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Featured Where did all the Muslims, in RFs, go?!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Shia Islam, Dec 25, 2019.

  1. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Islamophobia as a word is less than useful at this point.

    It has become far too loaded, due to the criminal abuse of the word in order to supress any criticism of Islaam or of Muslims.
     
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  2. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    To be fair, Islaam is a remarkably unique doctrine - and one of the reasons why it is remarkable, alas, is due to how difficult it is to coexist with it.

    For that matter, it is remarkably difficult for Muslims to coexist even with other Muslims. Nowhere else in the history of humanity have we found such deep, lasting and bloody schisms inside any doctrine.

    It is no accident that Muslims feel so defensive towards the doctrine. It is indeed very vulnerable to a logical analysis.
     
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  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think Christianity and Judaism were at the same state of Islam centuries ago. Specially Jewdism went through similar history as Islam is going now. I am talking about Jewdaism after Jesus appeared, and some centuries after that.
     
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  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The schism is widely exaggerated in the Western press. In most of the Arab world they live and work side by side.

    Islam is quite logical.. The don't believe in original sin or blood sacrifice.
     
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  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Really?

    Can you give me some examples? What do you see as comparable to the Shia/Sunni split or to the Battle of the Camel, for instance? Do you see paralllels to Ashura, or to the idea of Dhimmitude?
     
  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I don't think so.

    If the Western press is so influential as to convince Saudi Arabia and Iran to promote conflicts such as those in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Yemen and Lebanon, then we should probably request their help for designing government systems.

    If anything, we could accuse the press of failing to sufficiently stress how deep the chasm is.

    Of course, most Muslims are well-meaning people that fail to see why they should jump at the throats of people who simply believe differently. You seem to think that this fact excuses the doctrine. I do not.

    One would hope so. After all, there are so many Muslims worldwide...

    I would certainly not go anywhere near far enough as to call it logical.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The problems in Lebanon are because their demographic was turned upside down overnight with impoverished refugees.

    Yemen is about the al Houthis overthrowing the government.

    Syria has had many coups since 1947..and many, many assassinations ....

    Shia in Saudi Arabia are a pretty successful minority. They are well represented in the merchant class and in the oil business.

    What you have in the Western press is a bunch of pundits on TV who don't know anything about any of those countries.
     
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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    because their actions are peaceful...
     
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  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Here's the point... you're right.

    When people act in an abhorrent manner Sharia is not to blame ( that is the Islamic approach to this ).

    It is the individuals understanding or the person who is feeding them the errant criminal justification of their actions.

    Terrorists abuse Sharia and form their own Fiqh outside of the consensus. Terrorists are not representative of Islam ( the religion ).

    And here's where your bias is demonstrated... Who said anything about a "Free Pass"?

    No one.

    That's a straw man.
     
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  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I think both terms Sharia and Fiqh should be replaced with something different like "Islamic Law" in this discussion. Sharia is important and Fiqh is important. Both are important aspects of Islamic Law.

    That said, I think that if a nation wants to impose Theocratic Rule, then, they need to accept the onus of transparency. If they don't; then they willfully accept all the problems that may arise ( including military action and occupation ) if there is evidence of human rights violations and if there is a clear and present danger to neighboring countries or the rest of the world.

    That's the trade off; that's the compromise.

    If a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia wants to have Theocratic Rule, then they **must** be transparent. If not, then it seems like military conflict and never ending war is inevitable. That's just based on world history. Theocracies tend to be fertile ground for human rights abuses and dominant military regimes. Islamic scholars most certainly know that, and I would expect that they would want to hold themselves to a higher standard.
     
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  11. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    I posted a link to the survey in the words "Pew Researched released a survey in 2013" in post 44.
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    OK... I won't use it. I simply was not aware or sensitive to this issue. I appreciate your input, Luis.
     
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  13. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Just another form of 'No True Scotsman.'
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I know, but the bar graphs make it seem like "all muslims want Sharia Law" and that's not the case.

    These bar graphs get hyped up a lot in these threads. And I'm honestly tired of refuting them. The Pew data on this is weak. It's a a geogaphic socio-economic issue...

    The same study could be done in America. Look at Gay Marriage, for example. The survey of people who would like the Bible to be the supreme law of the land would follow the same pattern as that of the 2013 Pew research you cited. People in remote locations with little access to "others" in lower socio-economic communities with less access to quality education prefer theocratic law.

    It's that simple. It's not an Islamic problem; but, the Pew research presents it that way.
     
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  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Would you please elaborate on this? The "No True Scotsman fallacy" sometimes is confusing to me.

    Are you saying that @danieldemol is making the fallacious argument, or are you saying that I'm making a fallacious argument?

    :confused:
     
  16. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Christians are often accused of the fallacy when they try to mitigate the harshness of the deeds of Christians over the years by saying 'no true Christian would XYZ.'

    You seem to be giving Sharia ignoring the harshness of Sharia by saying 'no true Muslim wants Sharia. They prefer the milder human interpretations.'
     
  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, the story goes like this for the Jews:
    After Moses established the Jewish Faith, and left the world, the Jews gradually divided into sects. According to some traditions they became 72 sects. The sects had conflicts and wars with each other. Then once Jesus came, and claimed to be Their promised Messiah, they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. After that the Jews were weakened and when In those days, the Jews went through some wars with other nations, they lost the wars, and they had to flee and get exiled. Thus they left their homelands and got spread in many other countries. Thus, although the Jews had become a strong nation before Christ, later they were weakened, and were exiled.
    The parallel of it, is, when Muhammad passed, the Muslims gradually became divided, and according to some traditions 72 sects, same as Jews. Then there were conflicts among sects. Though they became a powerful nation, when different Califs came, until when the Bab appeared and claimed to be their promised Mahdi. They rejected the Bab as their promised Mahdi. After that, the Muslim Ottoman empire who were a powerful nation before, went through war in the world war, and lost in the wars. The Muslims nations became weakened, and now they are still in war, and many of them (Syrians, Iraqies, Iranians...) started to leave their homeland and came to other countries, and this is just the beginning for them.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Well... I just think that how the law is applied is more important than the original source of the law.

    Should Americans be judged harshly because originally black people were 3/5ths of a person in the US Constitution?

    Well.... yes. And no. Both need to be taken into account. Right?

    Yes, it is and forever will be a stain on the story of America that the US Constitution claimed that Black people were inferior. But, it is important to note that this was amended.

    Looking at **only** sharia is at best 50% of the law. And in fact the fiqh is HUGE, from what I've been told.

    But, I never asked for a free pass. I'm not sure what to think of that.

    Looking at only Sharia is just ignorant. It's ignorant of the FIqh. Literally.
     
  19. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Why would a true Muslim (by your reckoning) support Sharia, since it is so harsh?
     
    #79 Wandering Monk, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
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  20. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Are you narrowly defining terrorism to exclude blasphemy and apostasy laws here?


    For it to be a straw man there would have to be no-one giving it a free pass, but if it were not getting to free a pass in places like Pakistan Junaid Hafeez would not have received a death sentence due to the application of Fiqh.

    It’s free pass has to be challenged here precisely because it can’t safely be challenged in the likes of Pakistan.
     
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