Where are the Dead?

[nPeace]

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

the dead what? It does not say the dead body is raised up. It says: “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

Exactly. So what's dead besides the body, that will come, or be raised?

The answer to that question comes further down:
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

According to this paraphrased translation, the body is raised, which conflicts with your belief, and mine, so why are you quoting this as an answer to the question What's raised up?
Have you changed your mind, and believe it's the body that is raised?

Other translations say "It is sown... It is raise." The do not take the liberty of injecting their beliefs into the text. They instead keep to the original Greek.

1 Corinthians 15:42 Interlinear: So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

biblehub.com

So, is your answer to the question What's raised up? The body.?
If not, why did you quote the text, and can you answer the question?

God gives the soul a body. God gives the soul (which is the person) a heavenly body. God gives the soul a heavenly body so it can exist in heaven.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

You said earlier, the soul is the person - you, as I too believe.
If you believe the soul does not die, then the soul is not raised up or resurrected. Is that correct?

It says raised up, but what does that mean? It says that the dead are raised up, but it does not say the dead bodies are raised up.

Why do you keep saying that, since I agree with you that the dead bodies are not raised up.
I believe the dead are raised up, as the Bible is saying. I believe the person that has died, is raised up, as the Bible says.
Hence, I believe the soul - the person - you... as in the one who dies, is raised up... as the Bible says. That's what resurrection means - a raising up.

No one here has put forth an argument that dead bodies are raised up, so I hope you will stop throwing that up and trying to beat the life out of it.
What I said was, the Bible does say raised up - resurrected.
Looks like you concede to agree. Yes?

Yes, the physical body has to die on earth in order for the spiritual body to be raised up to heaven.

36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

spiritual body to be raised up to heaven???
Is that what you meant to say? What's raised up Trailblazer, and what does God give a spiritual body to?

So what is the disagreement about?
"Those who go to heaven......"

What reason do you have to think that everyone does not go to heaven when they die?
There are no scriptures that say that some people are raised to physical life and continue living in a physical body on earth forever.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

The disagreement is quite simple.
While the Bible tells us clearly, that the dead - the person that has died - the soul that has died - you the person, will be raised up - resurrected to life... which I believe.
Those who believe that when one dies, they have not died, but only their body has, while their soul lives on, are not able to mesh that belief with what is in the Bible.

If they claim the soul gets a body, they cannot with the same breath claim they believe in a resurrection, for that statement to be true.
The question of "what is raised up", then becomes a question that has no answer, for those who believe in an immortal soul.
What do you say @Kenny?

 

[Kenny]

After the body dies, it returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Absolutely. God is in Heaven. The Heavenly temple is real. On a side note, God is here too.

But I would basically subscribe to this position:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Ecclesiastes 12:7 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[nPeace]

You can cherry-pick Bible verses and interpret them to mean what you want them to mean, but that does not change reality.

That's not what I am doing. Is that not what you are doing?
You take care though. We have come to the end of any discussion on the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly. So what's dead besides the body, that will come, or be raised?

The spirit (soul) will be raised to heaven.

According to this paraphrased translation, the body is raised, which conflicts with your belief, and mine, so why are you quoting this as an answer to the question What's raised up?
Have you changed your mind, and believe it's the body that is raised?

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

That means that the physical body will not be raised.

So, is your answer to the question What's raised up? The body.?
If not, why did you quote the text, and can you answer the question?

You said earlier, the soul is the person - you, as I too believe.
If you believe the soul does not die, then the soul is not raised up or resurrected. Is that correct?

The soul (spirit) is raised up to heaven in a spiritual body. Raised means raised up to heaven.
The physical body is not raised up since it cannot exist in heaven, which is a spiritual world. The physical body returns to the earth.

The disagreement is quite simple.
While the Bible tells us clearly, that the dead - the person that has died - the soul that has died - you the person, will be raised up - resurrected to life... which I believe.
Those who believe that when one dies, they have not died, but only their body has, while their soul lives on, are not able to mesh that belief with what is in the Bible.

That is fully congruent with what is in the Bible.

If they claim the soul gets a body, they cannot with the same breath claim they believe in a resurrection

The resurrection happens when the physical body dies and the soul (spirit) gets a spiritual body and passes from this earthly world into the spiritual world (heaven).

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[nPeace]

First, He was speaking directly to the Pharisees.

As I understand it, there was a place with the titles of "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom" - where righteous people were held until Jesus fulfilled His mission to defeat Death, Hell and the Grave. That what you do and believe and whom you serve on this earth does have consequences.

Of course, there is much more we can derive from the full discourse but this short explanation is what I would hold on to (not saying that others can believe differently)

Abraham's Bosom Meaning - Bible Definition and References

Discover the meaning of Abraham's Bosom in the Bible. Study the definition of Abraham's Bosom with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God?
How did they get soul in there Ken. nephesh (נֶפֶשׁ) and ruach (רוּחַ) are not the same, and the Bible writers did not use נֶפֶשׁ for spirit.
Would you mind explaining please.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

First, He was speaking directly to the Pharisees.

