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Where's the wrong in cross-dressing?

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
About interfering the the social status quo to accommodate a 'special liberty' for an very small group of individuals.

I don't see how giving people the right to be free in how they dress interferes with the liberty, life, or property of other people.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Sure does.
You know I sometimes joke that Western brides are actually in mourning for their single life, since they have to wear a white dress lol
Yup. The color people get married in varies as is the color of mourning

Colours of mourning around the world
  • Black – sombre mourning. ...
  • White – purity and rebirth. ...
  • Red – honour and patriotism. ...
  • Purple – the colour of spirituality. ...
  • Gold – a journey to the afterlife. ...
  • Grey – grieving in Papua New Guinea.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I know, another 'clothing-related' thread on my part! But clothing norms do seem to play a large part in cultures and societies around the world, and that interests me.

I'm defining 'cross-dressing' here the same way that Wikipedia does in its opening sentence on the topic, to wit: 'Cross-dressing is the act of wearing items of clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.'

If you feel there's wrong in it, why is that?

Society deems how people are supposed to dress, so why is it important? Dresses, shaving legs and armpits, make up, jewelry, etc. Most of it is imposed on women. That's bull crap!
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Society deems how people are supposed to dress, so why is it important? Dresses, shaving legs and armpits, make up, jewelry, etc. Most of it is imposed on women. That's bull crap!
My wife has worn make up perhaps twice since we've been married. And shaving is not universal in the West.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Society deems how people are supposed to dress, so why is it important? Dresses, shaving legs and armpits, make up, jewelry, etc. Most of it is imposed on women. That's bull crap!

I agree. However with men, instead of appearance, they are judged based upon the success of their career. And expected to provide.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Yes, but who decides when it's time to "shake things up", and why? No offense intended to those with gender anomalies, but how much accommodation does everyone else owe them? I know it's not their fault that they have the gender issues, but it's not society's fault that they have these gender issues, either. So how far and how fast should society have to "progress" to accommodate them? And at what cost?
What exactly is the costs of recognizing another person as a human being? What is the cost we pay to recognize your life and your beliefs as valid and worthy of respect, instead of useless and unworthy, and why is that cost justified?

What should happen if we don't care to pay the price of your life and worthiness as human?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
That's why I have been trying to explain it to you. But I can't control what you refuse to see.

Interfering with the social status quo is one thing. Not the same as interfering with other people's liberty, life, or property imo.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What exactly is the costs of recognizing another person as a human being?
No on is refusing to recognize anyone else as a human being for being gender confused. Such hyperbole is unwarranted.
What is the cost we pay to recognize your life and your beliefs as valid and worthy of respect, instead of useless and unworthy, and why is that cost justified?
Again, you are being unfairly dramatic. What we're talking about is gender confusion. When a gender confused person expresses that confusion in public, via all those 'normal' visual cues that their society uses to maintain a sense of order and understanding, that confusion spreads. Some will overcome it and re-establish equilibrium quickly, but some will not. That's just how people are.
What should happen if we don't care to pay the price of your life and worthiness as human?
If one's life is at stake, they should reconsider their need to express their gender confusion overtly until they find a safer environment.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Interfering with the social status quo is one thing. Not the same as interfering with other people's liberty, life, or property imo.
That depends on the society you live in. Freedom and equality may be given by God, but they are protected, or not protected, by your fellow citizens. So you ignore the confusion that you cause among them at your own risk.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
That depends on the society you live in. Freedom and equality may be given by God, but they are protected, or not protected, by your fellow citizens. So you ignore the confusion that you cause among them at your own risk.

Or you challenge your fellow citizens at your own risk for the potential betterment of society (in the sense of making that society more free).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You may be talking about gender confusion. I for one am certainly not. I am talking about challenging gender norms.
Yes, and that causes confusion. Seems like you don't want to take any responsibility for this, at all. You just want to put all the onus on everyone else. So much for equality, I guess.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Or you challenge your fellow citizens at your own risk for the potential betterment of society (in the sense of making that society more free).
It's not your place to decide for everyone else what freedom looks like. These things are supposed to be mutually agreed upon. Not decided by you and then pushed in everyone else's face because you're gender conflicted/confused.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
No on is refusing to recognize anyone else as a human being for being gender confused. Such hyperbole is unwarranted.
Again, you are being unfairly dramatic. What we're talking about is gender confusion. When a gender confused person expresses that confusion in public, via all those 'normal' visual cues that their society uses to maintain a sense of order and understanding, that confusion spreads. Some will overcome it and re-establish equilibrium quickly, but some will not. That's just how people are.
I empathize, I've had moments where I was confused about someone's gender as well. I understand that you want to explicitly express your confusion, but I personally don't think it's all that helpful and, as you said yourself, it only spreads further confusion. If you are confused as to someone's gender, then I believe that the most straightforward way is to simply ask how they want to be adressed.


As for why refusing to recognize other sis denying their humanity:
Gender identity is integral to everyone's identity as a person. Just as your identity as a male is an integral part of your identity as a human person. You are refusing to recognize this person as the gender they identify as, and therefore refuse to recognize a part of their identity as a person.


Which brings me back to my question, which you haven't answered:
What is the "cost" of recognizing other people's gender identities? What sacrifice do you have to make when you recognize somebody's gender identity as valid?

