

 

[Left Coast]

I admire your ethics, even if I don't share your views of male cross-dressing. If you don't mind my asking, any idea why this disparity between how you view male versus female cross-dressing? I would just note that it is possible for a man to wear feminine clothes without behaving in an 'effeminate' way.

It's not uncommon, in my experience, to find that people perceive men who act in ways that are stereotypically feminine more negatively than women who act stereotypically masculine. I think it's rooted in our fundamentally patriarchal paradigm as a society, where the characteristics associated with men are perceived as positive and desirable and the characteristics associated with women are weak and undesirable. You find this even within the history of feminism. Feminists have had to prove their equality to men by demonstrating their possession of qualities traditionally associated with men: strength, rationality, confidence, leadership, and so on. So effeminate men subvert that script by adopting the mannerisms of those in society who are seen as weak, submissive, frivolous, and so on.

 

[SomeRandom]

as a nonbinary person a friend pointed out my umbrella was purple therefore not something I should have as it's feminine. I did not crawl out of one box to be put into another. Purple looks good on everyone

Oh purple is my favourite colour!! It’s not considered feminine in my culture, partly because colours don’t really have a gender within Indian culture. Everyone just wears bright happy colours. Though you’re right, purple looks good on everyone. There’s some very fine purple suit jackets I’ve seen on men and I own at least two very shiny purple female garments.

 

[VoidCat]

Everyone just wears bright happy colours.

since I wear dark colors I wouldn't do well...hee hee

 

[The_Fisher_King]

No one has the freedom to live as they see fit if we want to live together.

Hence why I added in brackets 'without interfering with the liberty, life, or property of other people'.

 

[PureX]

Hence why I added in brackets 'without interfering with the liberty, life, or property of other people'.

But that's what this whole discussion is about. About interfering the the social status quo to accommodate a 'special liberty' for an very small group of individuals. I'm not saying that in this case we all shouldn't make an effort. But the OP asked what are the reasonable objections, and so I am posting what I see as those reasonable objections.

 

[SomeRandom]

since I wear dark colors I wouldn't do well...hee hee

Lol dark colours are equally acceptable, as long as there’s something shiny to accompany it.
Interestingly enough the traditional mourning colour is actually white, without any bells and whistles. Widows typically dress in white to signify their status.

 

[VoidCat]

Lol dark colours are equally acceptable, as long as there’s something shiny to accompany it.
Interestingly enough the traditional mourning colour is actually white, without any bells and whistles. Widows typically dress in white to signify their status.

Does a necklace count?

 

[SomeRandom]

Does a necklace count?

Sure does.
You know I sometimes joke that Western brides are actually in mourning for their single life, since they have to wear a white dress lol