As I understand it, there was a place with the titles of "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom" - where righteous people were held until Jesus fulfilled His mission to defeat Death, Hell and the Grave. That what you do and believe and whom you serve on this earth does have consequences.

Of course, there is much more we can derive from the full discourse but this short explanation is what I would hold on to (not saying that others can believe differently)

Abraham's Bosom Meaning - Bible Definition and References

Discover the meaning of Abraham's Bosom in the Bible. Study the definition of Abraham's Bosom with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

Thank you for answering my questions, Kenny. I truly appreciate it. According to the parable, the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades, and he looked up and saw Abraham from a distance with Lazarus by his side. The parable states that the rich man cried out to Abraham, pleaded with him, and said, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ According to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. So, my questions about this parable are as follows: How did the rich man know he was being tormented in Hades? How could he have recognized Abraham or Lazarus from afar? How could he have pleaded with Abraham and had Abraham reply back to him?

If the dead know nothing, as implied in Ecclesiastes 9:5, then how does the parable harmonize with this verse, in your opinion? Finally, why do you think that there is a parable in the Bible about a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire") and was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham and plead with Abraham? Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 implies that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten, which appears to be in contrast to several other scriptures in the Bible that imply there are final rewards bestowed in heaven (like these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names are recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). Finally, I'd like to thank you for answering my questions in accordance with your beliefs.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, true, but when

Colossians 2:14-16​

​

Common English Bible 14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade.​

​

he is free to do whatever he wants because he broke the prison chains.​

​

sorry about the font change.​

​

​

I did a little reading about this, and see in that scripture that he spoke to the spirits in prison from Noah's time. That was after his resurrection. He was made alive in the spirit. The Emphasized Bible says it this way: "Because Christ also once for all concerning sins died,—Just in behalf of unjust,—In order that he might introduce us unto God; Being put to death indeed in flesh, But made alive in spirit," Jesus died. The imprisoned spirits were not yet dead but were restricted from their nefarious activities.

 

[YoursTrue]

Absolutely. God is in Heaven. The Heavenly temple is real. On a side note, God is here too.

But I would basically subscribe to this position:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Ecclesiastes 12:7 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

That is in a manner of speaking. Otherwise we'll have to go to the idea that we were alive before we were born. I think some might believe that, even use justification for that, I do not see that really backed up in the scriptures.

 

[nPeace]

Of course, you are reading it within the context of your belief as am I. What other parable mentions a proper name like this one using the name of "Lazarus" and explain to me why you believe it is a parable.

What other parable uses prodigal?
How we know 'the rich man and Lazarus' is a parable.
I did explain to you before, but perhaps you didn't get the post, since I responded late, as I had forgotten to respond

Basically, Jesus is keeping up his usual ministry.
(Mark 4:33, 34) 33 With many illustrations [parables] of that sort he spoke the word to them, to the extent that they were able to listen. 34 Indeed, without an illustration [a parable] he would not speak to them, but he would explain all things privately to his disciples.

In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus is shown to be speaking illustrations [parables], throughout his ministry.
You can start the reading from here...
(Luke 10:23) . . .he turned to the disciples and told them privately: “Happy are the eyes that see the things you are seeing.

• (Luke 10:30) . . .Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jerʹi·cho and fell victim to robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went off, leaving him half-dead.
• (Luke 11:5) . . .he said to them: “Suppose one of you has a friend and you go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves. . .
• (Luke 12:16) With that he told them an illustration, saying: “The land of a rich man produced well.
• (Luke 13:6) Then he went on to tell this illustration: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it but found none.
• (Luke 13:18, 19) 18 So he went on to say: “What is the Kingdom of God like, and with what can I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard grain that a man took and planted in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of heaven nested in its branches.”
• (Luke 13:20, 21) 20 And again he said: “With what can I compare the Kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
• (Luke 14:7, 8) 7 He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited.
• (Luke 14:16) .Jesus said to him: “A man was spreading a grand evening meal, and he invited many.
• (Luke 15:3, 4) 3 Then he told them this illustration, saying: 4 “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it?
• (Luke 15:11, 12) 11 Then he said: “A man had two sons. 12 And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them.
• (Luke 16:1) Then he also said to the disciples: “A rich man had a steward who was accused of handling his goods wastefully.
• (Luke 16:19) “There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence.
• (Luke 18:1) Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up,
• (Luke 18:9, 10) 9 He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
• (Luke 19:11) While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly.

...and on, and on.

(Luke 20:9) . . .Then he began to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and leased it to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for a considerable time.​

It looks like the rich man and Lazarus got lost somewhere in among those, but that's because it belongs in among them.

If we revisit a few of those illustrations, we note a pattern with a few.

(Luke 15:1-3) 1 Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept gathering around him to hear him. 2 And both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3 Then he told them this illustration, saying:​

He capped that off with how God searches for even one sinner who repents

(Luke 16:14, 15) 14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 So he said to them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.​

He capped that off with the illustration of the rich man and the beggar.