And what price does everyone else have to pay in order to recognize your gender identity, and why don't we get to choose?


If one's life is at stake, they should reconsider their need to express their gender confusion overtly until they find a safer environment.
You tell them to find a "safer environment" elsewhere even as you are denying them that exact safety.
How can you justify that?
 
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Tambourine

Well-Known Member
It's not your place to decide for everyone else what freedom looks like. These things are supposed to be mutually agreed upon. Not decided by you and then pushed in everyone else's face because you're gender conflicted/confused.
Is it your place to decide for everyone else what freedom looks like?

Again, if you're conflicted or confused about someone's gender, the polite thing is to ask. Evidently, you are free to be rude or throw a tantrum, politeness is always voluntary.

But respect as a human being is not negotiable. That is the fundamental core of what freedom is about. If you demand freedom for yourself, then you must also recognize the freedom of others to the same degree.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
As a point of clarification, in case anybody is confused by my replies: "Gender confusion" does not apply to people whose gender identity is different than the one they were assigned at birth. These people are generally not confused any more when they choose to "out" themselves in public. The "gender confusion" in this case exists entirely on part of onlookers who are unsure of another person's gender.

I'm not talking in the abstract, by the way. One of my students from a course I taught a year ago or so was a very intelligent, hard working, beautiful lady who happened to have been born male. She was not at all confused as to her identity as a woman, and neither were most of her fellow students, who treated her just like any other woman. She looked and dressed like a very feminine woman. The "gender confusion" in her case originated solely from a document on my computer that told me her gender was "male" instead of "female".

Now I ask you, why should I have privileged that document's confusing statement over this woman's conviction in her own identity, and everyone else's judgement?

Why is the one who is confused about somebody else's gender the authority on other people's identities?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I empathize, I've had moments where I was confused about someone's gender as well. I understand that you want to explicitly express your confusion, but I personally don't think it's all that helpful and, as you said yourself, it only spreads further confusion. If you are confused as to someone's gender, then I believe that the most straightforward way is to simply ask how they want to be addressed.
The confusion has already been expressed by someone deliberately defying the social norms indicating gender, mating status, character, and so on based on their own internal gender conflict/confusion. Which then confuses and conflicts everyone else. Some people will quickly be able to embrace this new variant in social status, but many will take longer, and some will find it very difficult to ever accept or adapt. This is not society's fault. Nor is it necessarily society's obligation to accept this new variant in it's social norms, at all.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

"Liberals" (of which I am notoriously one) have an annoying tendency to just assume, blindly, that the changes they want to see happen in society are for the better, and that it is therefor society's obligation to adopt and implement those changes. LIBERALS ARE OFTEN GUILTY of the blind arrogance that conservatives so often accuse them of. And I think this is just one example of this, among many.
As for why refusing to recognize other sis denying their humanity:
Gender identity is integral to everyone's identity as a person. Just as your identity as a male is an integral part of your identity as a human person. You are refusing to recognize this person as the gender they identify as, and therefore refuse to recognize a part of their identity as a person.
Our internalized gender identification is not at issue, here. It's how we choose to 'signal' ourselves in that regard, to others, that is at issue. And also the fact that our society does not currently have a comfortable set of categories, labels, and signals to designate one as being within one of these anomalous categories of relatively rare gender conflicted/confused folks. The necessary mechanisms of social specificity just don't exist, yet, and until they do people will get confused and probably resentful toward those causing that confusion, when they find themselves being confronted by it.
Which brings me back to my question, which you haven't answered:
What is the "cost" of recognizing other people's gender identities?
The cost is the disruption of social cohesion, peace, order, and comfort.
What sacrifice do you have to make when you recognize somebody's gender identity as valid?
I had to change my concept of gender identity, and my perception of 'reality' as I knew it. And this is no small thing to ask of anyone.
And what price does everyone else have to pay in order to recognize your gender identity, and why don't we get to choose?
My gender identity is immediately recognizable, so no one is having to pay any particular cost for it. And you do get to choose how you will present yourself to your fellow citizens, regardless of your internal gender conflict or confusion. The world is what it is. And you are what you are. But you do get to choose how you relate the latter to the former.
You tell them to find a "safer environment" elsewhere even as you are denying them that exact safety.
How can you justify that?
I am not denying anyone anything. I am simply pointing out that you are ONE among MANY. And to forget that, or to presume too much of it, would not be wise.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Is it your place to decide for everyone else what freedom looks like?
No, not my place either. We are both just ONE among MANY.
Again, if you're conflicted or confused about someone's gender, the polite thing is to ask. Evidently, you are free to be rude or throw a tantrum, politeness is always voluntary.
The whole point of these social cues and signals is so we don't have to ask. We don't want to have to ask. We want to feel that we know what we need to know about you at a glance, without asking. And then if we want to know more, we will ask more, specifically.
To be shown respect by others, as a human being is not negotiable.
To be shown respect from other people you have show them respect, too. Which you don't seem to want to do, here, at all.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Yes, and that causes confusion. Seems like you don't want to take any responsibility for this, at all. You just want to put all the onus on everyone else. So much for equality, I guess.

If the confusion stems from people not being very accepting of others' rights to express themselves as they see fit (in a way that I really don't think impacts others' liberty), then I do believe those people need to be challenged. That is what I see as my responsibility.
 
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