Jesus had a purpose for his illustrations / parables... as the Scribes and Pharisees noted.

(Luke 20:19) . . .The scribes and the chief priests then sought to get their hands on him in that very hour, but they feared the people, for they realized that he told this illustration with them in mind.​

Something to note, for us as well.

It was prophesied that the Messiah would teach using parables, or illustrations, and this was fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:35). Parables were an identifying characteristic of his teaching. But why parables? Without question they were a powerful teaching aid. People would easily remember and share them with others. The parables were also rich, spiritual metaphors. The deeper meanings would unfold as a disciple progressed in the Christian walk.

Parables also served another purpose. Jesus explained that, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand” (Luke 8:9,10). The parables acted as a spiritual filter. Those to whom the good news was directed would understand; others would not. How privileged we are then, to be counted worthy by our Lord to understand the divine teaching hidden in his parables.

They also recognized the fact that Jesus was using parables... as is his custom.
In the book of Luke there are eleven parables that are not found in the other gospels:

There are other reasons we know these are parable... at least two reasons I can think of...
1. The way Jesus began all of them.

• A man...
• The land of a rich man...
• A rich man...
• Two men...

Just as we would tell stories.

2. The content does not contradict scripture, and the element of hyperbole, or symbolism is there.

Why would you conclude that Jesus interupted his pattern - his custom, to give a true life story, at that very point in Luke 16 though?

It doesn't have a proper name

Why is that significant?

And where are the spirits of mankind?

Where does the electricity powering your radio go?
More importantly, what is the spirit in man? Since it is not an entity, but spirit from God, obvious it goes out, but returns to God, since God is the source of life.
Without that spirit, one cannot live. Psalms 104:29, 30
If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. If you send out your spirit, they are created

Be back later.

 

[nPeace]

I have offered many.

Sorry I missed them. Would you mind giving me a link or two.

What scripture tells you that people who have died no longer have a spirit?

The spirit goes out.

• (Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
• (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

 

[Kenny]

What other parable uses prodigal?
How we know 'the rich man and Lazarus' is a parable.
I did explain to you before, but perhaps you didn't get the post, since I responded late, as I had forgotten to respond

Basically, Jesus is keeping up his usual ministry.
(Mark 4:33, 34) 33 With many illustrations [parables] of that sort he spoke the word to them, to the extent that they were able to listen. 34 Indeed, without an illustration [a parable] he would not speak to them, but he would explain all things privately to his disciples.

In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus is shown to be speaking illustrations [parables], throughout his ministry.
You can start the reading from here...
(Luke 10:23) . . .he turned to the disciples and told them privately: “Happy are the eyes that see the things you are seeing.

• (Luke 10:30) . . .Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jerʹi·cho and fell victim to robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went off, leaving him half-dead.
• (Luke 11:5) . . .he said to them: “Suppose one of you has a friend and you go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves. . .
• (Luke 12:16) With that he told them an illustration, saying: “The land of a rich man produced well.
• (Luke 13:6) Then he went on to tell this illustration: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it but found none.
• (Luke 13:18, 19) 18 So he went on to say: “What is the Kingdom of God like, and with what can I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard grain that a man took and planted in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of heaven nested in its branches.”
• (Luke 13:20, 21) 20 And again he said: “With what can I compare the Kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
• (Luke 14:7, 8) 7 He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited.
• (Luke 14:16) .Jesus said to him: “A man was spreading a grand evening meal, and he invited many.
• (Luke 15:3, 4) 3 Then he told them this illustration, saying: 4 “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it?
• (Luke 15:11, 12) 11 Then he said: “A man had two sons. 12 And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them.
• (Luke 16:1) Then he also said to the disciples: “A rich man had a steward who was accused of handling his goods wastefully.
• (Luke 16:19) “There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence.
• (Luke 18:1) Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up,
• (Luke 18:9, 10) 9 He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
• (Luke 19:11) While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly.

...and on, and on.

(Luke 20:9) . . .Then he began to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and leased it to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for a considerable time.​

It looks like the rich man and Lazarus got lost somewhere in among those, but that's because it belongs in among them.

If we revisit a few of those illustrations, we note a pattern with a few.

(Luke 15:1-3) 1 Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept gathering around him to hear him. 2 And both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3 Then he told them this illustration, saying:​

He capped that off with how God searches for even one sinner who repents

(Luke 16:14, 15) 14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 So he said to them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.​

He capped that off with the illustration of the rich man and the beggar.

Jesus had a purpose for his illustrations / parables... as the Scribes and Pharisees noted.

(Luke 20:19) . . .The scribes and the chief priests then sought to get their hands on him in that very hour, but they feared the people, for they realized that he told this illustration with them in mind.​

Something to note, for us as well.

It was prophesied that the Messiah would teach using parables, or illustrations, and this was fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:35). Parables were an identifying characteristic of his teaching. But why parables? Without question they were a powerful teaching aid. People would easily remember and share them with others. The parables were also rich, spiritual metaphors. The deeper meanings would unfold as a disciple progressed in the Christian walk.

Parables also served another purpose. Jesus explained that, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand” (Luke 8:9,10). The parables acted as a spiritual filter. Those to whom the good news was directed would understand; others would not. How privileged we are then, to be counted worthy by our Lord to understand the divine teaching hidden in his parables.

They also recognized the fact that Jesus was using parables... as is his custom.
In the book of Luke there are eleven parables that are not found in the other gospels:

There are other reasons we know these are parable... at least two reasons I can think of...
1. The way Jesus began all of them.

• A man...
• The land of a rich man...
• A rich man...
• Two men...

Just as we would tell stories.

2. The content does not contradict scripture, and the element of hyperbole, or symbolism is there.

Why would you conclude that Jesus interupted his pattern - his custom, to give a true life story, at that very point in Luke 16 though?


Why is that significant?


Where does the electricity powering your radio go?
More importantly, what is the spirit in man? Since it is not an entity, but spirit from God, obvious it goes out, but returns to God, since God is the source of life.
Without that spirit, one cannot live. Psalms 104:29, 30
If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. If you send out your spirit, they are created

Be back later.

Sorry I missed this previous post.

OK... this is your viewpoint which I have no problem with you having.

The reason for a proper name is significant is because we are talking about an actual event. It also make that story totally different than all the parables and one must have consistency in application. None of the other parables say "John went to sow the seed and some fell on hard ground". He didn't say "Mary lost a coin and she ransacked the home to find the coin". He didn't say "Fred and James were brothers and asked their father to give them their inheritance..." None and never! You must be consistent in application.

Just to say "it is a parable" because Jesus spoke in parables is paramount to saying that nothing Jesus said is actual.

When Jesus said, "Abraham saw my day - before Abraham was I am". Abraham is not a parable. He may be trying to share a truth but it is not a parable.

So I would disagree.

Psalm 104:29-30​

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

You made a wrong application. It is the body that returns to dust and when the breath is taken away, we die. No reference that your spirit is dead.

Now... ultimately, whoever is wrong doesn't change our faith results.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry I missed this previous post.

OK... this is your viewpoint which I have no problem with you having.

The reason for a proper name is significant is because we are talking about an actual event. It also make that story totally different than all the parables and one must have consistency in application. None of the other parables say "John went to sow the seed and some fell on hard ground". He didn't say "Mary lost a coin and she ransacked the home to find the coin". He didn't say "Fred and James were brothers and asked their father to give them their inheritance..." None and never! You must be consistent in application.

You claim it's an actual event Ken. My question is why.
You said something about a proper name.
You are using circular reasoning.

The reason for a proper name is significant is because we are talking about an actual event.
It's an actual event because it uses a proper name.
That's not using the scriptures.

That's trying to rationalize a belief.

Just to say "it is a parable" because Jesus spoke in parables is paramount to saying that nothing Jesus said is actual.

Well, no one said that actually.

When Jesus said, "Abraham saw my day - before Abraham was I am". Abraham is not a parable. He may be trying to share a truth but it is not a parable.

So I would disagree.

No one said Abraham is a parable. Ken, where are you?
Abraham, like the beggar and rich man, and Moses and the prophets were used in the parable.

(Luke 16:30, 31) 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”​

So, how is Moses alive during that time?

Psalm 104:29-30​

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

You made a wrong application. It is the body that returns to dust and when the breath is taken away, we die.

What did I say wrong? The spirit is taken away.

No reference that your spirit is dead.

No reference that your spirit is a living entity.

Now... ultimately, whoever is wrong doesn't change our faith results.

I think the scriptures make clear, it does.

 

[Kenny]

You claim it's an actual event Ken. My question is why.
You said something about a proper name.
You are using circular reasoning.

The reason for a proper name is significant is because we are talking about an actual event.
It's an actual event because it uses a proper name.
That's not using the scriptures.

That's trying to rationalize a belief.

you ignored my statements. You say it is a parable because Jesus spoke in parables - so it is a parable because Jesus spoke in parables THAT is circular reasoning.

Show me any of the other true parables where Jesus used actual names. Let it be confirmed by a witness of two.

you don't have one, so..... Jesus spoke in parables and that is why it is a parable.... and you list the parables... circular.

No one said Abraham is a parable. Ken, where are you?
Abraham, like the beggar and rich man, and Moses and the prophets were used in the parable.
(Luke 16:30, 31) 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”
So, how is Moses alive during that time?

Just applying your circular statements.

No reference that your spirit is a living entity.

no reference that it is dead

I think the scriptures make clear, it does.

EXACTLY!

 

[Eli G]

(...) Show me any of the other true parables where Jesus used actual names. Let it be confirmed by a witness of two.

...

You need more than just saying this parable has names to demonstarate that its content is an actual reality.

Prove that the dialogs are real, the place is an actual place for dead people, when this place was created, what happened with people before Abraham, why a rich an a poor in the story, why is Jesus talking only about Moses' Law and not about general human principles?, tell more about the details: a drop of water in the mouth?, communication between Abraham and a condemned man and Lazarus without hearing anything? how did Abraham knew about Moses? Was Abraham the guardian of that place?, what happened with that place? Where else can you read about that place in the Bible?, ... ... ...

Tell us more ... because we can show you a lot to prove you it is a parable, only based on the context.
First thing: the parable was not addressed to the followers of Jesus so its message is targeted to a specific audience.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We plainly disagree on the subject of the afterlife and earthbound spirits, Hockey Cowboy, but at least you're respectful of others who disagree with you. That is something I believe you should be recognized for. I feel good about adding you to the list of Christians I've met who actually practice what they preach, meaning they live in accordance with their professed beliefs (such as loving their neighbor as themselves and treating others the way they want to be treated). I don't mind saying that you are a good example of what a Christian should be. In my opinion, you don't badly tarnish Christianity's reputation.

Thank you for those kind words!

I have a lot of respect for you, because what you present on here, your personal experiences, can open you up to a lot of ridicule!

If I had experienced what you have, beginning since you were around six years old, I would no doubt share your views.
But I was taught a few things which I’ve accepted, because it fits with what I see happening in this world.

I just hope you’ll be careful…. the forces you are interacting with, IMO, are very powerful & deceptive, more so than humans.

I know we’re on opposite sides of the spectrum so to speak but that being said, I think you are a caring & fine person.

We do have one belief in common: that you are dealing with real entities.

Hope you and yours have a safe day, my cousin.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Thank you for those kind words!

You're welcome.

I have a lot of respect for you, because what you present on here, your personal experiences, can open you up to a lot of ridicule!

I appreciate you letting me know that, Hockey Cowboy.

To be honest, I knew I would be opening myself up to ridicule when I decided to share my personal experiences as a psychic medium and a paranormal investigator on RF. It wasn't a decision I made lightly, as RF is the first online platform where I've shared and discussed my personal experiences with the paranormal, including the first reading I ever gave, which was to my therapist at the time (read my previous post here). I'm in a few paranormal groups on Facebook, but I never talk about what I have experienced, what I believe about the afterlife, or post anything about these topics on my profile. I don't post about these topics on my profile or in the groups I'm in because I don't have anonymity on Facebook. No one else who knows me personally is aware that I'm on RF except for my husband, children, and a close friend and mentor. In real life, I don't discuss my mediumship or my experiences with just anyone.

My husband, children, and in-laws are the only people in my family who are aware of my mediumship and personal experiences. Aside from them, a few of my friends and mutual friends are also aware, but they respect my privacy and have not informed anyone else. I've been asked if I'm a medium while investigating a location, and depending on the circumstances, I've acknowledged my abilities, but I've never given out any personal information beyond my first name. Finally, I'd like to say that being a member of RF has provided me with a unique opportunity to discuss my mediumship and paranormal experiences. I've never been on a forum like it or even on Facebook (or any other social media platform) where I feel free to discuss these topics without fear of being constantly bombarded day in and day out with malicious comments questioning my sanity or constantly criticizing me for believing in the paranormal. I truly value my anonymity on RF, and I'm grateful to be a member of this diverse and unique online community. It's become my virtual haven.

If I had experienced what you have, beginning since you were around six years old, I would no doubt share your views.

I'm sure that's true as well.

But I was taught a few things which I’ve accepted, because it fits with what I see happening in this world.

I've seen and experienced supernatural phenomena firsthand that would likely scare the pants off most people.

I just hope you’ll be careful…. the forces you are interacting with, IMO, are very powerful & deceptive, more so than humans.

I exercise caution when interacting with and communicating with human spirits. I also know how to safely interact with nonhuman entities.

I know we’re on opposite sides of the spectrum so to speak but that being said, I think you are a caring & fine person.

Thank you for your kind compliment.

We do have one belief in common: that you are dealing with real entities.

We both agree on that.

Hope you and yours have a safe day, my cousin.

The same to you, Hockey Cowboy.

 

[Kenny]

You need more than just saying this parable has names to demonstarate that its content is an actual reality.

True... the conversation has been quite extensive and have covered some of those points... but don't mind covering them again. Also, please remember that the Bible isn't a compendium on all subjects but rather an overview of mankind (spiritual, mental and physical) of his beginning, current and the ending of death, Hell and the grave. Even what happens after this point is not covered so there won't be an exhaustive study of Heaven, Paradise and Hell.

Tell us more ... because we can show you a lot to prove you it is a parable, only based on the context.
First thing: the parable was not addressed to the followers of Jesus so its message is targeted to a specific audience.

This sounds more like you decision is already made and no information will be enough information. Which is fine... you can say the same thing of me too.

1. Prove that the dialogs are real, the place is an actual place for dead people, when this place was created, what happened with people before Abraham, why a rich an a poor in the story,

I think this point is a "little way out there" when you say "prove". The only proof that one can give is if you were there in Paradise.

That being said, we are talking within the context of understanding scriptures. Obviously we are trying to find significance as to what and why Jesus was saying what he said. For and example, "why a rich man and a poor man in the story". Since Jesus never said "why a rich man and a poor man", we can only try to understand and give our viewpoint. Like a painting of one of the masters of years gone by, we can only imagine what was going through the mind of a Picasso unless he specifically delineated why he painted what he painted.

So, taking those nuances in mind, I offer my understanding (I will find out if I am wrong in less that 51 years assuming I live to be 120).

My understanding is that it was their way before Abraham and had the title of Paradise. (A tern that is used by Jews) It is called "Abraham's bosom" because it was Abraham that planted the seed of his son Isaac to open the portals for the seed, Jesus, to be given so that the harvest of mankind would be secured. As the title given to him (father of the faith) implies, it was his faith that secured the grace for all of us.

Why a rich man and Lazarus?

As I read it, I find the previous scriptures the key:
"Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. " so it about riches and their lack of helping the poor.

I'm sure he was being very specific and purposeful

1. why is Jesus talking only about Moses' Law and not about general human principles?, tell more about the details: a drop of water in the mouth?, communication between Abraham and a condemned man and Lazarus without hearing anything? how did Abraham knew about Moses? Was Abraham the guardian of that place?, what happened with that place? Where else can you read about that place in the Bible?, ... ...

1) Jesus does talk about other issues in his 3+ years but in this case, he is talking to Pharisees. A specific application although He did touch on other issues before he mentioned Lazarus in Luke 16.

2) "communication between Abraham and a condemned man and Lazarus without hearing anything?" not quite understanding... so let me know if I don't hit it right.

Sometimes we project our natural experiences into the spiritual. as an example... the first time a phone was used, they said, "A voice through a wire"? It was mind boggling and many thought unbelievable. As I read scripture, I realize there are God ways of communication: Jesus "knew" their thoughts; Paul heard God's voice while others just heard noise; God's voice heard in the mind and not through the ears.

Or maybe he did hear through the ears.

3) Abraham would have met Moses in Paradise.

Abraham, as I understand it, isn't the guardian but rather acknowledged as the faith of faith because of his faith-life.

That Paradise is no longer used after Jesus was raised from the dead. Those souls are now In the paradise of Heaven - after His preaching to them the were taken to the Father's abode.

4) Where else can you read about it? Sketchy as I mentioned before that it isn't a subject developed within the history of mankind.

This is some commentaries about Luke 16:

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham; as when the mother of the seven sons, slain by Caesar, saw her youngest going to be sacrificed F16

``she fell upon him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and said unto him, my son, (Mkyba Mhrba lua Kl) , "go to Abraham, your father", and tell him, thus saith my mother''

and sometimes, as here, by being in his bosom. So it is said F17, that Eliezer his servant (Abraham's, the same name with Lazarus) (wqyxb hnwm) , "is laid in his bosom": and which may refer to the account in the Talmud F18, that when R. Benaah, the painter of caves, came to the cave of Abraham, he found Eliezer, the servant of Abraham, (hymq yaqd) , "standing before him". And it is also said

---

FOOTNOTES:

F19 of Rabbi, when he died, (Mhrba lv wqyxb bvwy Mwyh) , "this day he sits in the bosom of Abraham"; for as it was usual with them to represent the joys of heaven by a feast, so the partaking of them, by sitting down at a table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; see ( Matthew 8:11 ) and as their manner at meals was by lying along on couches at eating; he that lay next another might be said to lie, or lean, in his bosom: hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world. The ascension of Christ is expressed by a being "carried up into heaven", ( Luke 24:51 ) and here he is entered, and has been received, and will be retained, until the time of the restitution of all things; here he is glorified in human nature, sits at the right hand of God, and appears in his presence, on the behalf of his people; and indeed, the ends of his going there, were to receive gifts for them, to be their advocate and intercessor, to take possession of heaven in their name, and prepare that for them, and them for that; and hither "he was carried by angels": these were the chariots in which he rode; and these the guard that attended him, when he was seen, looked upon, and gazed at by them with adoration, faith, and wonder; which shows the ministration of angels to him, and seems to set forth the glory and magnificence in which he ascended; and this agrees with the notions of the Jews, that when good men die, their souls are immediately received by angels, and taken under their care, and carried to heaven. So one of their paraphrasts F20 having mentioned the garden of Eden, which is but another name for heaven with them, adds,

F16 Echa Rabbati, fol. 49. 4.
F17 In Sepher Emanah, c. 1. p. 20.
F18 T. Bab. Bava Bathra, fol. 58. 1.
F19 T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 72. 2. Juchasin, fol. 75. 2.
F20 Targum in Cant. iv. 12.

The Gulf Between the Two?

Ecclesiastes 7:14 ) . "God hath set the one over against the other", say F6, ``this is hell and paradise, what space is there between them? an hand's breadth; R. Jochanan says a wall, but the Rabbans say, they are both of them even, so that they may look out of one into another.'' Which passage is cited a little differently F7, thus; ``wherefore did the holy blessed God create hell and paradise? that they might be one against another; what space is there between them? R. Jochanan says, a wall, and R. Acha says an hand's breadth: but the Rabbans say, two fingers.'' And elsewhere it F8 is said, ``know that hell and paradise are near to one another, and one house separates between them; and paradise is on the north east side---and hell on the north west.'' Mahomet seems to have borrowed this notion from them, who says F9, ``between the blessed and the damned, there shall be a vail; and men shall stand on "Al Araf", (the name of the wall or partition, that shall separate paradise from hell,) who shall know every one of them by their mouths.'' ``into which no man can enter but the righteous, whose souls are "carried" thither, (aykalm dyb) , "in the hand", or "by the means" of angels.'' And elsewhere they say,``with the Shekinah come three ministering angels to receive the soul of a righteous man.'' Particularly it is said of Moses, at the time of his death, that ``the holy blessed God descended from the highest heavens, to take the soul of Moses, and three ministering angels with him.'' And sometimes they say, not only three angels, but three companies of angels attend at such a time: their words are these; ``when a righteous man departs out of the world, three companies of ministering angels meet him; one says to him, "come in peace"; and another says, "walking in his uprightness" and the other says, "he shall enter into peace"''

F6 Midrash Kohelet, fol 76. 1.
F7 Nishmat Chayim Orat. 1. sect. 12. fol. 31. 1.
F8 Raziel, fol. 15. 1.

Some believe this is also speaking of that place especially for those before Abraham:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

[Eli G]

True... the conversation has been quite extensive and have covered some of those points... but don't mind covering them again. Also, please remember that the Bible isn't a compendium on all subjects but rather an overview of mankind (spiritual, mental and physical) of his beginning, current and the ending of death, Hell and the grave. Even what happens after this point is not covered so there won't be an exhaustive study of Heaven, Paradise and Hell.



This sounds more like you decision is already made and no information will be enough information. Which is fine... you can say the same thing of me too.



I think this point is a "little way out there" when you say "prove". The only proof that one can give is if you were there in Paradise.

That being said, we are talking within the context of understanding scriptures. Obviously we are trying to find significance as to what and why Jesus was saying what he said. For and example, "why a rich man and a poor man in the story". Since Jesus never said "why a rich man and a poor man", we can only try to understand and give our viewpoint. Like a painting of one of the masters of years gone by, we can only imagine what was going through the mind of a Picasso unless he specifically delineated why he painted what he painted.

So, taking those nuances in mind, I offer my understanding (I will find out if I am wrong in less that 51 years assuming I live to be 120).

My understanding is that it was their way before Abraham and had the title of Paradise. (A tern that is used by Jews) It is called "Abraham's bosom" because it was Abraham that planted the seed of his son Isaac to open the portals for the seed, Jesus, to be given so that the harvest of mankind would be secured. As the title given to him (father of the faith) implies, it was his faith that secured the grace for all of us.

Why a rich man and Lazarus?

As I read it, I find the previous scriptures the key:
"Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. " so it about riches and their lack of helping the poor.

I'm sure he was being very specific and purposeful



1) Jesus does talk about other issues in his 3+ years but in this case, he is talking to Pharisees. A specific application although He did touch on other issues before he mentioned Lazarus in Luke 16.

2) "communication between Abraham and a condemned man and Lazarus without hearing anything?" not quite understanding... so let me know if I don't hit it right.

Sometimes we project our natural experiences into the spiritual. as an example... the first time a phone was used, they said, "A voice through a wire"? It was mind boggling and many thought unbelievable. As I read scripture, I realize there are God ways of communication: Jesus "knew" their thoughts; Paul heard God's voice while others just heard noise; God's voice heard in the mind and not through the ears.

Or maybe he did hear through the ears.

3) Abraham would have met Moses in Paradise.

Abraham, as I understand it, isn't the guardian but rather acknowledged as the faith of faith because of his faith-life.

That Paradise is no longer used after Jesus was raised from the dead. Those souls are now In the paradise of Heaven - after His preaching to them the were taken to the Father's abode.

4) Where else can you read about it? Sketchy as I mentioned before that it isn't a subject developed within the history of mankind.

This is some commentaries about Luke 16:

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham; as when the mother of the seven sons, slain by Caesar, saw her youngest going to be sacrificed F16




and sometimes, as here, by being in his bosom. So it is said F17, that Eliezer his servant (Abraham's, the same name with Lazarus) (wqyxb hnwm) , "is laid in his bosom": and which may refer to the account in the Talmud F18, that when R. Benaah, the painter of caves, came to the cave of Abraham, he found Eliezer, the servant of Abraham, (hymq yaqd) , "standing before him". And it is also said

---

FOOTNOTES:

F19 of Rabbi, when he died, (Mhrba lv wqyxb bvwy Mwyh) , "this day he sits in the bosom of Abraham"; for as it was usual with them to represent the joys of heaven by a feast, so the partaking of them, by sitting down at a table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; see ( Matthew 8:11 ) and as their manner at meals was by lying along on couches at eating; he that lay next another might be said to lie, or lean, in his bosom: hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world. The ascension of Christ is expressed by a being "carried up into heaven", ( Luke 24:51 ) and here he is entered, and has been received, and will be retained, until the time of the restitution of all things; here he is glorified in human nature, sits at the right hand of God, and appears in his presence, on the behalf of his people; and indeed, the ends of his going there, were to receive gifts for them, to be their advocate and intercessor, to take possession of heaven in their name, and prepare that for them, and them for that; and hither "he was carried by angels": these were the chariots in which he rode; and these the guard that attended him, when he was seen, looked upon, and gazed at by them with adoration, faith, and wonder; which shows the ministration of angels to him, and seems to set forth the glory and magnificence in which he ascended; and this agrees with the notions of the Jews, that when good men die, their souls are immediately received by angels, and taken under their care, and carried to heaven. So one of their paraphrasts F20 having mentioned the garden of Eden, which is but another name for heaven with them, adds,

F16 Echa Rabbati, fol. 49. 4.
F17 In Sepher Emanah, c. 1. p. 20.
F18 T. Bab. Bava Bathra, fol. 58. 1.
F19 T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 72. 2. Juchasin, fol. 75. 2.
F20 Targum in Cant. iv. 12.

The Gulf Between the Two?

Ecclesiastes 7:14 ) . "God hath set the one over against the other", say F6, ``this is hell and paradise, what space is there between them? an hand's breadth; R. Jochanan says a wall, but the Rabbans say, they are both of them even, so that they may look out of one into another.'' Which passage is cited a little differently F7, thus; ``wherefore did the holy blessed God create hell and paradise? that they might be one against another; what space is there between them? R. Jochanan says, a wall, and R. Acha says an hand's breadth: but the Rabbans say, two fingers.'' And elsewhere it F8 is said, ``know that hell and paradise are near to one another, and one house separates between them; and paradise is on the north east side---and hell on the north west.'' Mahomet seems to have borrowed this notion from them, who says F9, ``between the blessed and the damned, there shall be a vail; and men shall stand on "Al Araf", (the name of the wall or partition, that shall separate paradise from hell,) who shall know every one of them by their mouths.'' ``into which no man can enter but the righteous, whose souls are "carried" thither, (aykalm dyb) , "in the hand", or "by the means" of angels.'' And elsewhere they say,``with the Shekinah come three ministering angels to receive the soul of a righteous man.'' Particularly it is said of Moses, at the time of his death, that ``the holy blessed God descended from the highest heavens, to take the soul of Moses, and three ministering angels with him.'' And sometimes they say, not only three angels, but three companies of angels attend at such a time: their words are these; ``when a righteous man departs out of the world, three companies of ministering angels meet him; one says to him, "come in peace"; and another says, "walking in his uprightness" and the other says, "he shall enter into peace"''

F6 Midrash Kohelet, fol 76. 1.
F7 Nishmat Chayim Orat. 1. sect. 12. fol. 31. 1.
F8 Raziel, fol. 15. 1.

Some believe this is also speaking of that place especially for those before Abraham:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Thank you for taking your time to answer.

I still don't find in your comment anything proving that "Abraham's Bosom" is a literal place unless you refer to this place:

Gen. 49:29 After that he gave these commands to them: “I am being gathered to my people. Bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Eʹphron the Hitʹtite, 30 the cave in the field of Mach·peʹlah in front of Mamʹre in the land of Caʹnaan, the field that Abraham purchased from Eʹphron the Hitʹtite as a property for a burial place. 31 There they buried Abraham and his wife Sarah. There they buried Isaac and his wife Re·bekʹah, and there I buried Leʹah. (...) 33 Thus Jacob finished giving these instructions to his sons. Then he drew his feet up onto the bed and breathed his last and was gathered to his people.

... where the bodies of the deceased, including Abraham and Sarah in his bosom, were deposited.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

@Kenny, I noticed that this thread is fairly active, so I'm tagging you because I didn't want my post to you to get lost in the shuffle and overlooked.

Thank you for answering my questions, Kenny. I truly appreciate it. According to the parable, the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades, and he looked up and saw Abraham from a distance with Lazarus by his side. The parable states that the rich man cried out to Abraham, pleaded with him, and said, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ According to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. So, my questions about this parable are as follows: How did the rich man know he was being tormented in Hades? How could he have recognized Abraham or Lazarus from afar? How could he have pleaded with Abraham and had Abraham reply back to him?

If the dead know nothing, as implied in Ecclesiastes 9:5, then how does the parable harmonize with this verse, in your opinion? Finally, why do you think that there is a parable in the Bible about a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire") and was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham and plead with Abraham? Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 implies that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten, which appears to be in contrast to several other scriptures in the Bible that imply there are final rewards bestowed in heaven (like these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names are recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). Finally, I'd like to thank you for answering my questions in accordance with your beliefs.

 

[Eli G]

Actually, Paul reminded to the Hebrews:

Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God. (...) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them. (...) 39 And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

So, obviously, Abraham is still dead until his resurrection ... like Daniel still is (Dan. 12:13).